Darius West

I have since done some more looking into the origins of the Ostrich Riders and the info comes up with the Ratite Empire and the Riskesting Empire (we don't quite know if they were the same thing, or perhaps dynasties of the same Rinliddi affiliated avilry empire), and the god Veng, aka Ghevengus who is Row 1 Image 10 (Star 15) on the God's Wall near Raibanth. Given that the Riskesting Empire is pre-Time (existing in the Storm Age), and the fact we know the Ostrich Tribe have lived in Prax as Praxians since the beginning of Time, they are likely to have arrived as refugees like so many others and been rolled into the Praxian culture. I don't debate that Yamsur may well have been the original Ostrich war deity, but we just don't know. Another point that interests me is that the Pure Horse Tribe likely had dealings with the Ostriches, and we know the Pure Horse "Yelmalio" is called Jardan and like all the other Yelmalios is god of the Yellow Planet. I find the idea that we had the Mo Baustrans worshipping Tharkantus, the Pure Horse worshiping Jardan, and the Ostriches worshiping "someone" to be amusing, while the Praxians call the Yellow Planet "Sun Daughter". The same deity, likely known by 4 different names in 2nd Age Prax not to mention that Pavis had dealings with the Teshnans who may well call Yelmalio "Somash" at the same time.

That's how the God Learners get you. Theirs is the reductionist and lazy way. Maize Goddess A=Maize Goddess B, except it just ain't quite so.

Dig a bit deeper. Tharkantus is the name the people of Mo Baustra give their deity, not Yelmalio. Tharkantus is a Second Age subcult of Yelmalio, much like Balazar.

This was an especially in depth and interesting post Joerg, thanks. Obviously on Earth we know that saurians and avians are pretty close, so the moa-like demibirds could effectively be saurians and never avians. They have solid bones, not hollow avian after all, and that indicates to me that they were never fliers and were likely never meant to be. Too true. Fair enough. Can we say with certainty that demibirds existed prior to the EWF as dragonewt mounts? I mean, what if they are recent? Yes. This is where things get interesting. I had bumped into this in the Fortunate Succession, but it all gets very interesting when you chase down this rabbit hole. You meet the augner clan of Esrolia, the god Veng aka Ghevengus who created avilry (avian cavalry), the Ostriches and of course the Riskesting Empire. The info you have provided is all solid. Of course how you wind up with Dragonewt Avilry based on thick boned moas (demibirds)? As an aside, moas incidentally have bones like demibirds, but obviously evolved from avians. Did the Dragonewts learn avilry from the Ratite/Riskesting Empire? Presently we don't know. It seems fair to suppose that this is likely the best fit of when the Dragonewts might have learned avilry though.

So, we know that Demibirds are not found in the wilds. They have solid bones and only exist the property of the Dragonewts, and are thus unlike any other bird in Glorantha. Are they related to the Bird Goddess known as Verk (p8 Fortunate Succession)? Are Demibirds somehow tied into the Dragonewt path? When you think about it, they're pretty mysterious. Does anyone have a clue as to how demibirds emerged in Glorantha? If the answer is that we know nothing solid, let's propose some answers in case someone else starts asking this question.

Coming from anyone else I'd say no, TGL. You, however, are the right person to ask that question. 😄

I must disagree. Not about Belvani being a weasel, but about Argrath's attitude to New Pavis and Prax. Argrath is many things but he isn't lazy or disinterested. New Pavis is Argrath's first stronghold and primary support base in what may (in 1625-6) turn out to be an unsuccessful sally into Dragon Pass. It is from new Pavis that Argrath gathers the forces of Prax and the region to his White Bull cause. As his starting stronghold, Argrath will go to great lengths to build a lean mean fighting machine out of New Pavis, much like every successful faction does with its first base. Yes, there are greater prizes to be won, but without a strong military and economic foundation Argrath will have nowhere to turn in case of an emergency. When Argrath's forces are routed by Cwim, he is able to rapidly replenish the losses and try again. You can't do this without a solid organizational foundation. Much later in his career Argrath is driven back to New Pavis, and is able to win back everything he lost. You can't do that without having laid down a strong administrative base, a good economy, and a funnel for those resources into your war effort. I think New Pavis is going to become the "Arsenal of Prax" under Argrath.

But the Ostrich riders have been in Prax since before "Yelmalio" historically came into the region. What do they call this deity? Remember that Yelmalio is only called Yelmalio after Monrogh forms the cult from Elmal worshippers in 1565 after the recovery of the Antesmia statue imsmc. It is thus extremely unlikely that the Ostrich riders call their light deity Yelmalio.

So who converted the Ostriches to Yelmalio ? Remember that Yelmalio is a relatively recent advent in Dragon Pass, brought in by Monrogh to supplant Elmal, and thus break the subservience of Dragon Pass solar worshipers to the Orlanth Pantheon. The so-called Yelmalios of Mo Baustra (Sun County) actually follow Tharkantus, and likely only started calling their deity Yelmalio due to the need to legitimize themselves with the Lunars. The Aldryami by comparison worship the Light in the Hills, not Yelmalio, and the Balazarings follow Balazar. Yes, these deities may be Sons of the Sun, and they may have the similar mechanics to Yelmalio, but to say they are the same deity is God Learnerism. Just because two deities seem to have similar powers and a similar mythology doesn't mean they are the same deity. If you go down that line of reasoning you will wind up with the Goddess-Swap experiment, and subsequent catastrophes.

You mis-understand... Ship Handling isn't a skill so much as a perversion... 😝

Argrath literally killed all the Gods, on purpose, to usher in an age of humans. He is also the actual reincarnation of Arkat. He's unequivocally a superhero by the end imo.

£10 is a small price to pay to secure one's immortal soul. Perhaps I could interest you in a certain bridge project in the village of Lynbrook while you are here? 😉

One of the biggest hassles at Sacred Time is travelling during Storm Season to get home for the ceremonies. The roads are packed, and often troubled by weather related problems. Inns will be full up, and even floor space will be at a premium. Think Xmas or Chinese New Year. Then you finally arrive and have to contend with the family dinner table "God's War"...

So here's a question that has been much on my mind of late. What version of Yelmalio do the Ostrich tribe of Prax worship? There are obviously umpteen versions of Yelmalio, each with a different name and regional history, but what version do the Ostrich people follow? What do they call their Yelmalio? Obviously their version is nothing like the version followed in Sun County, as the pygmies haven't chosen to mass ranks of hoplites, but will more likely follow an Ostrich-Kuschile version of the god, more in keeping with their needs and traditions. Thoughts?

My party calls that a "power spanking".

Still... Careless... 🙂

*Snortlaugh* Now this is a story that should be epic in the retelling. How did someone get their Allied Spirit captured?

If you ever hear a fool complain he has too many beasts to care for, raid him.” Quote from Chuknal Khan (called "He who pulls the whiskers of Basmol") of the Avalanche (Green) Llamas.

Challenging what most people can do with a bow by bringing up Lars Andersen videos. Where have I seen this before? I would suggest you get yourself off to the Society of Creative Anachronism and do some shooting of your own to get a proper sense of what is possible. Lars Andersen is a bit of a marvel, a brilliant athlete and bow sportsman, and might be considered something of a hero level archer by Gloranthan standards. Lars claims that he has recovered techniques from Turkic horse archers and the Plains Tribes of America, and I don't dispute the possibility based on what has been written about them. They were cultures with a lot of master archers. In Glorantha we call what Lars does spirit magic like "multimissile".

I think you have a far more grandiose idea of what a sorcerous order is than I do. And anyhow, as the saying goes "To level a mountain one must first carry away small stones". You don't need to build a university, you can start with a rural kindergarten and work your way up over generations of thieves. Seriously, it is easy enough to make new spells, and not that hard to get a decent level of proficiency with a sorcery spell or two, especially if you are being trained. The more I think about it, the more I think many Zzaburi may well have their own personal cadre of thieves who do their bidding behind the scenes, much like House Tytalus in Ars Magica. Lanbril doesn't have arbitrary appetites? No rules? read the cult write up in Common Knowledge for Players more carefully. Sure, Lanbril has no spirit of retribution listed, but break the rules and see what happens. I would argue that the lack of a spirit of retribution is further proof of Lanbril's likely sorcerous origins in any case. In Malkioni lands Shamans are burned at the stake. While I completely concur that shamanic criminal organizations are and should be a thing, I think that denying a similar opportunity to sorcerers is arbitrary and ill-considered. Organizations that use sorcery for thieving lie well within the purview of what is possible.

There is no reason why an exiled or discredited zzaburi wouldn't decide to turn to crime, especially if they start with a compliment of illusion magic. Every sorcerer has the requisite intelligence to become an evil genius, even if there might be some deficits in the charisma department sometimes. Your exiled zzaburi then decides that they want to move silently and invisibly, overcome locks and barriers, and carry away large quantities of loot, while being magically undetectable. This sounds like a manageable wish list to me given what sorcery can do. All that is missing at that point is a few students who want to learn the tricks and you would have a sorcery cult run by an new enlightened master. The zzaburi just has to use spell creation to add in a lockpicking skill or a divination blocker and the matter is concluded I think. How will they finance this? By stealing money.

Fishing hooks found in Sakitari Cave in Okinawa are far FAR older. Rereading the article I can't believe that the Proceedings for the National Academy of Science uses the acronym PNAS btw. Have they never said that out loud without the implied punctuation?

A group has to start somewhere, so why not with its smallest constituent number? i.e. 1. Sorcery would potentially provide any group regardless of size with an edge that was not dependent on divine favor. Sorcery isn't hard to develop to a useable level, and if other people could see the benefits, it might encourage them to support the initial developer with a view to benefitting in the future from their research. Your position here is interesting, but perhaps the sorcerous group in question don't want to be beholden to a deity and their arbitrary appetites, spirits of retribution and rules, while also lacking access to a shaman who can offer them easy access to spirit spells? This would be a problem arising in Malkioni areas. I personally could easily see a situation where a Zzaburi forced into exile turned to crime only to become an "enlightened master" of certain specialist sorcery spells. It is not entirely impossible that this is the hidden history of the god Lanbril's emergence, given all the mechanisms and alchemy that cult is heir to. Divination Block smells of a sorcery fix to me, and Lanbril just seems like a sorcery cult pretending to be a religion.

Fishing with a hook and line is really ancient, like 22,000+ years ago ancient. It is also a lot less effective than fishing with a net (which is mesolithic). Why do I even know this stuff?

Ya know its a bit hard saying you're the Only Old One when you can wander north and find Kyger Litor still hanging out there 😉 (just trolling)