Nevermet

I agree with all of this. One of my big questions for Rokarism is given what they want to do and be, why don't they just become Brithini? I think they answer is that's more or less what they want, but the Brithini aren't about converts. So, IMG Rokarism's ideal goal is to start with "normal", mortal humans and the surviving insights of the Abiding Book after Rokar "sharpened" it, and figure out how to bend that toward the eternal stability and immortality of the Brithini.

ok, that makes sense thank you.

This may be a dumb question, but did the Middle Sea Empire have Men-of-All?

This is all helpful to me, even in Manira 😉

I keep forgetting that!

Also, I'm babbling over my paygrade. Please be gentle when you point out I have no clue what I'm talking about, but please nevertheless point it out 🙂

That feels right to me, though I'm not sure it is truly distinctive to me, as I can easily imagine a lot of Pelorian and Kathaelan adventurers whose activities can be summaries as Wandering warriors relying on their own moral compass to get things done while being sent around on missions by their superiors. So, I'm a bit lost. At lower levels, I'd imagine the big differences are a matter of context (the political landscape of Location A vs. Location B). At higher levels... I think the "anticipated" central Genertelan Hero Warrior is asked the question, "What version of Your God will you become to gain the power you want? How will becoming your god change how you use power?" I'm fuzzy what the top tier Hero Warriors of the West will be asked.

What I'm getting out of this thread as of late is that while the underlying themes of the West have remained pretty consistent for 30+ years*; the application of those themes to create a setting have often been left vague compared to the Holy Country / Dara Happa axis, and the West has been hit hard by retconning forces as Glorantha became more "consistently bronze age" (I'm putting those in quotes because it's the best phrase I can come up with but it isn't perfect). I got into Glorantha 15-20 years ago with the 1st Edition of HeroQuest, which I am increasingly aware has permanently influenced the way I think about the game world**. For this conversation, it meant I was introduced to the Rokari as "default" Malkionism, and it was an extremely literate society where magic came from ritual ceremonialists, liturgists, and orderlies. As HQ was revised, both in terms of setting & mechanics, that image of the west fell by the wayside. I don't have as much of a point as I would like to this post, but like Nick above, I feel that this discussion is better served by acknowledging the revisions that have happened to the West. * Different Gloranthan Hero Wars have different "anticipated heroes." The anticipated heroes of Dragon Pass are embodiments of gods - illuminated devotees. The anticipated heroes of Seshnela, Safelster, & Loskalm are human reformers of society, aided by Wizards with their secrets. The point is not to be Hrestol reborn, but to try to be or identify who should be the next great prophet, and to do that through action rather than study. ** This is a long point worthy of its own thread, but in short, IMHO, having Heroquest 1 be my first Glorantha game meant that (1) I assumed a much higher degree of cultural homogeneity than people before me ("It's either a theistic culture, an animist culture, or a wizardly culture"), and I started with the assumption that Glorantha was full of various, loosely coupled Hero Wars, rather than Dragon Pass being the center of gravity. I'm not claiming anyone who got into Heroquest in 2004 was guarantee to get this, but that was my experience.

I completely agree. Maniria on the whole is influenced by western culture, but not truly a western culture. The only Malkioni cultures are Ramalia, and Kaxtorplose. I genuinely have no idea what Handra qualifies as these days, and the Aulorings of Caratan are decidedly ex-Godlearner. All of this is to say that Maniria gets "partial credit" on how "western" it is. Safelster, Seshnela, and eastern Fronela all score much higher. However, I suspect Maniria will experience a the net pull toward Sheshnela and the Five Arkats than toward Dragon Pass, Argrath, & the Lunars (the Ditali may get sucked into Esrolian issues). Between the Devastation of the Vent and (especially) the sinking of Slontos, Maniria is very haunted by the Godlearners, both literally ("Hey, why doesn't anyone want to explore Lukae!?!"), and culturally. Even if most extant Manirian populations are modern day Entruli, the answer of what comes after the Godlearners is central to Maniria. The hegemony of the Trader Princes was one possible answer*, but that's failing now, as are Greymane's dreams. The Reforestation is coming, which means either Maniria is going to be entering a paleolithic New Green Age, or something is going to stop it. I admit this is me putting my thumbs on the scales a bit, but if something stops the Reforestation, I suspect it to be more "western" than Holy Country / Sartar. * I don't think it's the one Castelein The Traveller wanted, but that's a tangent-and-a-half for another thread.

I've been thinking about the question of what makes the West interesting to me for most of the day. An Age ago, the Malkioni were absolutely sure they had "cracked the code," and that they would be able to re-engineer Glorantha by dircetly controlling the basic forces of reality. They knew The Truth, and that truth gave them universal power, ambition, and hope. They were quite sure the world would be better once they healed it. They were never about a single location (The Godlearners were always defined by their multiple locations of power). Instead, no matter where you were in Glorantha, the rules were the same. And then that ended. Badly. Purple giants destroyed Sheshnela. The Sea destroyed Maniria (again). Heaven knows what horrors were experienced by the last humans of Jrustela. And, well, reality was done with all that Zistor nonsense. And since then, I think it is fair to say that the West has been defined by the question, "What next?" Obviously, some groups turned away from Malkionism in general. But Safelster, eastern Fronela, the cities of Maniria, Sheshnela, and even NW Pamaltela... everywhere has reconstruction efforts. Where exactly did we go wrong? How do we go back and make it right? Do we need to make amends to anyone? What do we need to change? What do we need to double down on? The West is haunted, culturally, by the Godlearners, by the fact they almost got it right, and how they lead to utter, inhuman doom for so, so many.

Oh, the definition completely makes sense on that level. However, the consequence of a humanism that prioritizes abstract reason over lived experiences, leading to misery and social ruin is something I think I can rightly call ironic. (I'm pretty comfortable saying that about real world history in addition to Glorantha)

This highlights the inaccuracy (irony, perhaps?) of the Malkioni occasionally being called Humanists.

Oh and on the issue of refugees, the New Coast of Maniria will have them both from the West, but also the reforested interior. Handra, Fay Jee, Kaxtorplose, & Peelo are going to get crowded.

Honestly, these sort of issues (Gender, who has what sorts of magic, etc) are at least as important for making the West playable as anything else.

Huh... I ran out of reactions for the day. I didn't know I could do that. Sorry if I have been a bit too... enthusiastic. Anyways, unsurprisingly, my initial thoughts are about how Maniria fits into all this. Other people, especially Eff, have said everything I can imagine to say about the Reforestation, except 1 thing: I think it breaks Maniria in half. For this thread, western Maniria is (obviously) more interesting, so I'll babble about that. In terms related to Western Hero Wars, I can think of 4: Aquatic Antics. If you want Godlearner knowledge, to go Maniria with SCUBA gear. The Trickster College, Lukae, it's all there... assuming you can get down there and make a deal with the Merfolk. Also, Erenplose is down there still, and that's a massively undefined mystery in Glorantha: a city sunk "by the Sea Gods" within a hundred years of the Dawn, saved by a Kolati, and never visited since Palangio did it about 1,200 years ago. Surviving Populations. Ramalia has a Godlearner sorcery library. The Low Temple of Caratan has a library of documents from Gualal. Kaxtorplose remembers Arkat better than most. It's currently undefined who originally built the Great Tower of Fay Jee. This is not a convenient place to invade. Maniria, assuming spaces don't get completely choked by plant life, would be a distant place to flee Seshnela, since land armies need to go around Tarinwood. Naval invasions are much more difficult. Also, based on everything in the Guide, one should fear the Pralori. You want to talk about Dragons? The Ryzel Hills have their own Inhuman King. They marched with Palangio to (re-)take those hills, and have been there ever since. The Godlearners didn't mess with them (IIRC they even had cautious trade at times). If someone wants to know more about Western dragons, you'd need to go there, since Dragon's Eye in Ralios has been a bit broken since Alakoring came through. Regarding Manirian Hero Wars, this will likely be a central place for fights both regarding the New Forest and the Flood. Magic of Heler will matter here, as will the myths of Severus.

This is a great - and I mean this in the best way - rant. The short version is I'm also concerned about how playable the West is, and you have a clear concern about that. Unfortunately, I've been a bit myopic in my attention, so I'm rather useless for some of the setting issues around.

Yeah, a loooot would need to be made up, which... if I was in the right mood, would be a ton of fun. In the wrong mood, it'd be agony

The West has always had a pathological desire for purity, to the point of inventing a rune for it that never existed. IMHO / IMG, a central problem with Talar investiture would be the fact that is almost assuredly far too dismissive of deities and spirits. Something central Genertela is very good at proving is that the most successful societies are multidimensional (on a magical / religious level) that Seshnela / Tanisor actively rejects.

I'm finally reading this thread... and... gah, I wish I was able to be here for its discussion.

That can be said about almost anything 😉

My week has continued being more complicated than I intended... I hope to get back here before the weekend. However, I wanted to drop off something about mountains and Law. mislar So..... Ralios and Maniria are separated from one another by the Mountains of Bad Doctrine. One of the smaller rivers in Maniria is the River of Bad Doctrine. There is a pass through them that keeps disappearing, and Ethilrist is the last person to use it. Its known occupants include Wind Children who guard a fallen fragment of the Sky Dome known as Mount Selon, and mountain Goat Hsunchen who are not Chaotic but are constantly mistaken for Broo. I don't have this worked out, but I really need to learn more about Ragnaglar, I think.

...I never occurred to me before, but now I wonder how the Aldryami Reforestation efforts in Maniria, Carmania, and (IIRC?) eastern Ralios relates to Genert and His Resurrection. sigh... I need to read so much more...

ARGH.... too many things.... I will get to this tonight!

Lodril piercing stasis through a disorderly use of law / a lawful use of disorder sounds about right to me.

It also allows me to continue ranting about Trader Prince Malkionism given that they would be all too happy to connect law to movement through harmony. [EDIT: removed excessive ranting] ....I hope you all can forgive Scott for this 😉