EricW

57 minutes ago, svensson said:

Responding to the top post...

Since heroquesting has a temporal and Godtime components, those should be addressed separately.

No living mortal [at least none that I've heard of] has encountered a portion of Wakboth the Devil and returned to tell the tale. That covers the temporal aspect.

Insofar as the Godtime component is concerned, unless you're questing specifically to confront Evil Itself encountering Wakboth means that your plan has gone horribly horribly wrong. Your survival is seriously in question at that point, and even if you survive you may have to make a literal deal with the Devil and may end up tainted by Chaos for your trouble.

You have been warned.

Is that absolutely true? 

Quote: King of Sartar

 

Argrath and the Devil

Without the facade of the Red Goddess and the Lunar Empire, the true nature of the enemy was revealed when Wakboth, the God of the Ultimate End, came forth to rule humankind.

He ascended to the throne of the North.

The righteous citizens and deities of Peloria rose in opposition to the growing evil. When they assembled they were like the Sun and burned away the polluted lives of the masses of worthless citizenry that dared to oppose them. The Army of the Emperor assembled and they marched to the Fields of Distain to fight. There, they stood as they had stood since before the start of Time, and the nation defied the Devil. Wakboth smeared the people like jelly, and after the Battle of Distain, even the gods were just food.

Then Wakboth took the crown, which was decorated with the living bodies of a thousand high priests and priestesses, each which served a god of some unthinkable vice, corruption, perversion, or mutation. The Unholy Trio were given empires to rule.

 

Perhaps Wakboth was able for a while to grant horrifying magic to a thousand high priests of unthinkable vice, corrupt, perversion or mutation and their followers? 

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

The Devil is in the mundane world — oozing evil from under the Block or from every field and particle of temporal reality — so is present in time, sure. Is time or the temporal world, perhaps. It is in the otherworlds that the Devil is — according to this take — absent. To have cult, you need an otherworld presence, right? If you are trapped in this one, no dice.

I am not trying to push this view on anyone. I am just trying to make sense of something Jeff wrote. It might not be what he intended, at all. Seems to work so far, but when the decisive experiment disproves it, we can all go down the pub. 😉

Surely the Devil does have otherworld presence in the sense that you can encounter the devil on appropriate heroquests.

My theory has always been that chaotics who successfully heroquest to change the outcome of a key encounter with the devil or other major chaos entity, to try to bring a piece of the devil's power back to the mundane world, they find it difficult to return to time. For them chaos won, and the ultimate outcome of paths where chaos won is destruction. 

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Seems unsupported (also, it’s 600, right?) - when in the Second Age would that have happened?

Yep, I'll withdraw that one, I can't recall the source. 

On 4/13/2024 at 2:43 AM, mfbrandi said:

I guess — I don’t claim to be any kind of expert — that you do it with proxies, with someone “identifying as” Wakboth, as W his bad self is out of commission. The question then is, who is the proxy if a Wakboth cult is not currently viable? Who plays the rôle of a god besides their cultists? I freely confess that the answer is above my pay grade. (I imagine one meta-reason for a cult of Wakboth being declared impossible is to prevent PC diabolists.)

Argrath’s LBQ — like its prototype — is different because at that point the Devil is loose.

What about every 500 years the devil returns?

Given it is still possible for people to be destroyed by chaos, and for powerful chaos gods to arise inside time and threaten the compromise, Wakboth is still influencing the world. But only the most powerful and lucky heroquesters can penetrate the truth which is the fabric of this world, to find the devil at the base of creation?

The manifestation they bring back to the world needn’t look like Wakboth, the embodiment of the chaos rune can present itself in other forms?

On 4/8/2024 at 8:55 AM, Akhôrahil said:

This is an interesting suggestion, because they can be defeated in physical combat, on HeroQuests. Perhaps it's rather that you need the correct mythical framework (I don't know exactly who the Bad Man is, but shouldn't he be vastly stronger if he's the enemy of someone divine or godlike? this suggests that a mythic frame has been created where a would-be shaman has a chance of fending him off).

Isn't facing the bad man part of awakening a fetch? Or maybe the horned man, for chaotic NPCs awakening a fetch?

Surely in a sense awakening a fetch must be a mini hero quest, at least as much as any initiation ceremony is. 

If a shaman meets a god on the spirit plane, are they protected by the compromise? Is there a risk of meeting a god who is not fully bound by the compromise, like encountering Wakboth if a Shaman wanders the spirit plane in Prax? Are gods accompanied by large spirits who might not feel bound to respect the compromise?

On 4/5/2024 at 5:37 PM, Darius West said:

While we know Agimori are the children of Lodril and generally worship Foundchild the hunter, there is never any mention of the Agimori employing dogs in their hunting.  Do Agimori employ dogs in their hunting? 

I personally think they don't.  Agimori are noted as taking a particular delight in hunting, and dogs would make that easier, perhaps too easy, which doesn't correspond with the Agimoris' regime of training hardships.  For this reason I don't think Agimori Foundchild worship includes Brother Dog. 

I am interested in people's opinions on the matter.

Dogs are natural hunters, who love gluttony and mischief and hearth fires, yet are fiercely loyal to their masters. I would have thought they would be natural companions? 

Are there any gods who only communicate through priests and rune lords, whom a shaman cannot contact and worship?

Firearms are interesting from a combat POV. It's pretty difficult to aim and fire if someone is gripping your hand, gaining control of the weapon is what I was taught in martial arts, though I never got to black belt. But the further you are from the target the better your chances of a clean shot, though beyond point blank range, aiming becomes more important. 

So if someone is 1ft away and aware you are trying to shoot them, I would have no problem applying a penalty compared to say being 7ft away. 

Thed could have been Ragnaglar's daughter by Ernalda - that would make the whole devil conspiracy especially yucky. 

If Broyan was marching on the New Lunar Temple, the march would have occurred on more than the mundane plane. Broyan would have already been spending his evenings grappling with Lunar defences on the heroplane, and heroquesting for magical abilities to weaken Lunar defences. The Lunars on their part would be busy deploying all sorts of exotic magic and conducting dangerous heroquests to spiritually pacify the vast area of effect of the new temple, and mine the vast magical potential under the temple to fuel their sorcery. It's no mystery Broyan encountered something horrible. Broyan might even have been torn apart by his own guilt made manifest - seems like a very Lunar thing to do. 

13 hours ago, JonL said:

 

Range is still limited to your immediate area, but if the local bureaucracy's been subverted by Karshti or something, things are going to get rough. I wonder how sensitive they are to less Chaos-rune-active social anathema stuff like secret murder, sexual assault, or kin slaying? Black Fang's runes are Death & Spirit, but secret murder is kind of their thing. Serial rapists can eventually turn into Broo. Can a sufficiently corrupt official eventually pick up Karshtid features? How far down such a road can someone go before they ping Uroxi-sense?

I think enormous chaos would normally ping the sense chaos from a distance because it affects a large area? Like the magical presence of the bat affects a large area around the bat?

As for chaotic behaviour I suspect you need to have begun to transform into a chaos being, have an actual chaos taint to ping the bull sense, like developed a chaos feature. Otherwise Krjalki who cast conversion would ping the bull sense, even though the book of magic says they do not.

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

According to the Bestiary, the Bat only has animal intelligence. I doubt this is consistent with being Illuminated.

The goddess “cured” the bat, which probably involved illumination? Maybe she chaos gifted the bat intelligence for long enough so the bat could answer a bunch of riddles? Or just mind linked and did it directly somehow

If illumination teaches that law and chaos are interchangeable, yet Storm Bull's sense chaos implies that chaos is something separate and different which can be sensed, how can an illuminated Storm Bull believe law and chaos are the same thing, yet still be able to sense chaos?

21 hours ago, Darius West said:

Hmm, I doubt Arkat was born a superhero.  I think he was just good at rolling his ups, especially after his skills went over 100%. 😆

As for your point about Waha doing a great deal but only having very limited rune magic to show for it, I heartily agree.  I give Waha Khans the ability to tie special knots that can control hostile elementals, called The Knots That Catch.

 

Maybe Waha is the the law equivalent counterpart of Cacodemon, a divine intervention option is to summon avatar of Waha. 

10 hours ago, Super Thunder Bros. said:

@EricW Thank you! Exploring cults is certainly a big draw for me. The characters are beginning to get fleshed out so this is more of me unsure where to set things geographically/thematically and how to start.  

Keep it low powered. Like a whodunnit, with a secret Malia worshipper spreading disease in the village (just as well one of your PCs chose to be a shaman right? Shaman characters have special abilities to fight disease spirits). Even worse, some villagers are protecting the Malia priest, because the priest has convinced them he/she is actually working in their best interests, placating the goddess of disease, rather than a futile attempt to engage costly healers to properly root out the problem. 

There are plenty of other low powered threats, like someone in the village who is secretly collaborating with the Lunars - though you could make it morally ambiguous, when they finally find the traitor, the traitor could explain they only cooperated because the Lunars are holding their son hostage (are they telling the truth?!). Perhaps if their son is being held, he is being illegally detained by a corrupt local commander.

Obviously the PCs can't take on an entire garrison, but just as well one of the PCs is a trickster - and can use invisibility to sneak in and rescue to hostage.

Or maybe the Sage PC (just as well one of your PCs chose Lhankor Mhy) realises they can mount a legal challenge to this illegal detention, and use the Lunar courts to expose a commander who is using corrupt means to accuse wealthy locals of sedition, so he can enrich himself by looting their goods. They might even meet a Lunar official who is concerned about the corruption, and the effect corruption is having on local acceptance of imperial rule, and is grateful for the help of the PCs in exposing and rooting out corrupt officials.  

Eventually when characters gain power they could take on more powerful enemies, and begin to interact with great events.

If you start too powerful, in the first session "OK, I swing my sword of ultimate permanent death at JarEel the Razoress, the greatest living Lunar hero, and the Lunar empire is defeated". So what do you do next? 

Encourage roleplaying. Everyone power gaming is just tedious. Encourage players to explore unusual cults like Trickster or shaman, even though they are not necessarily that good at killing things. If you end up with a monoculture party of Humakti death lords, every scenario is "we draw our swords and kill it" - then they get stuck when more subtly is needed. 

On 2/18/2024 at 1:05 AM, Darius West said:

Something that we haven't discussed before afaik is the fact that during the First and Second Ages, Waha took a physical body in Prax.  We are also told that the "Greatest Khan" in Prax at any time is imbued with a portion of Waha's power.  Is this the same thing?  Or was Pavis and the Faceless Statue's defeat of Waha in the Second Age the defeat of Waha as an actual incarnate superhero?  That tale specifically mentions Waha being hamstrung by the Faceless Statue and cured by Pavis, which is hard to do without a physical body to attack   It is certainly possible for Waha to be incarnate, given that He is the direct ancestor of many Praxians, and hence can be summoned to possess them via Daka Fal rituals.  It can be argued that Waha is a comparatively minor deity, no more powerful than Harrek, Jar-Eel, Androgeus, or Belintar, and thus can become incarnate without affecting the Great Compromise, given that he was potentially alive and incarnate at the Dawning like Androgeus. 

I am interested in other people's opinions on this.

Arkat was a superhero who underwent apotheosis, so he did walk the mundane plane, then he left. Then he returned in a confusing way, the multiple Arkats. Or maybe Argrath is his true avatar. 

Maybe they're all avatars of Arkat. Perhaps apotheosis is something which superheroes who want to uphold the integrity of Glorantha have to do, to prevent the return of the gods war. 

The interesting thing for me is the avatar suggestion hints at higher Waha powers which can be accessed. Waha did some pretty impressive things for a minor deity, he cleansed Prax of the lingering presence of Wakboth after Storm Bull crushed the devil under the block. But few of these feats are reflected in the rather sparse collection of rune magics Waha worshippers seem to access. So Avatars of Waha might have access to some interesting anti-chaos powers, and heroic abilities to change the courses of waterways and other interesting feats, which could be pretty useful in a desert. 

43 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Black stars, darker than the surrounding Darkness.

OK, I'll bite - what strange magics to these blacker than black stars grant to worshippers? If normal stars are light in darkness, what does darkness in darkness do for those who follow this esoteric spiritual path? Can you visit these hell stars?

You could have a lot of fun with murders in CoC. If players fixate too strongly on the wrong NPC, have the NPC turn up dead, if you can possibly do so in the framework of the scenario. "Oops, got that one wrong..." 

I would interpret "acting chaotically" as a small chance of receiving a special visitor during holy day ceremonies. Unknowingly including someone who has behaved in a particularly vile way in a holy ceremony, even as a lay member, is an invitation to spiritual pollution, a weakness in the fabric of the ceremony which could allow chaos to seep in. Of course, a particularly wicked person would be in immense danger if they accepted the chaos boon in the middle of a holy day ceremony, any hero quest re-enactment which involved defeating evil could draw in the newly minted chaotic as the ritual enemy. Which sounds like a great reason to perform such ceremonial challenges and re-enactments of defeating evil. If the challenge is answered by someone unexpected, the village has just discovered hidden chaos in their midst. 

This could also explain why the Lunars have such a hard time dealing with hidden chaotic abuses, compared to Orlanthi. Lunar ceremonies don't draw hidden chaotics into real danger the way Orlanthi ceremonies do. 

17 hours ago, Nozbat said:

Should those cults have a counter ability of Stormbull? My thoughts as a house rule would be to give specific cults, like Krarsht, an ability to go undetected and make it an opposed roll with one acting against the other. 

Krjalk the traitor has hidden chaos abilities. The Conversion of Chaos spell grants a beneficial chaos feature without an obvious mutation, but does not automatically taint the user with detectable chaos, even if used more than once. The new version of the spell only lasts a day, but the old version is permanent, which I think was more fun. So the temptation is you get a beneficial chaos feature with no apparent drawbacks, but every time you are touched by chaos you have a cumulative risk of becoming an obvious chaos mutant. 

12 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I assume a runic rating in the Chaos Rune would be enough to set off the Sense Chaos with a strength depending on the actual rating.  Receiving a Chaos Feature or Chaos Gift is sufficient to confer a Chaos rune rating.  I think that joining a chaotic cult would be be similar with a minimum of 20% (based on the Telmori description in the RuneQuest Glorantha Bestiary).

 

If initiating into a chaos cult sets up sense chaos, what about propitiatory initiation into Malia? Or is Malia not chaotic anymore (hard to keep track)?

There is a strong motivation to allow friendly strangers to visit temples, the more people who worship at a temple, the closer the god is to the temple, and the greater the magic worshippers at the temple can access.

Of course any fear the stranger might be hostile would trump this motivation to bring the god closer with more worship.

i think lycanthropy is a bit redundant with chaos, Krjalk (including the Hellwood variant) and the Red Moon already offer hidden chaos spells. Casting a few Chaos Gift spells would be every bit as terrifying as a lycanthrope transformation. Having said that you could easily work it in as a special chaos feature, or a gift which can be obtained via some horrific ritual. 

39 minutes ago, Techpriest said:

So Stormbull's cult is the CIA Special Activities Division Special Operations Group?

More a local vigilante militia taking on local gangsters so others can enjoy more safety