Tcneseis

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Solar traditions of the East are ancient - the God Learners understood Vith and Kralori TarnGatHa as Aether, and Kralori HeenMaroun as Yelm (or possibly the Solar Emperor). Metsyla was the Phoenix Emperor, clearly a Solar figure. He is the Kralorelan equivalent of Antirius.

I meant that they are still alive. I think neither the God Learners nor Sheng Seleris changed them very much, but i may be wrong (see for instance, The Fortunate Succession).

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

The connections existed in the Golden Age.  Govmeranen has the same runes as Yelm for example. 

Yes, they seem basically similar, although the general approach is quite different.

20 hours ago, metcalph said:

No.  Illumination is associated with the Infinity Rune and Nysalor's tradition (which is derived from Yelm) approaches it through the Fire (or Light Rune).  It could be used for chaotic means

Is it in Heroquest Glorantha?

20 hours ago, metcalph said:

Dragons teaches Illumination (Infinity Rune through the Dragon Rune).  Metsyla's illumination is different as he represents the old solar tradition.

As a matter of fact, what about Dayzatar?

I don't think Kralorela has tight connections with the Dara Happan Empire, notwithstanding what mythologies may imply, it's not always wise to draw inferences from it. What is believed true in the East may conflict with what is believed true in Peloria, even if both claim to know the truth. Is the solar tradition of Kralorela old? I think it is contemporary.

On 4/18/2021 at 1:28 PM, metcalph said:

As for the Illumination, the text implies that Arkat's Illumination was Nysaloran but this may not be so.  People were illuminated before the Sunstop - it being a mystical insight conferred by Yelm).  In addition, people who followed the Dragons, the Sages of the Eastern Isles etc could also said to be illuminated.  So the Elves of Brithos could have been attempting something during the Sunstop and so created an independent mystical tradfition.  

Is Nysaloran Illumination potentially or completely Chaotic? There is a great conflict between Arkat and Nysalor, which this version of illumination ignores. I don't understand the reasons for saying Arkat was illuminated.

I thought that in Kralorela, where Dragons are worshiped, Illumination was taught by Metsyla, who is not the recommended Kralorelan option.

On 10/11/2019 at 1:44 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

Notably, the vengeance of the assassinated Red Emperor comes in the form of... the Tax Demons.

Perhaps if the creditor pays his debt (including some financial penalty), the Tax Demons will show clemency.

On 10/11/2019 at 1:44 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

I'm not 100% sure what that means but I'm pretty sure it means you better be scrupulous in honoring the throne with offerings if you are going to try to replace His Majesty's current body.

I'm not sure. You could grab the throne then cancel your own debt. I have no idea who the Tax Demons obey in the empire, but in my opinion, some people are loyal enough to the Emperor, others are not. So the process could be a little more similar to how Khordavu gained the Princes of the Ten Tests' loyalty in the First Age.

19 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Try not to think "taxes" as that is very modern.  It's very much a tribute-for-protection arrangement, and can go in multiple directions and along both material and magical lines.

The Guide calls them taxes. Can the satraps or the emperors pay such tributes-for-protection? That would mean they are trying to buy powerful enemies, but it's not the same thing.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

1 hour ago, Tcneseis said:

If it's a question of power, it should be harder.

Who is more powerful than the Emperor's temporal representative?  

Certainly, but in that case clan loyalties to a priest rather than to the Satrap may cause serious trouble in the Satrapy.

Powerful temples like the Temple of the Reaching Moon or Hwarin Dalthippa are strategic. Their loyalty shouldn't be questionable. Both extend outside the areas controlled by Satraps. But the natives provide some of the resources needed to work the temples. Other, less powerful temples, can be managed from within a Satrapy. Non-Lunar temples can be required to pay taxes. Now, maybe the temples are not organised in economic networks and pay their taxes to different local rulers, but the empire may have an incentive to deal with these networks directly. Appius Luxius, who oversees the Lunar Provinces, has this type of relation with the Emperor. Maybe I've missed a reference somewhere.

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

For example, the question is not whether the Temple of the Reaching Moon should pay tax to the Satrap but whether the Satrap has managed to make the Temple to pay tax to him.

If it's a question of power, it should be harder.

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Temple Priests in addition to their deity have clan loyalties.  Any Satrap worthy of his title should be able to lean on a clan or two in order to make the temple cough up some money.    In RW history, this is where religious institutions got the incentive of forging charters to give them tax-free status

Yes, I see.

14 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Emperor may have granted an exemption but that can be eroded.  First the Satrap asks for a donation.  Then the donations become regular.  Then the regular donations are formally recognized as a tax.  

I doubt that the Temples of the Reaching Moon pay any tax. Then you have cases like Etyries' cult. Isn't it rather individual merchants who should pay a tax on their profits to whatever authority is able to control them? Hwarin Dalthippa's cult brings many benefits and is a sacred duty, so I don't understand how secular powers would be able to levy tax on her temples. 

14 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

the satrap owes worship as a representative of the satrapy's inhabitants, not as a representative of the Emperor. a patron god is worshipped by those it benefits, like the leader of the lands it protects. it's separate. their office responsibilities are not solely as a tool: they too have personal responsibilities.

Ok. Then the office of priest is conferred on the satrap, not by the Emperor, but by the Sylilan people.

14 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

this is how nobility works: bribery

Is it necessary to convince a tributary king? In my opinion, Hwarin Dalthippa's cult should be exempted from taxes to the Provincial kings, though the Emperor may collect his cut of the tithes. 

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

A good marriage of an offspring into a provincial kingdom helps secure allegiances with those places. If the offspring gains position in one of the local temples (e.g. of the Conquering Daughter), then they will be channeling tribute from that temple not only to the provincial king, but also to the high priest of the Conquering Daughter (aka Satrap of Sylila). And they will marry in offspring from the provincial kings, perhaps as officers in military regiments that the satrap supports, perhaps in temples such as Issaries, Etyries, Lhankor Mhy, Irrippi Ontor, etc. There's a whole web of obligations and tribute and loyalties created.

I don't know how strict this would be. Why would the temple owe any tribute to the Provincial kings?

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Certainly the case. I was just noting that the Satrap of Sylila IS the high priest of the Conquering Daughter. Politics and religion are not separate, but reinforce each other. 

Suppose the satrap is actually invested with a heavy religious burden, like this -- the Red Emperor rules Sylila, with the satrap as a representative. But otherwise the satrap is the Red Emperor. Now Hwarin Dalthippa is the Emperor's daughter. But the Red Emperor cannot be his own daughter's high priest, because she should worship him, not the other way round. So the satrap cannot either.

I think there are other ways to confirm a political marriage than to set up a priesthood. The groom could assume the military command of a friendly foreign troop in the bride's kingdom, for example. But there are many cases of magical religious alliances in Glorantha so I like this suggestion.

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

15 hours ago, Tcneseis said:

Their families may be more like rich merchants than traditional Orlanthi nobles.

Probably better association is as hereditary temple/cult leaders. 

I see. The Hwarin Dalthippa cult is their main job in Sylila. I'm not sure I understand this very well. I don't think it's a major satrapal duty, but it makes sense that the relationships with the Provinces allow them to arrange marriages, though other cults are available.

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

If it wasn't for the Conquering Daughter, and the region's strength and independence through those wanes, Sylila would likely be very similar to the other provincial kingdoms, particularly Tarsh. But Hwarin was a daughter of the Red Emperor, and she is the protective goddess of Sylila, so that makes a distinction.

The Sylilan emphasis on Odayla too, makes them different, but I understand that they have the same marriage customs.

The satrap is not a native from Sylila but he is able to form alliances with royal dynasties in the Provinces. It's true King Pharandros was not really a typical Tarshite. Their families may be more like rich merchants than traditional Orlanthi nobles.

33 minutes ago, Joerg said:

It isn't quite clear to me who exactly is the land-holder under Lunar or Dara Happan law. Are there individuals with the title to the land as a person (rather than as the holder of an office), or is land ownership bound to the family (and the patriarch or matriarch of the family)?

If as in Orlanthi culture land is held by virtue of the upper echelon's agreement, then Sylila and the Provinces cannot work together very well.

On p319, in the box on the Errio-unit, they are said to be related by marriage with barbarian ruling houses from the Provinces.

Don't such marriages come with gifts of lands or something?

If the Errio-unit marry Provincial noble daughters, they may take them home in Sylila, but they may also receive lands in the Provinces and own them.

The reverse would also apply.

Now Sylila is not really owned by the Errio-unit clan. They rule it with the Emperor's agreement.

21 hours ago, EricW said:

What if they are all seeking the perfect set of chaos features?

I like Pocharngo's cult striving towards perfection. Maybe you mean like alchemists? I'm not sure it is consistent with the deity though.

On 7/31/2019 at 9:14 PM, Joerg said:

Pocharngo isn't the only chaos entity causing mutations - the Devil under the Block caused the drastic changes to the pond snails which now are feared as dragonsnails.

On 7/31/2019 at 9:14 PM, Joerg said:

Pocharngo isn't the only chaos entity causing mutations - the Devil under the Block caused the drastic changes to the pond snails which now are feared as dragonsnails.

Yes it is not clear how chaos may (randomly or not) manifest itself in places where it's building up. There is also Thed's Chaos Spawn spell.

I suppose that the buildup may be of Primal chaos, which is rather energetic than material. But then again, Wakboth being buried in the place had an effect.

It reminds me that Time was created by Arachne Solara's eating Kajabor. So Primal chaos is, in a way, ever flowing through the web of Glorantha in a domesticated form.

47 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Well Primal Chaos can't really exist. It, too, breaks the compact, which means the Gods just smite it. It oozes in.

Yes it does. Chaos worshippers have access to it.

48 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Pocharngo just gives you, like, cancer. Radioactive, Chaotic cancer. So in that sense it's a spectacularly dangerous monster. You can stab broo; they are an enemy we know how to fight. Fighting a Pocharngo attack? Who has the equivalent of the Storm Bull but White Ladies?

I agree. I mean it's a very basic form of chaos, unlike most others. So I graded it as much simpler-minded.

Thank you for your answers. I told myself that maybe Chaos features sprout from something deeper than Pocharngo's mutations. It's difficult to tell Chaos horrors apart. Their cults too. In my opinion the general physical destruction caused by Pocharngo is far more primal than Chaos features. But this doesn't agree with the psychology of Chaos, where Primal Chaos is the basest form.

Hi

I'd like to know if the mutations caused by Pocharngo are related to Primal Chaos, which should imply some magical properties or maybe some danger when handling them.

My sources say that Dehore is at the top of the hierarchy of the Dehori, but that genealogical connections are not very strict in the Darkness. Some beings have to be difficult to classify.

On 6/27/2018 at 1:34 PM, Joerg said:

Many of the top tier families of the Lunar nobility were founded by (or recognized as) children of the Red Emperor,

Isn't he chosen among one of many competing families after Sheng Seleris's empire?

Some may have connections with the former Red Emperor's family. I think he reigned for about 200 years or more.

On ‎28‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 12:59 PM, Joerg said:

I still wonder what suggested the turn of years in Godtime. We are told that Godtime is cyclical, but what does that mean?

Cycles of harvesting and of following beast migrations (whether wild or domesticated) are dictated by the terrestrial year. We know that the people of Dara Happa and of Brithos had cultures based on a majority of people engaging in agriculture.

I wonder how their put up with the birth of Time after all the God-given orders their ancestors followed.

16 hours ago, metcalph said:

Strikingly I wouldn't be complaining if Caladraland were mentioned to have a constitution because those were pretty common in the mediterranean.

This might be why the name has changed. Why not the laws of some Germanic tribes of the late Roman Empire? Weren't constitutions mostly an urban evolution?