Tcneseis
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Posts posted by Tcneseis
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1 hour ago, Joerg said:
The God Learners are something like the opposite of mystics. They did so through experiment and reductionist analysis followed by optmistic over-generalization rather than through a holistic approach. While their basic methods like the Runequest Sight lasted, the method yielded results, although it also caused collateral effects. So they analyzed the collateral effects and minimized those as much as they could. Like eliminating the mythical antibodies called up by their meddling rather than modify their meddling.
It may explain why Valastos of the Seven Pens' warnings were not taken seriously.
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5 hours ago, davecake said:
From a practical sense, the illuminate not only is able to easily understand and discard the difference between ultimately similar but irreconcilable positions (such embodying both Love and Death), but also positions that seem to involve understandings of the world that are so contradictory as to be normally meaningless nonsense (what does it mean for the concept of algebraic permutation to have a fruitful marriage to this mountain?), and so can navigate between those parts of the otherworld that are normally incompatible.
The contradictions between the theistic and sorcerous worldviews were not an obstacle to the God Learners, though, who did exactly that.
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21 minutes ago, Joerg said:
While there is no knowledte hidden from the Knowing God, not everything is researchable in his mundane libraries. His library in the God Realm/Essence Plane is a different proposal, but I suppose it takes a major quest through L-Space to get there.
What about divination, in first resort?
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The runes are inspired from Germanic culture. Did the Theyalans (and other First Council members) know of them at the Dawn?
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Humans who live on the shore don't understand the merfolk as anything but an Elder Race. Like the other Elder Races, they are closer to their element than humans can ever be.
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On 08/08/2017 at 8:22 AM, Joerg said:
Nothing of this tells us about the Lendarshi horse warlord tribes, though, or how Lenshi came to be part of Dara Happa by the reign of Anirmesha (according to the Guide p.127). The noble houses created by the companions of Lendarsh might have been assimilated and become Idovanic rulers.
According to the Entekosiad, the Lendarshi seem to have merged with the different social classes and tribes of Pelanda, giving up their nomadic ways.
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52 minutes ago, metcalph said:
Elves did fight against humans in the wars of the World Council against the Horse Emperors of Peloria (Glorious ReAscent and Fortunate Succession).
The Horse nomads' ancestors originated in the plains to the north of the Elder Wilds according to the map in FS p. 4. There were a lot of trolls there in the First Age, so I guess that the World Council of Friends was really far-reaching.
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To learn about Greenwood, Greatwood or the Elder Wilds reminded me how primeval First Age Glorantha is. It was mostly wild lands until humans started settling it. Certainly there were lots of animals, birds, etc. which means most human clans could live by hunting.
However, it could not be possible until the world recovered well enough from the Great Darkness.
The start of the first wars between elves and humans seems to be during the Gbaji Wars in Ralios.
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The volcanoes are not far, so it's very suitable for Lodrilli.
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20 hours ago, Joerg said:
The old essay on horses in Glorantha had a special breed of sered horses associated to Yuthuppa, so there have to be sufficiently dry pastures in Esvuthil. Buserian is by his name and history the Sacrificer of Cattle, so it can be assumed that there will be cattle breeding in the neighborhood of the city. However, I strongly doubt that the Dara Happans have any cities predominantly relying on herds for their sustenance. Farming tends to yield more food per area.
Redalda (or Gamara) and Avarnia were, respectively, the nurturers of Nivorah and Verapur, and are not grain or plant goddesses either. Others might be, for instance Biselenslib of Alkoth is connected with weeds, and perhaps frogs and worms and the river banks, but I think people there prefer Everina the goddess of rice. The word "thil" may mean something like pasture indeed, although another goddess such as Pela may prevail among peasants.
20 hours ago, Joerg said:If you look at the other nurturers, none of these are associated with a personal grain. Dendara is anything but an agricultural deity, her role is that of wifely fidelity and giving birth to strong sons.
The highest virtue prevails. Her role seems to merge with that of Antirius as protector and possibly the epitome of male virtues, which makes the nurturer/protector duality merely a male/female division of the city cult.
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On 11/07/2017 at 6:34 PM, Joerg said:
Thilla does fulfill the land goddess tasks - from the text I would guess for significant parts of Peloria in general, and for the surrounds of Yuthuppa in particular. Given its position smack-dash in the rice-growing area of Peloria, I expect paddies with a few dam ways in between, interrupted by canals for boating, and a few broad roads that may even accommodate gazzam (even though Yuthuppa is the newest of the three Tripolis metropolises - Raibanth has roads that have trembled under the footsteps of Gazzam carrying howdas or heavy loads).
On 11/07/2017 at 6:38 PM, jajagappa said:It's unclear what the extent of Thilla's position is. Certainly Yuthuppa and immediate surroundings, but not sure about beyond that, and not sure she really has the land goddess aspect which is often the granting of sovereignty.
On 11/07/2017 at 8:26 PM, Joerg said:On the Gods Wall, Thilla is another name for Oropum on 1-25, one of three deities in the same costume in the top row (at the end of it), besides a separate mention as position 12 in the third row (and heavily criticized in the comment). Looks like Plentonius was confused about this. Herustana doesn't appear on the Gods Wall, and how should she when her husband Anaxial doesn't, either.
Thilla is probably based on the same root as Esvuthil, Velthil and Althil, the northeastern lands of Dara Happa and Rinliddi, mentioned in FS mostly on the maps.
Animals may graze here and Thilla might be an animal mother like Redalda and Avarnia (the Gods Wall suggestion would be misleading).
Rye grows in cold regions. But Lesilla is another possible candidate as goddess of rye, with her city of Mernita being the furthest north in the empire in the Dominion of Antirius.
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8 hours ago, David Scott said:
I must of missed this. Where's the reference?
On p. 41, "Housing".
QuoteLodrilli villagers live in houses made of mud-brick, reeds, or timber, depending on the local resources. Village houses are small and tightly packed together, often forming clusters of adjoined houses with the rooftops used as pathways, and the dwellings accessed by hatches in the ceiling using ladders or stairs.
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It seems flat-roofed houses do not fit very well with the climate of Peloria. Where on Earth are they found where it's rainy?
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On 23/06/2017 at 8:44 AM, Joerg said:
The Thinobutans inherited their outrigger sailing from a Sendereven shiip far off their usual course. We know that the Waertagi were active near Maslo because of their presence at the Edrenlin archipelago where some city ships were beached and presumably destroyed.
It was after the Closing, so the presence of an ancient base here is speculative.
On 23/06/2017 at 8:44 AM, Joerg said:It is likely that they had a war with the Artmali of Fonrit before the arrival of Garangordos, and that they were instrumental in putting the blues of those lands into their wretched state that enabled Garangordos enslavement of the land. Thinokans and Masloi may have had their own hostile encounters when straying away fro their coasts.
Not until they were able to recover from their destruction at the hands of Sshorg's children, after which they were likely under firm Ludoch supervision in the Maslo and Marthino Seas. The question is did they fight against the Ludoch and win?
There are chances that the Maslo, using their famous outriggers, could soon enough come and go between their ports and Teleos and perhaps the East Isles with little Waertagi interference. IMO, when they were able to sail out of the Maslo Sea, they looked around for Sharzu as the Waertagi are doing for Brithos. The Waertagi perhaps had serious engagements for control of this area, on a par with their great war against Mokato.
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On 21/06/2017 at 8:17 PM, Joerg said:On 21/06/2017 at 6:14 PM, Tcneseleis said:
They are able to live at sea for a very long time and almost do not need to land. When they come near inhabited lands, and usually their dragonships never enter ports, it's for trade or perhaps occasional raids, so I favour the beach landing theory, using large canoes, as in the Aftal story.
Aftal's city was quite degenerate after having been beached and anchored for most of the Closing. The Waertagi used ot have a great variety of support craft that didn't work well around the beached city ships, and either were lost to the Closing or cannibalized for repairs of their city ships. Waertagi in canoes is about as sophisticated as Praxian beast riders on foot.
They could last for quite a long time. The city ships might work as small islands. They probably had tanks for rainwater, or used magic to produce it, and might grow some vegetables and raise fowl or other small animals on their giant ships. But considering their anatomy and usual environment, they may have a diet of fish, seagull eggs, algae, etc.
I think it's stated in the Guide that they used other types of ships too. But canoes are not so bad if only short distances have to be covered. I think about islanders who live in archipelagoes, or just rowboats used for beach landing.
On 21/06/2017 at 8:17 PM, Joerg said:QuoteThe Waertagi are afraid of the land, and they don't go too far IMO. If they met any serious resistance, they wouldn't insist and risk dying to the last man. It is likely they'd seek mercenaries' help in such situations.
Those mercenaries would have to be ferried in, and they'd be corrupted by interaction with the enemies of the Waertagi, acquiring knowledge of overseas cultures. Unless the Waertagi brought them along with their families as settlers in the new lands, they would have to strand these mercenaries away from their homes.
There are known cases where the Waertagi aided emigrants e.g. from Slontos or Jrustela to establish new colonies, in exchange for service as mercenaries. I cannot think of any cases where they brought mercenaries that expected to go home after the campaign, though.
Ok. It's impossible to bring mercenaries anywhere for fear of revealing who lives there, if it's far enough from the battleground, but anyway I suppose all Waertagi wars were naval wars against competitors.
On 21/06/2017 at 8:17 PM, Joerg said:QuoteSome of the Waertagi are naturally amphibious so they must be very good with shallows, reefs, etc. but most coastal people can count on Ludoch help too.
Counting on the Ludoch can be a fatal error - even if the coastal folk have long standing cooperation by submitting to the Ludoch, the Waertagi have ancestral ties with the Ludoch, and they bring their sea sorcery as a help to neutralize any Ludoch interference - if only by threatening to use it.
The Waertagi had a long tradition to interdict any overseas travel by anyone but themselves. In this, it is suspected that they were aided by the Triolini, regardless of their cooperation on a local level.
Ok.
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6 hours ago, Joerg said:
When taking on drylander cargo or passengers, they would usually also take on food both for the passengers for the supposed duration of their journey and for themselves to avoid depleting their port's seafood supply permanently. Usually they would enter the ports on auxiliary vessels rather than on their cityships.
They are able to live at sea for a very long time and almost do not need to land. When they come near inhabited lands, and usually their dragonships never enter ports, it's for trade or perhaps occasional raids, so I favour the beach landing theory, using large canoes, as in the Aftal story.
6 hours ago, Joerg said:Waertagi are perfectly capable of beachhead landings, and of deploying marines rapidly from their vessels. Their mastery over the tidal waves means that they can make landings across reefs that usually would prevent any amphibious operation. While using this approach comfortably for raiding or for establishing a new colony (of passengers), they prefer to use ports with good cargo facilities for trading.
The Waertagi are afraid of the land, and they don't go too far IMO. If they met any serious resistance, they wouldn't insist and risk dying to the last man. It is likely they'd seek mercenaries' help in such situations. Flooding enemy ports with tidal waves would be a tremendous attack. I remember reading somewhere that some Second Age Jrusteli port city was destroyed by the vengeful Waertagi.
Some of the Waertagi are naturally amphibious so they must be very good with shallows, reefs, etc. but most coastal people can count on Ludoch help too.
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On 19/06/2017 at 10:20 AM, Joerg said:
Ancestor doesn't necessarily mean direct ancestor, someone who branched off your great-by-the-power-of-x grandfather still qualifies. In this case, any descendant of Zaramaka is close enough.
Every god in the sea pantheon is not an ancestor of the Waertagi race. Malkion, Waertag, and maybe some Triolini deities are. I would limit this ancestry to Waertag, but since Malkion is obviously an ancestor too, why not include the Triolini as well, as you pointed out earlier that Malkion was the son of a Triolini himself.
On 19/06/2017 at 10:20 AM, Joerg said:It isn't clear that they worship the tidal waves - their sorcerers command them or make deals with them to carry their city ships into the dry docks. What is interesting about this is that the tidal wave apparently can be called outside of the natural tides.
Yes, I think it's interesting too. Both methods should be possible, but tidal waves are caused by a deity, from one of the Nine Undine Clans of the Neliomi Sea.
On 19/06/2017 at 10:20 AM, Joerg said:The way Gloranthan tides work, high water accumulates only slowly as the Blue Moon rises outside of the Sky Dome from below the deepest seas, taking an average of 3 to 4 days for that climb (can be as little as one day and as much as 6 days). This doesn't really cause a tidal wave running into the harbor. The outgoing flow happens within hours, though, as the Blue Streak plummets from Pole Star through Magasta's Pool into the deepest hell.
The so-called tidal wave is really a weak form of a sea taking a run at dry land, not half as bad as Worcha. It is not tied to the tidal cycle, although a high tide obviously provides more water under the bellies of the Waertagi city ships.
Such "tidal waves" (a better name would be "harbor waves", which is the translation of tsunami) probably are common events in coastal Glorantha. The seas and their currents are sufficiently alive to send out such waves ever now and then, without the need for high magnitude earthquakes or mountainsides sliding into the sea. A few of the more impressive monsters like the Leviathan probably can cause such waves, too.
Doesn't it mean it is not necessary to dedicate a specialized deity for this whereas there is plenty of other causes?
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1 hour ago, davecake said:
So I reject the idea that the Waertagi pick up random pagan beliefs. Rather, their ancestor worship and their worship of the sea gods are considered the same things, as they can directly trace their ancestry back to the gods.
They are acquainted with sea deities who are not their ancestors, for example the different places named Sog after the spirits which the Waertagi worship there. The source of my speculation is that Sog is a giant undine of the King Undine's family, whose children live in Neliom's Sea, the Waertagi's home base near Brithos and the original Sog, but it is suggested they also do it in other places around the oceans.
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6 hours ago, Joerg said:14 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:
Any chance this refers to what RM describes as the "Rebellion of the Gods"?
Rebellion of the Gods is a Brithini term for the end of the Green Age.
Not a big problem but I thought it started in the Third Action Era (early Golden Age) when the Burtae deities were created, and started to make trouble.
QuoteI do wonder who or what this was to be a rebellion against? The will of Zzabur?
Identification to the Runes is the reason given in RM. By Identification to the runes, the gods, the True Beings which resulted from the Third Action Era, actually turned against each other, or generally competed for spheres of power.
QuoteThe Brithini exposure to gods uses the same names we find for the ancient gods of Ralios rather than the Theyalan/post-Argentium Thri'ile Dara Happan mash-up that we know from Cults of Prax. The God Learners did produce a genealogy of gods that re-united the Ralian gods with the expanded Theyalan gods world and had e.g. Ehilm as a son of Yelm, and Yamsur somewhere in the vicinity.
A useful reminder.
QuoteThe sequence of the emergence of the elements was a logical act of creation, only the form of the birth of Storm was irregular. Generally, always one element was formed inside the others - see for instance the Three Curious Spirits myth tying Zorak Zoran, Argan Argar and Xiola Umbar to Aether in its womb. (And note the apparent temporal discontinuity of Argan Argar basically being unborn before Xentha enters the (yet unborn) upper world sky.)
I think we must be careful with this notion because I do not think Sequence is wrong when it tends to follow a logical direction, although it may happen. Sequence involves Causality, a concept everyone in Glorantha probably understands and uses. Xentha was the darkness spirit who led the escape into Hurtplace. So usually, in most cases, I think it makes sense.
QuoteQuoteThe official position appears in a footnote about the Origin of People in RM p. 4. Why do you think a niiad is better than a ludoch mermaid?
Niiads don't require air to breathe, the Ludoch offspring of Diendimos do. Why should them mating with the offspring of air-breathing humans produce water-breathing offspring?
Indeed, a very good point.
QuoteQuoteAre there any other known?
There is one Malkion (at least) for each of the Actions, including the Creator, the Founder, the Sacrifice. They often have another name, too, like e.g. Kiona.
I actually meant other known Malkion the Founder stories, but I suspect there are none.
QuoteYou can push further towards the runes. This is theist mysticism where you become one with your deity on a level only slightly removed from the Ultimate, becoming one with the rune. In a way, this is the way the contemporaries of Zzabur went to become the runic deities.
I thought it was impossible, actually, and mysticism would reject runic identities as illusions and traps on the way to enlightenment.
Quote13 hours ago, Tcneseleis said:I agree with all this and don't understand what you disagree with. It matters how differently theism and sorcery work. For instance, sorcerers don't have to dress in a sheep-skin (that is just an example) in order to perform rain (Heler's) magic. Perhaps in Ralios they use symbols that look like Heler's attributes, but that's probably not mandatory. They don't need to look at Orlanthi rituals in order to figure out the spells they need. Monotheism forbids the worship of other gods, and dismisses them as useless or even dangerous.
Strangely, this definition of Monotheism developed only within History. If you look at the description of Ylream, Hrestol's snake-legged half brother and first of the serpent kings, you will find the Seshnegi happily combining theistic worship and Malkioni logic-based wizardry and philosophy. Plenty other places have similar combinations. Brithos itself has a land goddess, and the farmer caste as the offspring of Britha and Malkion Aerlitsson. The Waertagi aren't an exeption to the way Malkionism deals with deities, they are the norm. The more extreme forms of monotheism or atheism are the results of genocidal purges. Zzabur pruned the Brithini of any dissidents by sending them off to join the impure colonies on the Genertelan mainlands over and over again, retaining only a hard core of the most determined or the most pliable followers. The Silver Empire of Seshnela in the Dawn Age was the first attempt at monotheism rather than atheism, the previous praxis was a mixed philosophy that acknowledge theist forms of magic alongside the Malkioni atheist philosophy that acknowledged ancestral Malkion as an emanation of the Creator.
I had forgotten all of this.
QuoteJust like the Waertagi, who have a second branch of ancestors - the sea deities - that they treat the same way they treat devolution's Malkion. I suspect that they also revere Aerlit and Warera as part of their ancestry.
The Waertagi sacrifice to the sea gods, indeed. They probably speak with Malkion too but he does not take sacrifices.
QuoteThe God Learners produced the Abiding Book religion, which soon divided into a strict monotheist creed by dropping some aspects of the entire document, and a quite different philosophy that coopted the theist cults for their philosophy, exploiting these cults while adopting some of their tenets. If you look at the allies of Halwal, you find all manner of creeds that are different from both New Idealist Hrestolism and Rokarism, and a lot closer the Waertagi approach (most of whom, except for the Sog City population, weren't around when and where Halwal was active).
The Sharp Abiding Book and maybe the School(s) of Mythical Synthesis. Who is Halwal? Are you referring to the numerous heresies born in the Second Age?
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6 hours ago, Tindalos said:
Personally, I disagree here.
The merfolk are an example of how the Water Rune and the Man Rune were combined. (As personified by the GL as Triolina and Grandfather Mortal, other names would obviously be used as well. Their offspring is recorded as Phargon)
It's in much the same way as the Water Rune (Triolina) mixed with the Plant Rune (Flamal), Beast Rune (Hykim) and the Spirit Rune (Interestingly, commonly seen as Heler) to produce the sea plants (Murthdrya), the sea beasts (Tholaina) and sea spirits (Veredth/King Undine)
Other, similar combinations can be seen with other elements. Darkness (Dame Darkness) mixes with Plant, Man, and Beast to produce Mee Vorala, Kyger Litor, and Sokazub (The darkness family tree in Uz Lore even comes from Zzabur's Blue Book). Only the spirits of darkness are separate, coming from the Mother of Space and Father of Demon's child Dehore.
The Earth Rune (as Ernalda) mixes with Plant and Beast runes to create Aldrya and Eiritha. Likewise the Storm Rune and Beast Runes combine as Umath and Mikyh to create Storm Bull. (And I'd be willing to bet Kal, the mother of Umbrol/Kolat is another incarnation of the Spirit Rune)
I agree with all this and don't understand what you disagree with. It matters how differently theism and sorcery work. For instance, sorcerers don't have to dress in a sheep-skin (that is just an example) in order to perform rain (Heler's) magic. Perhaps in Ralios they use symbols that look like Heler's attributes, but that's probably not mandatory. They don't need to look at Orlanthi rituals in order to figure out the spells they need. Monotheism forbids the worship of other gods, and dismisses them as useless or even dangerous.
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33 minutes ago, Joerg said:
The Brithini themselves report the union (not marriage) of Earth and Sky, and how the new element filled the space between its parents - pushing up the Sky Dome, and pushing down the earth cube into the seas so that its top surface became about level with the seas, and the first seas like Togaro and Sshorg or Neliom could enter the surface.
The Brithini are explicit about the new element's mixed origin, as is shown in the Dawn Age (pre-God Learner) document on rune metals.
Any chance this refers to what RM describes as the "Rebellion of the Gods"?
10 hours ago, Joerg said:IMO the answer lies in the cyclical, non-sequential nature of Godtime. Waertag is a deity, and can be around and be reborn. as a child of the son of Aerlit and Warera and a niiad. (I still don't buy the ludoch mother - rather a niiad who shares the same ancestry as Ludocha, possibly a niiad child of Ludocha before her interaction with Diendimos). And that merfolk ancestry can be distributed by the elder..
The official position appears in a footnote about the Origin of People in RM p. 4. Why do you think a niiad is better than a ludoch mermaid?
1 hour ago, Joerg said:Malkion Aerlitsson logically was born after the birth of Umath, since Aerlit is a (probably second or third generation) descendant of Umath. He is, however, only one of several manifestations of Malkion, all of whom share traits that Malkion Aerlitsson brought into the Malkion whole.
Are there any other known?
10 hours ago, Joerg said:There is also the possibility of interwoven sequences - one mythic sequence may very well run a sequence that jumps around in different ages. The sages are divided whether this indicates a composite myth, echoes of earlier events in later myths, or whether such perceived time travel is a common occurrence.
This is also noticeable in the spatial dimension. Because there is room for local variations, there should be some kind of magical interaction resulting into a reconfiguration of the myths, and, sometimes, quite naturally they repeat themselves, across ages, and through space too. Misunderstanding this probably contributed to the errors made by the God Learners.
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4 hours ago, soltakss said:
In my Glorantha, Umath was born from the union of Earth and Sky and did lift the Shy from the Earth. My Glorantha is very mythical in nature and the myths are, more often than not, actual representations of what happened, rather than analogies.
I am sure that dismissing myths as explanations for natural forces is canonical Glorantha as well, from the sorcerous side. Merfolk, other creatures, magic, the God Plane, exist as well, but some of those do not fit neatly with the way the Malkioni work their magic, the way they are seen by non-Malkioni. Only their magic is worthy of interest because the other ways of doing magic are a loss of time and energy sacrificing to gods or worshipping spirits who are lesser magical beings dating back to God Time events, who sort of hijacked the powers of Logic to satisfy their own lust. Although it's impossible to reconcile both views, I'm sure they are both found in Glorantha.
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On 05/06/2017 at 11:14 PM, Tcneseleis said:On 05/06/2017 at 5:30 PM, Joerg said:
The six original tribes of Danmalastan may have predated the birth of Umath - the Malkion son of Aerlit might have been a later incarnation than Malkion father of Waertag, Enroval and the other four founders.
Their vessels rely on currents and waves for rapid propulsion. In the Aftal story, they don't row their mundane boats, but paddle them.
Waertag, Umath, all follow from Malkion's successive incarnations in the sequence of the Five Actions. That Malkion had a lot of wives, and how Waertag was born, are stories which don't make sense in the former Zzaburi frame.
I may have been a little fast here, since Waertag must be born during the Fourth Action. On the other hand, it is unthinkable that Umath was seriously "born" from the marriage of Sky and Earth, and did physically "lift" the Sky above the Earth, but he was just Air, so he should be of the Second Action (True Being) or Third Action (as a combination of Earth and Sky).
Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 8 - Beyond the Middle World
in Guide to Glorantha Group Read
Posted · Edited by Tcneseis
Right. This is different from what the Seshnegi did at the Dawn. Zzaburi then knew better than to meddle with the cults of the gods which were widespread and supported the royalty.
Is it the same Illumination as Nysalor's Illumination?