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Posts posted by Tcneseis

  1. I found this on a scrap of paper on top of a pile of paper on a shelf. I do not remember how I got this. It is my handwriting though.

    If King Gundreken wanted to keep control of all sea traffic in his kingdom he should set up an embargo on Sog City. He does not want to carry on with his people's fear of the seas, but the ships of the knights who patrol in Ozur's Bay stop all foreign traffic in order to search the cargoes and the ships from prow to stern and make sure no corrupt goods are brought into his kingdom. He conscientiously filters all communications with the outside world, the Janubian cities, and the surrounding kingdoms ruled by ambitious kings.

    The Lunar Empire is regarded as a possible ally by many but others think that in any case, their landbound territories are doomed to be crushed by the lords of the coast if they do not keep their governments under a steady grip. Even in Loskalm, it is difficult to enter an aristocracy. But a Lunar way allows for a communion which does not require powerful armies or large resources of bronze, let alone iron, which trickle out of Jonatela. However there are problems.

    The kingdom is plagued by Chaos worshippers who corrupt the food of royal officials. The country is infested by Pocharngo cultists (from Dilis swamp maybe?). An official who was complaining was answered by the old woman who set the table for him that the Invisible God was powerless against the brutes and only Chaos could help. It was a Lunar in Loskalm! No sooner had he told her his intent to go to a Magus for a cure, she foretold him that if he gave her evil cult away he would be assaulted and branded for life so that the pagans would recognize him. Then she added he was a sinner and he was the secret Seseine worshipper. Naturally the official replied it was not true, he did not know of any Seseine whose sins Malkion had punished in the writings. But she got hooked to her own little game and then accused him of devouring books like a worm, comparing him to a creature of legend though we know all too well how pagans weave deceitful myths. She got into a temper and told him: "tell your Magus how I threatened you! You will be locked up in a madhouse, and I will stay free as a good Loskalmi and conqueror of the Lunars." He was dumbfounded by her duplicity when she told him of her plan to put and end to Siglat's Dream. It was her victory, her turn to be scornful. He had never tapped a peasant in his life, not even called them bumpkins, now she was addressing him as she was noble and himself a commoner. 


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  2. 5 hours ago, Joerg said:

    I stand on the record that ZZ was the prototype uzko - burnt troll. (See the Three Curious Spirits story in Troll Pak. One might even argue that Argan Argar and the siblings XU and ZZ are sky entities, born from their exposure to Aether. Underworld sky entities. AA has the additional sky origin through his mother, Xentha, who might be a mother of all underworld stellar beings.)

    Zorak Zoran and Xiola Umbar are well-known Darkness deities who have no inherent Fire/Sky relationship. It also seems that Styx, who is not quite Water yet, but nearly so, has a distant connection with Annilla, and might be closer to Sky deities.






  3. It is not Harmony or either of the Power runes because any of the pairs of opposites can be replaced by its opposite. Harmony must be maintained and can be removed.

    Infinity is too neutral. It has little effect on the mundane realms of finiteness.


  4. 21 hours ago, davecake said:

    A Zzaburi is tried only by other Zzaburi if the crime is one that only involves other zzaburi. So if a zzaburi attacks another with sorcery, that is a zzaburi matter, but if they attack any other caste, or do anything that effects the entire community, then they are judged by a Talar.

    I see this is in the Guide to Glorantha, so I am catching up.

    A lot of details which belonged to Middle Age terminology have been changed.


  5. Segregation does not only take place in schools. Malkioni towns have a market place where people from different castes meet. The Talars must manage the relations between them, even if the castes have more freedom to organize themselves and do their business as they see fit. If a Zzaburi is suspected of a crime, the Talars may order them taken into custody, but should not a Zzaburi be tried only by another Zzaburi? 


  6. 11 hours ago, davecake said:

    They do not have a notion of Sin like any form of Christianity does. There is Error. Error is bad, but its not the same as Sin. Error demonstrates poor judgement, but not necessarily moral failure. 

    So, are some of the Zzaburi lawyers or spiritual advisers? (not the equivalent of Christian clerics) I don't think it is right to call them philosophers in the same sense as the Ancient Greeks had philosophy schools, because they were not so widespread.

    And I doubt the Malkioni have schools, other than for Zzaburi.

    12 hours ago, davecake said:

    They almost certainly do have food strictures, but I don't think they are particularly rigid, though there may be some caste based ones. 

    Modern Malkioni eat fish not because it is forbidden not to, but because Malkion recommends fish (RM pg 18). He also blesses the Swine (so pork is good) and blesses the relish - Malkioni clearly like their condiments! I'm sure they eat fish when they wish to demonstrate piety. 

    Yes, I doubt they rigidly follow such rules, but have a lot of divine advice and recommendations.



  7. It's what I think about the Mostali. Some individuality, but not much in the way of it. They may not even bother telling themselves apart.

    10 hours ago, davecake said:

    Basically, Brithini are very conservative humans, mostly limited in their intellectual curiousity (except the Zzaburi). They do desire to improve their lives but only within limited ways by limited means. They have a very strong sense of their role in society and their civic responsibility, but they are individuals. An average Brithini enjoys food, drink, company of others, nature, and so on - for the most part, they work hard, but also enjoy simple pleasures. The notion of 'social progress' is relatively alien to them as we understand it - their society is evidently correct, as it grants Immortality. The Brithini enjoy and appreciate positive emotions like love, and sensual pleasures,as long as they are always subordinated to logic and the good of the community. 

    It contrasts with the dreariness and bleakness which Brithini lands are well-known for. I think the degree they indulge in pleasure is relatively small, but they certainly do. They may also have games and other activities on special days.



  8. 22 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

    The nature of the cult and the understanding of Yelm changes repeatedly, an there are clearly more than one understanding in play at one and the same time. 

    The social models, role models, systems of organizations, have little changed. How Yelm was understood by the Emperor and great magicians (rather than heroes) resulted in the foundation of shrines and priesthoods. Others were given up.


    22 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

    Even when the cult is at its strongest, with a reciprocally rigid hold upon the nobility, the ordinary people of Dara Happa live a life far distanced from their dogmas.

    They are not Dara Happan nobles but they obey the Solar order, which was not suppressed by the Red Goddess.

    22 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

    The implicit weakness of the relationship between the Empire and Yelm is shown by the ease with which Umbarism, New Umbarism and the Golden Dragon displace his worship - even if temporarily.

    Their heresies did not survive the destruction they caused of the old Dara Happan Empire. But the Yelmites could also have all converted to carmanism.

    22 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

    The GRoY is a religio-political polemic concerning the way the Yelmite priesthood think things should be.  It is a poor mirror to hold up to Dara Happan life for the majority.

    It describes the Empire quite well, although it no longer works exactly the same. It challenges the Orlanthi point of view that it is stagnant, but they do not tend to form stable governments with strong central power.


  9. 2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

    I apologize if this comes across badly, but I wasn't sure how to read this. Is it meant seriously or cynically?

    I was in fact serious because Dara Happa is based on Yelm's cult who is a very important deity, who "makes" the Rich Land (and many or all other lands). It is essential to the conservatism of Solar cultures that Yelm is extremely reliable.


  10. The changing forms of rule reflect temporal failures of the aristocratic Solar religion to stand up to external conditions. Although pretensions to empire are vainglorious under the Lunar Empire, the language and cults of old Dara Happa have endured perhaps because they dominate by divine order most of the population and land powers.

    Catastrophic events may disturb the stars and Yelm's mundane states may be shaken (I think this is true of other Sun-worshipping cultures too), but the general order is mostly stable. Empire as such is always Yelmic at the root.

  11. It sounds really good. Impressive. I agree some names should not appear here for those lineages certainly did not stay in Dara Happa proper, unless they have intermarried among nobles in the more recent and peaceful centuries too.


  12. I didn't remember... "Miscellaenous Observations on Odd Runes" mentions the god Khor. I think divine names can be used as prefixes too. There is one named Elmatryan. And Bisoshan, referring to Bisos the Bull god from Carmania.




  13. 2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

    A significant number of Dara Happan names are theophoric in nature, and if the 'divine portion' is the final element of the name then that will define the ending.

    e.g. khor-DAVU, mahzan-ELM, anirest-YU

    Then maybe Dara Happan uses case-endings that can be dropped in some words and in other similar languages. I'm not really a language expert.




    On 20/01/2017 at 6:57 AM, Ali the Helering said:

    If I recall the Entekosiad correctly, Gorgorma is implied to be Pelandan in origin.  We have Jaga Natha from Naveria.  With these cults producing a sweep of anti-rapist culture to the south and west of the Oslir River Valley, does this imply something about Dara Happan propensities?

    JagaNatha might as well embrace rape as punish it, IMO.


  15. For Dara Happan names, names can be used with a -us, -a or other Latin termination, etc. Other forms can be derived from Greek in the same way but it is not found in the Gloranthan sources.

    For Lunar names the forms are whatever. Everyone in the Empire can become a Lunar.


  16. 16 hours ago, simonh said:

    The whole point of my suggestion is that this form of resurrection may not be sacrilege for Humakti, and there are some reasons to believe that this is so. If it's sacrilege of course they will have a problem with it. But equally if they don't have a problem with it, presumably it is not considered sacrilege. Does that seem reasonable?

    So that's what I'm suggesting - the actual distinction between the cases they seem ok with and may even participate in and those they are explicitly not ok with.

    Most of the details of the Sword Bridge Quest aren't relevant except for that it's a Humakti hero quest and that at leas part of it takes place in Hell. So to perform the quest a Humakti would have to travel to Hell and come back again.

    I understand that Humakti would not target people who return from the Underworld as much as they target people who resurrect. I didn't think it could be a problem, I just thought powerful heroquesters would usually be taken seriously. But in a general context, Humakt defends the sacred status of death both as his own territory and as a member of the Orlanthi pantheon.


  17. 11 minutes ago, simonh said:

    How about heroquesters that travel to the underworld? In particular Humakti heroquesters such as those performing the Sword Bridge Quest?

    This is the issue that triggered this discussion. We know that Humakti don't have a problem with people that bodily travel to Hell and back and actually do this themselves.

    If the Humakti don't have the problem with sacrilege resurrection, they still have to deal with competing heroquesters. I don't know what happens in the Sword Bridge quest, so I could not comment on this. My point is mostly about the scale of power involved, even if only followers of other war gods are taken as serious rivals. Humakti who have never heroquested and meet real heroquesters who follow rival war gods have problems. :-)



  18. 12 minutes ago, simonh said:

    How would someone killed by a Humakti end up in Hell with their body and soul not separated?

    Simon Hibbs

    People who go to Hell with all of their soul and body and return are very powerful people who have walked heroquest paths of special kinds, in fact Heroes. I didn't mean people who were killed by Humakti but people who went to the Underworld willfully. If I can make myself clearer, I mean to say that it is highly unusual to meet them and just call them sinners and try to kill them (although it is often what most people would like to do). They are very dangerous, may have a large band of followers, and when they are not blessed by the gods, they are able to withstand divine rules. Very few such individuals are known in Glorantha: Sheng Seleris, Ethilrist, the Red Emperor, are the ones I can remember.




  19. On 21/01/2017 at 7:37 PM, simonh said:

    Note that Humakti have a huge problem with people getting resurrected by having their separated body and soul rejoined, but don't have any problem with people who bodily travelled to the underworld returning.

    I think most Humakti cults would have serious problems if they met them and had to kill them again.


  20. 14 hours ago, JonL said:

    Yanafal Tarnils managed it, though he embraced a new patron in the doing.

    They have cult rules forbidding it, and institutionally encourage Illumination, which allows one to bypass cult rules. It's kind of having it both ways, but that's the Lunars for you.

    I think it cannot be dogmatically forbidden in all instances, but things involving Chaos may be forbidden. Usually no Lunar would ever think of embracing Chaos as such, they usually follow the Lunar way, not a path of corruption and destruction.


  21. 2 hours ago, Darius West said:

    An interesting idea, but how do you bypass someone whom you seek to embody and emulate and be a living symbol of?  You and they are intrinsically connected.  I suspect that Humakti would be more powerful in the underworld, and would probably prefer to remain with the Einherjar.

    From that point of view, I agree it would be oathbreaking. And to stay with the Einherjar is certainly great but they may be bound by stronger duties. Now, this is just an example of what the Death god may instill into his worshippers, although he is still bound by the Great Compromise. They have not been put to the sword, neither physically nor spiritually, when they enter the Underworld.


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