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Tcneseis

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Posts posted by Tcneseis

  1. 3 hours ago, Joerg said:

    I guess that you have access to the Guide, Revealed Mythologies, and possibly Missing Lands (for the obscure and likely post-canonical "Aftal the Waertagi" fragment)?

    Yes. This story ignores the mechanics of the Closing. But it describes the Waertagi quite well.

    3 hours ago, Joerg said:

    Pagan literature? The only place where they might have come into contact with pagan literature would likely have been Nochet, perhaps also Kralorela, Fonrit or Melib.

    Most of their trading contacts would have been illiterate. The Janubian/Poralistor river tribe might have been in contact with Pelandan writings, but cut off from their Sea Dragons, I don't think they would have remained acceptable to their dragon-city dwelling cousins.

    They would have exchanged stories with the pagans, though, and probably have participated in rites they would have considered friendly.

    Exchanged stories, and written them down. Collected knowledge. Are the Waertagi related to Janubian river tribes who don't have the fins and gills...?

    3 hours ago, Joerg said:

    The six original tribes of Danmalastan may have predated the birth of Umath - the Malkion son of Aerlit might have been a later incarnation than Malkion father of Waertag, Enroval and the other four founders.

    Their vessels rely on currents and waves for rapid propulsion. In the Aftal story, they don't row their mundane boats, but paddle them.

    Waertag, Umath, all follow from Malkion's successive incarnations in the sequence of the Five Actions. That Malkion had a lot of wives, and how Waertag was born, are stories which don't make sense in the former Zzaburi frame.

    I know the story of Aftal takes place during the Opening, although these Waertagi don't need magic to do the crossing to the nearest land.

    4 hours ago, Joerg said:

    They don't feel too kindly towards Zzabur, either, I suppose.

    It is unlikely they bless him for the Closing.

    4 hours ago, Joerg said:

    Keeping the various peoples across the seas secret from one another isn't a viable strategy any more. It would take memory removal magic to make this viable again. Maybe later in the Hero Wars.

    Yes, good point. Thank you.

    4 hours ago, Joerg said:

    The rest of that bullet point reads like an Arkati mission statement. Arkat once traveled from Brithos to Arolanit on a Waertagi ship. He didn't use their aid for his invasion of Kethaela, though.

    Yes, I think so. There is a surprising analogy with Arkati control of the Hero Planes. However they are mostly independent, as far as I know.

    4 hours ago, Joerg said:

    Dormal wasn't really a Malkioni. His teacher and one of his companions were. He doesn't seem to have grown up in House Delaineo, despite being the son of Valira. He might have been given anonymously into fosterage to local Diroti ship-wrights.

    No he wasn't at first, but is it really an error to call him so? Dormal was a human who associated with different people and deities and performed holy actions which Malkion himself had or would have done when he went among pagans.

    4 hours ago, Joerg said:

    Do they really care about the Loskalmi ways, other than that they dare to sail the open seas using the Dormal rites?

    I agree the doctrine may be irrelevant.

    4 hours ago, Joerg said:

    "The goal of trade is to get rich." Is that so? Or is trading their way to ensure that they receive those things from the drylands that they cannot produce on their floating cities?

    What kind of riches would the Waertagi amass? Gold is fairly useless to them, but is an excellent exchange medium when trading with the drylanders. Sea Metal would be valued, bronze would be an inferior substitute, iron might be desirable, provided it doesn't interfere with their control over the dragons.

    Deri slaves would be in demand for both their telepathic and their smithing abilities. Human slaves as servants or sacrifices to some of the more unsavory sea gods.

    Not all trading partners rank the same. I think the other Malkioni were primary suppliers of important resources in the Dawn Age. The Aftal story suggests they can survive quite a long time with a metal supply, but I suspect they hoarded much more than needed in daily jobs. Lots of gold, gems, etc. too.

    5 hours ago, Joerg said:

    Dormal stole their secrets, or so they claim. Which might be somewhat true - one key to Dormal's success was encoded in ancient tiles on the floor of the workshop of his collaborator Galaaz, and may have been left from the time when Nochet had a drydock.

    It could be magic stolen from the Waertagi but it was not enough to open the seas.

     

  2. I'm trying not to repeat what has been published.
     
    The Waertagi used pagan literature whenever they found it and were able to use others' myths according to the places they visited. They certainly cared about certain local traditions. Wherever they survive, their religion looks like some kind of simple ancestor cult mixed with the worship of local water spirits, which the Brithini of the City of Brass do not want to hear about, yet which contributed to keep the Waertagi in power over the oceans in the Dawn Age. They hate Dormal as much as they hate the memory of the God Learners. A few key points of Waertagi beliefs and ideology (in addition to what is known of Waertagi culture) include:
     
    • The gods don't want to be manipulated. They empower those who worship them with the proper rites, and do so reliably. Their genealogies spread far and wide in places that were unaware of each other until the God Learners came, and in the Third Age Waertagi ethics of secrecy still hold true.
    • They are especially good at divination and necromancy and also all kinds of repair magics due to their Dragon-slaying ancestry.
    • The Waertagi do not doubt or question Malkionism although their understanding of Malkion is simple and agrees well with polytheism. Malkionism is in fact sorcery, is not inherently moral, and Dormal was not the type of Malkioni the Waertagi get along with because former human attempts to navigate have proven his cult is dangerous. The origin of this Sea-opening magic is unknown.
    • New Hrestoli Idealism is evil and despicable.
    • The Church of the Ship and City is a spin-off effect of Waertagi traditions in a place inhabited by humans.
    • The goal of trade is to get rich. Good opportunities are desirable. Piracy is an option. Modern naval powers are of no consequence.
    • History books are prized.
     

     

    • Like 3
  3. 13 hours ago, scott-martin said:

    This is an extraordinary line revealing deep logic around the Tap. Thank you.

    Yes it's not legal in Loskalm.

    I edited out a couple of things.

     

  4. I found this on a scrap of paper on top of a pile of paper on a shelf. I do not remember how I got this. It is my handwriting though.

    If King Gundreken wanted to keep control of all sea traffic in his kingdom he should set up an embargo on Sog City. He does not want to carry on with his people's fear of the seas, but the ships of the knights who patrol in Ozur's Bay stop all foreign traffic in order to search the cargoes and the ships from prow to stern and make sure no corrupt goods are brought into his kingdom. He conscientiously filters all communications with the outside world, the Janubian cities, and the surrounding kingdoms ruled by ambitious kings.

    The Lunar Empire is regarded as a possible ally by many but others think that in any case, their landbound territories are doomed to be crushed by the lords of the coast if they do not keep their governments under a steady grip. Even in Loskalm, it is difficult to enter an aristocracy. But a Lunar way allows for a communion which does not require powerful armies or large resources of bronze, let alone iron, which trickle out of Jonatela. However there are problems.

    The kingdom is plagued by Chaos worshippers who corrupt the food of royal officials. The country is infested by Pocharngo cultists (from Dilis swamp maybe?). An official who was complaining was answered by the old woman who set the table for him that the Invisible God was powerless against the brutes and only Chaos could help. It was a Lunar in Loskalm! No sooner had he told her his intent to go to a Magus for a cure, she foretold him that if he gave her evil cult away he would be assaulted and branded for life so that the pagans would recognize him. Then she added he was a sinner and he was the secret Seseine worshipper. Naturally the official replied it was not true, he did not know of any Seseine whose sins Malkion had punished in the writings. But she got hooked to her own little game and then accused him of devouring books like a worm, comparing him to a creature of legend though we know all too well how pagans weave deceitful myths. She got into a temper and told him: "tell your Magus how I threatened you! You will be locked up in a madhouse, and I will stay free as a good Loskalmi and conqueror of the Lunars." He was dumbfounded by her duplicity when she told him of her plan to put and end to Siglat's Dream. It was her victory, her turn to be scornful. He had never tapped a peasant in his life, not even called them bumpkins, now she was addressing him as she was noble and himself a commoner. 

     

    • Like 1
  5. 5 hours ago, Joerg said:

    I stand on the record that ZZ was the prototype uzko - burnt troll. (See the Three Curious Spirits story in Troll Pak. One might even argue that Argan Argar and the siblings XU and ZZ are sky entities, born from their exposure to Aether. Underworld sky entities. AA has the additional sky origin through his mother, Xentha, who might be a mother of all underworld stellar beings.)

    Zorak Zoran and Xiola Umbar are well-known Darkness deities who have no inherent Fire/Sky relationship. It also seems that Styx, who is not quite Water yet, but nearly so, has a distant connection with Annilla, and might be closer to Sky deities.

     

     

     

     

     

  6. It is not Harmony or either of the Power runes because any of the pairs of opposites can be replaced by its opposite. Harmony must be maintained and can be removed.

    Infinity is too neutral. It has little effect on the mundane realms of finiteness.

     

  7. 21 hours ago, davecake said:

    A Zzaburi is tried only by other Zzaburi if the crime is one that only involves other zzaburi. So if a zzaburi attacks another with sorcery, that is a zzaburi matter, but if they attack any other caste, or do anything that effects the entire community, then they are judged by a Talar.

    I see this is in the Guide to Glorantha, so I am catching up.

    A lot of details which belonged to Middle Age terminology have been changed.

     

  8. Segregation does not only take place in schools. Malkioni towns have a market place where people from different castes meet. The Talars must manage the relations between them, even if the castes have more freedom to organize themselves and do their business as they see fit. If a Zzaburi is suspected of a crime, the Talars may order them taken into custody, but should not a Zzaburi be tried only by another Zzaburi? 

     

  9. 11 hours ago, davecake said:

    They do not have a notion of Sin like any form of Christianity does. There is Error. Error is bad, but its not the same as Sin. Error demonstrates poor judgement, but not necessarily moral failure. 

    So, are some of the Zzaburi lawyers or spiritual advisers? (not the equivalent of Christian clerics) I don't think it is right to call them philosophers in the same sense as the Ancient Greeks had philosophy schools, because they were not so widespread.

    And I doubt the Malkioni have schools, other than for Zzaburi.

    12 hours ago, davecake said:

    They almost certainly do have food strictures, but I don't think they are particularly rigid, though there may be some caste based ones. 

    Modern Malkioni eat fish not because it is forbidden not to, but because Malkion recommends fish (RM pg 18). He also blesses the Swine (so pork is good) and blesses the relish - Malkioni clearly like their condiments! I'm sure they eat fish when they wish to demonstrate piety. 

    Yes, I doubt they rigidly follow such rules, but have a lot of divine advice and recommendations.

     

     

  10. I think all Malkioni have the notions of sin we are familiar with. The Rokari probably do not have so many food strictures as the Brithini, except possibly eating fish on Freezedays (because freeze preserves fish?).

    Since tapping is allowed, tapping animals before eating them must be frequently done.

     

     

  11. It's what I think about the Mostali. Some individuality, but not much in the way of it. They may not even bother telling themselves apart.

    10 hours ago, davecake said:

    Basically, Brithini are very conservative humans, mostly limited in their intellectual curiousity (except the Zzaburi). They do desire to improve their lives but only within limited ways by limited means. They have a very strong sense of their role in society and their civic responsibility, but they are individuals. An average Brithini enjoys food, drink, company of others, nature, and so on - for the most part, they work hard, but also enjoy simple pleasures. The notion of 'social progress' is relatively alien to them as we understand it - their society is evidently correct, as it grants Immortality. The Brithini enjoy and appreciate positive emotions like love, and sensual pleasures,as long as they are always subordinated to logic and the good of the community. 

    It contrasts with the dreariness and bleakness which Brithini lands are well-known for. I think the degree they indulge in pleasure is relatively small, but they certainly do. They may also have games and other activities on special days.

     

     

  12. 22 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

    The nature of the cult and the understanding of Yelm changes repeatedly, an there are clearly more than one understanding in play at one and the same time. 

    The social models, role models, systems of organizations, have little changed. How Yelm was understood by the Emperor and great magicians (rather than heroes) resulted in the foundation of shrines and priesthoods. Others were given up.

     

    22 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

    Even when the cult is at its strongest, with a reciprocally rigid hold upon the nobility, the ordinary people of Dara Happa live a life far distanced from their dogmas.

    They are not Dara Happan nobles but they obey the Solar order, which was not suppressed by the Red Goddess.

    22 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

    The implicit weakness of the relationship between the Empire and Yelm is shown by the ease with which Umbarism, New Umbarism and the Golden Dragon displace his worship - even if temporarily.

    Their heresies did not survive the destruction they caused of the old Dara Happan Empire. But the Yelmites could also have all converted to carmanism.

    22 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

    The GRoY is a religio-political polemic concerning the way the Yelmite priesthood think things should be.  It is a poor mirror to hold up to Dara Happan life for the majority.

    It describes the Empire quite well, although it no longer works exactly the same. It challenges the Orlanthi point of view that it is stagnant, but they do not tend to form stable governments with strong central power.

     

  13. 2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

    I apologize if this comes across badly, but I wasn't sure how to read this. Is it meant seriously or cynically?

    I was in fact serious because Dara Happa is based on Yelm's cult who is a very important deity, who "makes" the Rich Land (and many or all other lands). It is essential to the conservatism of Solar cultures that Yelm is extremely reliable.

     

  14. The changing forms of rule reflect temporal failures of the aristocratic Solar religion to stand up to external conditions. Although pretensions to empire are vainglorious under the Lunar Empire, the language and cults of old Dara Happa have endured perhaps because they dominate by divine order most of the population and land powers.

    Catastrophic events may disturb the stars and Yelm's mundane states may be shaken (I think this is true of other Sun-worshipping cultures too), but the general order is mostly stable. Empire as such is always Yelmic at the root.
     

  15. It sounds really good. Impressive. I agree some names should not appear here for those lineages certainly did not stay in Dara Happa proper, unless they have intermarried among nobles in the more recent and peaceful centuries too.

     

  16. I didn't remember... "Miscellaenous Observations on Odd Runes" mentions the god Khor. I think divine names can be used as prefixes too. There is one named Elmatryan. And Bisoshan, referring to Bisos the Bull god from Carmania.

     

     

     

  17. 2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

    A significant number of Dara Happan names are theophoric in nature, and if the 'divine portion' is the final element of the name then that will define the ending.

    e.g. khor-DAVU, mahzan-ELM, anirest-YU

    Then maybe Dara Happan uses case-endings that can be dropped in some words and in other similar languages. I'm not really a language expert.

     

     

  18.  

    On 20/01/2017 at 6:57 AM, Ali the Helering said:

    If I recall the Entekosiad correctly, Gorgorma is implied to be Pelandan in origin.  We have Jaga Natha from Naveria.  With these cults producing a sweep of anti-rapist culture to the south and west of the Oslir River Valley, does this imply something about Dara Happan propensities?

    JagaNatha might as well embrace rape as punish it, IMO.

     

  19. For Dara Happan names, names can be used with a -us, -a or other Latin termination, etc. Other forms can be derived from Greek in the same way but it is not found in the Gloranthan sources.

    For Lunar names the forms are whatever. Everyone in the Empire can become a Lunar.

     

  20. 16 hours ago, simonh said:

    The whole point of my suggestion is that this form of resurrection may not be sacrilege for Humakti, and there are some reasons to believe that this is so. If it's sacrilege of course they will have a problem with it. But equally if they don't have a problem with it, presumably it is not considered sacrilege. Does that seem reasonable?

    So that's what I'm suggesting - the actual distinction between the cases they seem ok with and may even participate in and those they are explicitly not ok with.

    Most of the details of the Sword Bridge Quest aren't relevant except for that it's a Humakti hero quest and that at leas part of it takes place in Hell. So to perform the quest a Humakti would have to travel to Hell and come back again.

    I understand that Humakti would not target people who return from the Underworld as much as they target people who resurrect. I didn't think it could be a problem, I just thought powerful heroquesters would usually be taken seriously. But in a general context, Humakt defends the sacred status of death both as his own territory and as a member of the Orlanthi pantheon.

     

  21. 11 minutes ago, simonh said:

    How about heroquesters that travel to the underworld? In particular Humakti heroquesters such as those performing the Sword Bridge Quest?

    This is the issue that triggered this discussion. We know that Humakti don't have a problem with people that bodily travel to Hell and back and actually do this themselves.

    If the Humakti don't have the problem with sacrilege resurrection, they still have to deal with competing heroquesters. I don't know what happens in the Sword Bridge quest, so I could not comment on this. My point is mostly about the scale of power involved, even if only followers of other war gods are taken as serious rivals. Humakti who have never heroquested and meet real heroquesters who follow rival war gods have problems. :-)

     

     

  22. 12 minutes ago, simonh said:

    How would someone killed by a Humakti end up in Hell with their body and soul not separated?

    Simon Hibbs

    People who go to Hell with all of their soul and body and return are very powerful people who have walked heroquest paths of special kinds, in fact Heroes. I didn't mean people who were killed by Humakti but people who went to the Underworld willfully. If I can make myself clearer, I mean to say that it is highly unusual to meet them and just call them sinners and try to kill them (although it is often what most people would like to do). They are very dangerous, may have a large band of followers, and when they are not blessed by the gods, they are able to withstand divine rules. Very few such individuals are known in Glorantha: Sheng Seleris, Ethilrist, the Red Emperor, are the ones I can remember.

     

     

     

  23. On 21/01/2017 at 7:37 PM, simonh said:

    Note that Humakti have a huge problem with people getting resurrected by having their separated body and soul rejoined, but don't have any problem with people who bodily travelled to the underworld returning.

    I think most Humakti cults would have serious problems if they met them and had to kill them again.

     

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