jeffjerwin

I think the various cities of Dara Happa, rather like the American colonies, claimed 'bands' of Peloria. Arcos as it leaves the Elf Sea is directly east of Jillaro/Nivorah. Your mention of Reladivus as a 'replacement' to Elmal might be a key aspect to how he 'rules over' Redalda. And if Nivorah is falsely equated with Mirin's Cross, the 'mastery' aspect of the whole construction could be as a replacement to Beren (who is an Elmal hero, and hence a representative/mortal reflection of his god, like Vingkot is of Orlanth).

Also, are there other consorts to Redalda besides Beren-Hyalor? If she's been synthesized to Reladiva (I don't know if she has, but that's one possibility), then is Reladivus a Little Sun? (this also brings up whether Redalda in Holay is a mare goddess as well as a rider-goddess, and if so if Yu-Kargzant or Kargzant/Yelmalio could be another mate) In Six Ages, Reladivus is the son of Elmal and of Nivorah the city-goddess (I wonder if she is in fact the Bell-goddess). But sons are expressions of their father, at least in Solar myth (and many others). He is involved in taming Oslira.

I'm confused, then, by the reference in the HQ Pavis book (p.326 in my pdf) which associates the names 'Redalda, Horse-Goddess, and Horse-Loving Daughter of Vingkot' and 'Servant of Reladivus' with the horse-headed mask in the Lunar ceremony. The Lunars seem to associate her with Hippoi/Gamari and the Sartarites with the woman who rides the horse. Of course 'servant of Reladivus' (who must be the consort-figure to Reladiva) might mean something different. Are the Lunars messing around here (some of their other 'associations/synchretisms' are also questionable in other contexts) or is there a late Third Age confusion between Redalda and Reladiva? Obviously Redalda is a demigoddess and somehow coexistent with Reladiva in the godtime. In our world, of course, the Greeks and Romans would make a lot of hay out of 'similar names'. Maybe this is more of the same? But even if mistaken, the blending of two entities might still stick, as it might in our world.

Though Berenstead (Barnborn) is on the northern fringe of the Berenethtelli territory at the dawn. Perhaps the Lenesterings were a break-away group? They are incorporated into the Berenethtelli a few centuries later during the Broken Council period, when the Vanak Spear adventures were. The Berenethtelli by that point have even incorporated lands north of the Black Eel by that point. In any case, I'm interested, moving forward (since there's only so much that can be wrung out of the First Age anyway) in reconstructing the Holayan culture of c.1330-1625, which must have some relationship to Arim's kingdom, even if Arim and his followers are being - like the Quivini - reactionary in their development of a new Tarshite identity. There's some old Aggar stuff in Enclosure 2 (1998) - by David Millions - and also by him in Moon Rites (2002).The Enclosure 2 article describes a culture fairly similar to that of 'modern' Tarsh or Sartar. The Moon Rites stuff renames some of the gods: we have Omath instead of Orlanth, Yurmal in the place of Eurmal, Ernalda, Elmal, and Odayla. Is there an Alakoring king/chiefship rite in Holay? Is Yelmalio the consort of Ernalda? Who does Redalda/Reladiva wed? Reladivus? And what god is he? Do the bells of Filichet have some relationship to the Bells of the Sun? (Thinking on this, if Nivorah had the lost bell goddess, is Nivorah the Afterworld for the descendants of the Riders? Are the bells of the Sun the bells of death because one is nearing the city of the dead? But surely the riders live on as riders, not in a city...) Did Hon-Eel reshape the Earth cult here as well as in Tarsh? What are the monsters on the walls of Fyllich Kwan? If Barnborn is Berenstead or Barntar's Sheaf is this 'known' mythically, or has the Empire and its predecessors synthesized a new myth for Holay? How far is the mythic horizon?

Going broke from tournaments was a serious problem, akin to gambling, and many a noblewoman tried to prevent their husbands and sons from going. Also, if you win too often in tournaments, there may be a lot of people owing you money with a motive to shank you as you ride from one to another. Possibly another reason Lancelot went incognito to so many...

Remember of course the God-time is perceived differently by different groups. There is no strict linear series of events. In Six Ages, for reference, the Rams are indeed Vingkotlings. The culmination of the game, as in King of Dragon Pass, is the founding of a new tribe/nation, the Berenethtelli (compelled by a catastrophe). The game begins with the Glacier having already happened, and Nivorah crushed by its wall. It is indeed at Jillaro, not in Saird. It is Elempur that lies in the vicinity of Mirin's Cross, not Nivorah, so there it agrees with you. Vingkot is an ancestor, it appears, of Redalda, not her literal father (though that is still possible; she is titled "Daughter of Vingkot', and Vingkot is known to have ruled in the past, before Nivorah was destroyed). However the Berenethtelli form in the game well before the Greater Darkness, so they may have moved, being Riders, in the meantime. The Dawn is still many relative years to go. Edit: the game has a stronger, somewhat more railroady narrative than KoDS. It clearly is depicting a series of events (should the clan survive) that result in history rather than a what-if series of events that has a freeform ending. The name of the clan, some cultural details and the composition of the clan leadership are all up to the player. The game's implied sequel is playing as the Berenethtelli.

Why do you say that? On the same page it says that some of these tribes are Tarshite. On p.32 the Alda-Chur tribes include two 'Yelmalio' tribes, that is, former Elmali tribes. On p.41 the 'Golden Spearman' cult in Alda-Chur is said to have been newly identified by Lunar missionaries with the son of Emperor Yelm. On p.44 we read: "During the Resettlement era, the Vantaros were known for their Elmal Golden Spearman cult and famed as troll-fighters. However, in the last century the Elmal Golden Spearman cult came under heavy cultural influence from the lowland solar cults of Dara Happa and Saird. After Monrogh revealed that they actually worshiped Yelmalio the Cold Sun, the Vantaros tribe became the only tribe in Sartar that embraced Yelmalio; elsewhere the Yelmalio cultists left their clans and tribes to join the Sun Dome Temple in south Sartar." It seems like declaring the Vantaros to have always been Yelmalions is a retcon. Alda-Chur was founded by Tarshites, i.e., descendants of Holayans and Aggari immigrants to Dragon Pass, as we read later on the same page: "Taros Ridgeleaper from Tarsh established Aldachur in the ruins of the fortress of Baran Breakearth, a great hero from before the Dragonkill." I'm just saying these explicit statements in an official publication don't seem to require a retcon, given that Six Ages states that the Holayan-predecessor people called their god Elmal. I do think that the Hendriki Elmal (which fed the later Yelmalio cult of Vaantar) was probably quite different from the Elmal Golden Spearman cult that came from Tarsh and earlier from Holay/Aggar.

Sir Godspeed is correct. I am drawing my theories from Six Ages. I have represented what the game depicts, in the understanding that the Riders (who call themselves thus, rather than Hyalorings) are being depicted as a part of Gloranthan history, not a non-canon outlier. Other survivors of Nivorah are Wheels (chariot-riders) and Walkers, and they don't get along with the Riders. Not all riders are Pure Horse (the player clan is not, and those that are are a distinct minority). This wiki, however, may prove more instructive than what I can tell you: https://sixages.fandom.com/wiki/Six_Ages_Wiki There is no question that Holayan and Berenethtelli history from before Holay is deeply connected with how the game depicts the region. Ulanin the Rider might come from Prax, but the Riders of Beren are from Nivorah. The Hyalor legend is represented in the game as indigenous to Nivorah, though this could be the blinders that the Riders themselves have. Certainly they make no mention of Prax or Genert's Garden. Yamsur, Little Sun, Elmal, and other sons of Yelm are depicted as different deities, but this may also be their point of view. The endgame does make clear that Beren's clan tends to see things in a less expansive way than their own gods. Elempur does not appear but is mentioned as destroyed by the Rams; the ruins can be visited. It typically appears south of the Black Eel lands in the midst of all the Rams. Its god is not named. Certainly Six Ages counts as much or more than secondary material developed a dozen or more years ago. I recommend trying out the game.

The name 'Yelmalio' was brought back by Monrogh (Sourcebook, p.26), and replaced Elmal. Also WF 15 p.30, "The Yelmalio cultists in Sartar descend from tribes who had worshiped Elmal, the Orlanthi Sun God, until that god was revealed to be Yelmalio, the Cold Sun." So while I accept that Jeff Richard has declared Elmal and Yelmalio the same, the name Elmal was used for Lightfore in northern Sartar and Tarsh, i.e., among the descendants of the people of Holay. I believe it has been stated that Yelmalio is a Dara Happan word which simply means 'Little Sun'. So in Holay it is possible that when speaking Northern Heortling the word was Elmal and in Dara Happan and Peloria dialects the word was Yelmalio. However the fact remains that the Little Sun cult in Tarsh and northern Sartar/Far Point did experience significant ritual and mythological changes under Monrogh. One question then is whether the Colymar Hyaloring Elmal resembled the Elmal/Yelmalio of Far Point. It is possible that there was already a major distinction between the cults that is obscured by a common name for their god. Monrogh's introduction of Yelmalio as a name for the god might be paired with a change to using Dara Happan or Firespeech in a ritual context instead of Northern Heortling. In which case the average Heortling probably still uses Elmal in ordinary parlance for the god. In which case the term Elmal exists in Far Point because the local language in Holay (as opposed to Saird) was the ancestor of Tarshite. So I'm retreating here a bit from the Elmal 'as opposed to Yelmalio' argument but I think it's fair to say that when the Tarshites and Far Point tribes settled Dragon Pass the ordinary name for the god was Elmal, and Monrogh among other things insisted on using the Dara Happan/Firespeech name in its place. Edit: In the main I think the point is that Holay is a Theyalan speaking region and still is, and if it wasn't, Tarsh wouldn't be speaking a Northern Heortling dialect. The cultural continuity of Holay to Tarsh particularly before 1459 is going to blur the two countries together. We can extrapolate things about Holay from Tarshite and Far Point culture and religion. Edit 2: Though we should be wary of the possible influence of the Shaker Temple, which I suspect is indigenous to Dragon Pass.

The logic behind Elmal surviving in Holay is that the Elmal-worshipping Tarshite tribes and clans who settled Far Point came from either Holay or Aggar. They would hardly have taken the name Elmal from the Hendriki since they had no contact with them until c.1330-50. They clearly, from the History of the Far Point (see the most recent WF) were Elmal worshippers from the beginning of their settlement. The Elmali of Runegate, however, seem to have been isolated from the other Hyaloring/Pure Horse Folk by the Dragonkill. However we know that Tharkantus was the (or a) name of Lightfore in Saird from Griffin Mountain. The Pure Horse who ended up in Pent and Prax of course call Lightfore Kargzant, which seems to be derived from the same root as Thar-Kantus. We can I think surmise that Elmal was Lightfore in Orlanthland, and it spread south from Saird and what is now Holay. Edit: Moreover, the name Elmal comes from Nivorah, not from Prax or Esrolia, where Lightfore and the Sun God were known by different names.

Note from the above that Elmal and Tharkantus are apparently co-existing in the Said-Holay region in c.945-1120.

The Hyaloring Triaty apparently 'survived the Adjustment Wars' so they clearly did settle among the Hendriki. Beren might have continued as an ancestor among other northern Heortling tribes who had intermarried with the now extinct Berenethtelli, however. Harmast, who _was_ a Berenethtelli, left sons in Esrolia and in Hendrikiland, as well, and is certainly a descendant of Beren, though not a horseman. Holaya's reconstruction of the Hyaloring tradition seems to have resurrected several gods, then, and among them Reydalda/Reladiva. This could correspond to the ancestors of dead tribes being revived among the Quivini. In any case, it would have been more than 90 years before the Dragonkill, sufficient time for a 'retro' Elmali horse cult to develop in response well before the Dragonkill. ?925 Alakoring slays Drang the Diamond Storm Dragon, in Aggar or Holay. 945 Alakoring is slain by an elf-arrow on the site of Banborn, later a city of Holay. The tomb of Alakoring is in Banborn. His slayer was Tobosta Greenbow, ‘an elf-lord of the Elder Wilds’, whom Alakoring had offended. Despite this Tobosta warred against the EWF afterwards. 960 ‘The Three Brothers Who Divided the World’ rule Carmania, Dara Happa, and Saird. Verenmars becomes king of Saird. Penkranthos is the seat of Verenmars ‘second age king of Saird’. This is now part of Vanch. Verenmars was the son of Sarenesh, a Dara Happan emperor. 1041 Filichet founded and dedicated to Redaylda by Yusando the Conqueror, the spot being chosen by the golden stallion (re-establishment of Lightfore as Tharkantus). Yusando ruled all of Dragon Pass north of the ‘Wide Pass’ and Kerospine. Yusando was later defeated in battle by Andrin the Conqueror at Dwarf Ford. Yusando seems to have ruled over the Alakorings and Sairdites. Yusando seems to a descendant of Verenmars. Nodnor near Fyllich Kwan was an EWF ruin, abandoned during the fall of the Sun Dragon. New cities are founded to replace the EWF citadels. Dwernapple’s Ernalda temple comes under the patronage of the Sairdite Warlord. The Necklace of Radiance is brought from Kerofinela by the conquerors. It later becomes part of the regalia of the Queen of Filichet. 1042 Kumardros issues the Call for Heroes. 1050 Death of Andrin the Conqueror. 1089 Balazar becomes king of Votankiland/the Elder Wilds. He is a worshipper of Tharkantus and an ally of Brother Dog. ‘Tharkantus’ may be a Dara Happan spelling of Kargzant, i.e. Thar-Kargzant, i.e., Yelmalio. c.1100 The ‘warlord of Saird’ rules all the Oslir valley from Sylila to the Liornvuli and Grizzly Peak. 1120 The Dragonkill. Around this time the Balazaring citadels are founded by the three sons of Balazar, who had been killed during the Dragonkill as a member of the True Golden Horde. Saird’s rulers (‘warlord’) also participated in the True Golden Horde and were killed. Possible transformation of the Forosilvuli into ‘Ornore’ with the destruction of the male bloodline. Verenmar’s line is extinguished. During the Scorch a flight of dragons destroys everything in its path as far as Lake Ivaress, but Filichet is spared. Fleeing Orlanthi settle in Holay and upper Saird, and establish new tribal kingdoms. The Danger Line runs in a semi-circle two hexes north of what is later Talfort to what is later Tarshford. This becomes the traditional boundary of Holay, which falls into slow collapse after losing its lifeblood, trade.

I'd go with the second one since they worship Beren as an ancestor. I think there's no Beren worship among the Praxian Pure Horse people but I could be mistaken.

How did the Hyaloring Triaty make their way to Sartar? They were not originally Colymar, of course. They arrived during the first wave, in 1320. This is before Arim crossed the Deathline, so it seems they were not part of the Holayan-Aggar migrations to the North. I would suggest that the Triaty were isolated from Holay by the Dragonkill in 1120. They originally dwelt north of the Ridgeline and fled south from the Dragons into Esrolia or Hendrikiland, probably the latter (Ernalda isn't dominant among them), being numbered among the 'foreign' clans. Thus they preserve the Holayan culture (including the Elmal and Redalda cults) as constituted by Queen Holaya. Note this means that changes in Holay that occurred between 1120 to 1330 had no impact on the Triaty. This were the very innovations, under Sairdite and Sylillan influence, that pressed Arim to cross the Line. Further edit: I would suggest that the resistance to the Yelmalio innovations is partly because the Spearman cult and the similarities between Elmal as worshipped in the Far Point and Tarsh and Monrogh's Yelmalio are all post-1120 developments. Elmal's cult in Runegate lacks certain key features that emerged in Elmal in Holay that were due to Sun Dome influence from Saird.

The Hyaloring Triatry worships Elmal as chief god, and Hyalor as an ancestor, like the 'Riders' of Six Ages. The also worship Kuschile. They worship Elmal's 'wife' Redalda. This indicates to me that Beren was lost as an ancestor and equated with Elmal himself. Thus the mating of Elmal and Redalda might have something to do with the reconstitution of the Bell Temple out of Nivorah.

Yes. Or rather, she's mentioned but 'lost' to the Hyalorings. Edit: this suggests to me that the Bell Temple's founding might be linked to Verenmars or the Queen of Holay heroquesting to find her. Further Edit: By connecting Redalda/Reydalda/Reladiva closer to Nivorah, this also undermines the Vingkotling heritage of the cult and 'Holayans' by reinforcing the importance of Elmal, the god of Nivorah. We can reconstructing Hyaloring/Berenethtelli Saird further by looking at the Hyaloring Triaty in Sartar, who are deeply conservative.

In apocryphal material, Zin Letters #4, p.9 describes Barntar's rescue from Chaos by the Black Eel river and the river goddess becoming the ally of Orlanth. That plus Barntar's Sheaf (Berenstead?) and the Barntar Hills in Holay suggests that Orlanth's son might have been significant here even before his father was displaced out of the Holay god-realm. Six Ages names the Rams who joined with some Hyalorings to form the Berenethtelli to Kasteytelli. This suggests a name Kastey, with the suffix echoing the Tarshite name Unstay. One interesting question is the possible relationship of the Bell Temple in Filichet with the bell goddess of Nivorah. She was 'left behind', so when asked about the goddess Inilla, the clan circle sometime says, ""We had to leave our bell goddess behind when we left Nivorah. Inilla sometimes sings, though." In Naveria, Benbeng (or JedaBenBen) is the bell and sacred starter goddess, the beginner of rituals, summoner of the other goddesses. She has some vague similarities to Ernalda, and seems to be a sister of Moon goddess. She is the aunt of Busenari, who closely resembles Uralda/Eiritha. In a general sense we can identify the bell sound with goddesses of community and fertility. Natha's relationship to bells has a link to Benbeng as Natha is Benbeng's great-niece. Moreover Busenari in Six Ages is associated with a magic bell, though three other magic bells are used in battle to strike fear into enemies. 'Ben-tus' the mead/ecstasy god may be connected to Ben-Ben[g] as he is worshipped with bells and dancing. In the Book of Heortling Mythology, chimes and bells are associated with the birth of Umath. It is the sound of the joy of the Earth at the caress of the wind. Tarsh in Flames associates copper bells with the authority of Earth priestesses, such as the Maran Gor temple, at the executions of the condemned, and in the Sedrodosa witches' command of spirits, and the sound of bells defines the distance from which an outcast must remain apart from their city. [Is this the reason that the bell goddess was left behind, because the bell was the sacred sound of the city precinct, from which the Hyalorings had cast themselves out?] In TotM 17 the goose dance involves bells. 'What the Grazer Shaman Says' tells us that the Sun Bells summon the dead to the side of Yu-Kargzant. I think therefore in general the bells of Filichet delineate and create sacred space/sensation, conjuring the rhythms of the God-time. Compare the use of music and dance by the Waltzing and Hunting Bands, and the Proximate Holy Realm of Orlanthland, and of course, the Puppeteer Troop.

I should probably say 'canonical rich brother in the French literature'. Gareth does marry Lyonesse, in Malory and KAP, though Malory puts Castle Dangerous next to Avalon, not in Lancashire. The KAP Duchy in Perilous Forest is about a quarter the size of the later county of Lancashire, however, so it looks more like a palatine barony. A 'rich' knight, however, is not a baron. Greg here has a different vision than Malory, who of course describes himself as a 'poor knight'. By the 15th century the RT also has quite a few impoverished knights, particularly in the Guiron cycle. I guess the average fictional knight, like Greg describes, has a handful of manors, but very few of the RT knights are described as barons, counts, or higher nobles, unless they're a seeming 'political' appointment, like the subject kings. But the historical counterpart to Palomides, or Lamorak, or Percivale, is William the Marshal, who only achieved wealth and status late in life, despite being a trusted retainer of kings and princes. One of the casualties of the realism in KAP is the idea of the penniless knight errant as a plausible hero. Percivale has no manors and no income except from winning tournaments and impromptu jousts. Lamorak is a hunted wanderer who travels incognito. Tristram spends quite a few years in the same predicament.

Neither Tristram nor Palomides are interested in the Lady of the Laundes' hand (they're doing it for the Glory), so a third-place finisher has a shot with her. Though she may be offended at not being 'chosen' and call it all off. In any case no one marries her in the Prose Tristan: Palamedes refuses to because of Isolde, and Tristan likewise. She may have grounds to dislike Isolde for overshadowing her moment.

Yes, knowing where they live part of the year, is kind of interesting and important. It's heavily implied in the L-G that the the Orkney brothers aren't all that well off and survive off their uncle's largesse. Arthur keeps deferring giving them Lothian and Orkney. It's finally agreed to give Orkney to Gareth and he refuses it. But no doubt they have at least a few manors in Logres near court. Gawaine's sister ends up with the Castle of Marvels. Mordred eventually secures Lothian and uses it to establish his powerbase for the Downfall. He's the only canonically 'rich' Orkney brother. The Galis clan suffers the most losses, of course, with northern Cambria lost after Pellinore's death and the destruction of Listeneisse. They're shown to be landless knights errant. A PK theoretically could take in one of Pellinore's sons as a household knight or give them a manor and hey presto you have an impressive ally (and a bunch of new enemies). Lancelot, if I recall correctly, doesn't really profit beyond Joyeuse Garde, but his exiled kin are more than willing to ride his coattails and take lands in conquered lands, or in the demense of JG. One of the curious features of KAP is while PKs are angling to amass wealth and titles, the leading canon RTKs are often quite poor, surviving off the tournament circuit.

The one advantage of having scattered holdings is that it helps to finesse the occasional mentions of some Round Table knight having a manor or castle in the middle of nowhere in the Lancelot-Grail (Agravaine, for example, has a tower and manor in Norgales, the De Ganis clan has holdings scattered across Britain - in Ergyng, in Cornwall, and of course, in Garloth).

Welsh Arthurian material continued to grow and develop alongside the French and English (etc.) literature, and seems to have evolved as well. There are triads that clearly refer to Vulgate stories, and Welsh translations of Chretien and the Grail romances were circulating. It did have a conservative element, but it's clear from Ellis Gruffudd and others that it was a part of Welsh folklore and entertainment as much as it was English into the 16th century. However during the 16-17th centuries there was a major cultural break in Wales, namely the Reformation, which gradually saw the disintegration of the oral-based bardic/storytelling tradition. By the 18th century and the Methodist revival the 'pagan' and 'Catholic' tradition (as it was seen) of poetry and stories about legendary heroes had been essentially lost. The modern Eisteddfods are a modern revival. While it might appear that Welsh Arthurian literature is essentially conservative because of Culhwch ac Olwen (c.1150), I think that's simply because that story happened to have survived. Some names and places in the Vulgate or Lancelot-Grail are direct transliterations from the Welsh (like Gazewilte, which is Croes Oswyllt, or Oswestry in English) which suggests a Welsh source for some parts of the French romance, without an English intermediary. For this reason I suspect that there were stories being developed in Wales and Norman Wales for a bilingual French and Welsh audience that were revised into the Vulgate. The so-called retcons you mentioned are from that milieu. It's only natural that these stories might have been written down only in French, as the Welsh versions were oral. It's a great pity that this tradition died, but such is the fate of the oral traditions of many colonized peoples.

I agree. KetTuros is Turos as a City God and KetEnari means 'City Mother'. Ket means City in NW Peloria, at least. Filichet = City of 'Fili[k]'. Edit: Nochet as a 'charter/polis' is not incompatible with 'ket' or 'chet' meaning 'community'. Edit 2: Fili-chet of course sounds like Filly-chet, but that's just the way sounds in English sometimes seem to hint at things in Glorantha. But Fili or Phila could still mean 'horse, mare'.

The Welsh stuff is often the least accessible, as Arthur was one of us... I'm Welsh... I feel I must represent for Cymru. English language stuff and to a lesser extend French and German material isn't as hard to access. I read and have a collection of virtually everything however.

As for the whole widow and young heir thing, not only is it relatively common historically (being a knight is not always a safe occupation), but would be quite common after the Feast, I'd think. Derfel is Corneus' nephew. GPC, p.92. Why Lucan and Bedivere didn't inherit, at best guess, is because they were illegitimate?