Richard S.

It's permanent POW, yes. What spells are needed where and cast by who is heavily planned and regulated, so the POW loss is negligible on the scale of Mostali projects. I believe the old Elder Secrets book mentioned that dwarves would passively gain POW every year or so by following the way of Mostal, making up for the loss incurred by the few spells they'd needed to cast themselves in that period. I imagine that dwarf technology more than makes up for their limited use of spells.

Of course sometimes plans go awry, and there are times when dwarves are forced to run themselves dry in constant magic use, but their recycling is a necessary sacrifice. And maybe the Silvers have found ways to make other types of tools pay the cost, like unfortunate spirit batteries or human captives.

I think there's some confusion since "Thunderbolt" could refer to either the noise of thunder or the Rune spell Thunderbolt (which is really a lightning bolt).

4 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

His murders aftermath has made him destined to be devoured by entropy so I don’t think he views his current situation as an improvement 

Time is what prevents the gods from being devoured by entropy. Sure, entropy's a part of time now, but the gods are protected from it. I'd say that's an improvement from sitting in the underworld waiting to be devoured by Kabajor.

7 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

“We have long ago paid the goblins trolls of Moria Dagori Inkarth,” said Thorin Isidilian; “we must give a thought to the Necromancer.”

8 hours ago, Beoferret said:

This thread is raising a question in my mind: wouldn't any and all Humakti desert anyone who allied with Delecti (a hero of undeath)? 

Did the Storm Bulls desert the Praxian when they allied with Broo against the Lunars? Mortals are still capable of working with a lesser evil to defeat a greater, just don't let them get too close to each other when there's no other enemies stopping. And Humakt is far less focused on undead killing than Storm Bull is on chaos killing.

2 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

is soul and spirit the same thing or not ?

what about spirit without POW (or spirit unable to restore its "power" (mp)  ? is it still a spirit or a hollow shell ? like an undead in the spirit plan ?

Without getting into the whole can of worms that is the three worlds, technically yes but nowadays it's basically semantics I think. Personally I use "spirit" to refer to something that has POW, CHA, and sometimes INT, while a soul is just POW, but that's my own Glorantha.

I don't think I've ever seen a spirit without POW, but I think shamans would definitely be weirded out by it.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Gark is listed with the Chaos pantheon, but what is his Chaos?

Gark is another agent of deceptive Chaos, like Gbaji and Ompalam. He runs a massive scam by offering eternal life and peace, then slaughtering the poor and wretched en masse and reanimating their bodies. The souls never get to experience his eternity, and the bodies remain in perfect peace with no mind to trouble them.

New Topic for undead discussion so it doesn't completely derail this.

28 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

"Undead as physical creatures laking soul"  seems to me a better Gloranthan  definition, it is enough clear and concise. But am I wrong ?

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Do Jolanti have a soul (other than those in Aggar liberated from Nida by Gonn Orta who were gifted by the Aldryami)?

The Humakti definition of undeath is "maintaining a body separate from its spirit". IMO, that implies that undead need to a) have had a spirit at one point and b) have lost that spirit but still remain physically active.

That's the right bandit god, look in CoR: Lightbringers for a full writeup. The same way that Gagarth hunts lost and lonely spirits, his worshipers hunt lost and lonely travelers. They are murderers, thieves, and outcasts who can ride the wind to run down their prey, then sacrifice them to turn their spirits into hate-filled whirlvishes to swell the wild hunt.

He isn't a strong god, his only Rune spells (including commons) are Extension, Sanctify, Command Whirlvish, Create Whirlvish, Windwalking, and Wind Warp, and he doesn't have any subcults or associates. Every other reasonable cult hates him and his worshipers, and they return the feeling.

Edit: I just noticed that Gagarth doesn't provide any summoning spells, despite commanding the whole Wild Hunt. Seems like once you're in, you're in forever.

19 minutes ago, Cassius said:

I don't see lightning as something that belongs to the sky because sky is fire. For me, lightning is inherently a storm/air power and phenomenon.

Personally, I think it's stranger if that sort of bright, burning energy isn't originally a fire power, even if they lost it. The powers of Air largely deal with wind, noise, temperature, and personal strength; I don't think any air gods save for Orlanth have such visual and immediately damaging magic, they prefer worshipers to fight with their own weapons.

I wonder what the difference between the Thunderbolt and the Lightning spear is. They both certainly look like similar phenomena, but the former is seemingly intrinsic to Orlanth, and was one of the powers he put into the Thunder Bird, while the latter was stolen from the Sky gods.

Just now, Jens said:

Anything added to the Cults books after it was published. 

Fair enough lol. I don't think we've seen any examples of that yet though.

11 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Not quite all, but plenty.

What doesn't it have?

1 hour ago, John Biles said:

That's the scam which keeps Dara Happa in line.

But in practice, Yelm isn't really in charge of anything and certainly the Red Emperor is not really taking orders from Yelm or his cult.

The Lunar cults control the Empire and the Red Emperor is closer to them than to Yelm. 

But this isn't the first time a cuckoo took over the Dara Happans as the Draconic Emperor pulled pretty much the same scam.

Of course the red emperor isn't taking orders from Yelm or his cult, he's the one giving them! For all intents and purposes, he is Yelm, on earth. Well at least for the Pelorians, the Pentans don't really agree. But in any case, he's the grandson of Yelm and son of the Red Goddess, and high priest for both Yelm Imperator and the Red Goddess, and so controls nearly all the lunar and solar cults.  There's no scam, the Red Goddess and her message have been accepted as part of the cosmic order, and unlike the Sun Dragon, which was an enemy that only took the nation by conquest, the Red Emperor was a respected ally of Yelmgatha and named as his heir.

Most of my sources are the same ones I linked in my initial post, plus the Sourcebook and Guide.

Edit: I think your points are pretty close to how Pentans would see things, though they also probably see Dara Happa as a false empire on principle.

14 minutes ago, John Biles said:

Yelm is basically the Red Goddess' flunky at this point.

Yelm is very much still in charge. The Red Emperor - Yelm's representative - rules, not his mother. She gave mortals the tools to change the world, but she doesn't care what is done with those tools. Jar-Eel is the closest thing to a mortal representative of the Goddess, and she definitely takes orders from the emperor.

They oppose chaos when it must be opposed, but they're illuminated, having overcome the unthinking fear and hatred towards it that others have. Yelm is illuminated because of his death and confrontation with his shadow, but I don't recall why Humakt and Ourania are.

The Red Goddess is Yelm's daughter because she proved she was. Yes, chaos is evil, but the Red Goddess can control it, making it serve Yelm's order.

Edit: Here's some reading that touches on the subject:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/yelm-chaos/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/notes-on-humakt/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/non-chaotic-cults-primal-chaos/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/humakti/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/notes-on-the-red-goddess-and-chaos/

Pre-1629 I think they at least share parts of the same soul.

Post-1629 I think it's a new guy.

Technically yes, since Umath for all intents and purposes is the Air rune. I think it'd be slightly more accurate though to say that Umath had the potential for those powers. It wasn't until later in creation, after Umath was superceded in importance, that those powers would be discovered.

Orlanth is the greatest of the storm gods, inheritor of most of Umath's power, and owner of the Air rune. He proved that in the godtime through his strength, overcoming the air gods that fought against him and earning the loyalty of those who didn't. Lightning Boy and Heler were originally enemies from different families, but after their defeat they became his friends, and afaik he's the only one who can call on them for rain and lightning. Valind, and Vadrus' other kids, he overcame and forced to submit.

Those powers are generally associated with Air/Storm, yes, but not all air gods have the same level of influence over it. Orlanth is the primary weather god (or even just the weather itself), and can influence most kinds of wind, precipitation, thunder, lighting, etc. Some of these powers are technically held by other gods, like Heler (rain) and Lightning Boy (lightning), but Orlanth commands when and where they fall. As for his relatives, they're only associated with smaller parts of the atmosphere. Storm Bull is the god of the desert wind, Gagarth is the god of whirlwinds, Valind is the north wind, Inora is the goddess of snow, Molanni/Entekos/Brastalos is the goddess of still air, Daga is the god of drought, and Kolat is the great spirit of all winds. Orlanth can command all of them at need.

12 minutes ago, Nicochan said:

Bonus question about the red book magic: does it contain any new spells compared to the core book?

A lot. The RBoM has 64 spirit magic spells and 449 Rune magic spells. The core book has 53 spirit and 176 rune. The new spirit magic spells are mostly cult exclusives, and there's a list of who teaches them. The new Rune magic is mostly for currently unpublished cults and doesn't say where it comes from, though you can figure out a lot from older material.

I did phrase it badly. What I meant was essentially that while it isn't a problem for my own campaign, I don't think it makes sense in general for there to be a way outside of Yelmalio to access that sort of solar power in the darkness. And while maybe this "sunspot" power does come from Yelmalio, I feel that it's easier to just say that the spell that already makes the caster "glow like the sun" counts as sunlight, rather than making a whole separate rune spell.

Anyways, if you do want a Sunspot spell, I think effect wise it would be pretty similar to Sunbright. It'd probably create a radius of sunlight around the target, functioning as normal sunlight but also allowing sunlight-based magic.  Probably it'd be Self rather than Ranged. Maybe it's a little narrower, say 6 meters, and manifests as a vertical column of light from Lightfore or some other celestial body, like a spotlight.

Personally, I'm just going to keep running Sunbright as counting as sunlight. And even if it doesn't, I don't really think its a problem that can/should be fixed. If a heroquester tried to find some fragment of the sun remaining in the darkness, they'd find Yelmalio.

7 minutes ago, Malin said:

Isn't this exactly like recasting the spell though? Apart from not having to make the cast roll, which is rarely a big issue outside of combat.

Kind of, though there was no casting roll in RQ2. You can't fight in melee and cast a spell in the same round though, so in long (>10 rounds) fights it has some value.