Glorion

Except that the lower classes , per Greg, have a higher standard of living than anywhere else in Glorantha, due to the Lunar Empire actually getting things organized for once, and some very useful Lunar magics. Even the slaves, if not victim to particular mistreatments, probably eat better than Orlanthi thralls.

Praying in church? Heck no. Dancing and feasting in the fields, to the annoyance of the feudal lords. An excuse not to do any work. Soldiers ignored saint's days as suicidal during an actual war, and if no enemy soldiers around, pillaging, looting and sacking cities was more fun, besides being the main way that large bodies of soldiers could be fed and paid, as taxation had largely not been invented yet.

The thing never made it to serious discussions about publication with Avalon Hill I don't think. I was running the playtest version which I'd gotten access to, but it wasn't really a playtest, it was simply my house campaign, as I preferred its rules to RQ3 rules. I did participate in the email discussion forum about it Chaosium set up, and contributed my own suggestions for new sorcery rules, which weren't adopted (and none of the PC's in my campaign were sorcerors, it was your usual Orlanthi Dragon Pass and Prax campaign, including a lot of stuff from the published RQ3 materials). I posted them elsewhere on this blog. The final breakdown between Avalon Hill and Chaosium actually happened after the RQ4 fiasco ended, I think.

Those who want to be that sort of economically inefficient generalists are liable to be Orlanth initiates. The farmers, generally more prosperous and living better, might initiate to Barntar, or might simply be content to marry an Ernaldan wife with Bless Crops, and just be a lay member of everything and not have to pay 10% tithes, a very serious matter.

Some discussion here I see of real world models for things like minor holy days. Be it noted that in medieval Catholic Europe, you had about 115 saint and other holy days per year, during which the serfs in the countryside would celebrate the saint instead of working in the fields, and craftsmen in the cities likewise. One of the major reasons why the German nobles and princes and the merchants in the cities were so enthused for Luther, as Lutheranism abolished all that. The Calvinists took that further, even abolishing Christmas, seeing it as a pagan holiday in Christian disguise. In Puritan New England, anyone trying to celebrate Christmas was likely to be put in the stocks and decorated with thrown rotted vegetables by his neighbors, and suspected of being a witch.

I actually ran a campaign in it. Basically, it wasn't terribly different from RQ3 in feel as a game. RQ3 rules were refined a bit, they overall seemed like improvements to me, but yes, were a bit more complex, something I don't particularly mind. It died because the main author got into very serious personal legal trouble, so Chaosium dropped it like a hot potato, not wanting to be associated with that.

Actually, that sounds pretty good to me, not that different from my notions actually, rather putting them in roleplaying rather than rules mechanics terms, which is good. Be it noted that this would be very hard to pull off right in the middle of an adventure, but players creative enough to pull something like that off I would certainly want to reward, and not just with runepoint refills.

Well yes, but they only take a day, so spending a week to learn a runespell seems impossible for almost all cults. I think spending a whole day should do it, but only on a holy day, and probably, as per Joerg's new posting which I don't actually see as contradicting my notions, as part of a ceremony with a considerable number of enthused participants energizing it with their mana.

That always struck me as strange and illogical, since, unlike with spirit spell learning, it is a deity teaching you in return for sacrificing a bit of your soul mana. In my campaign, it takes a whole day just like regaining RP, but can *only* be done on a holy day in a temple or shrine or at least a sanctified spot. Whether this is possible on a minor holy day is something I am discussing with my players, they naturally think they should be able to and I naturally as GM think it shouldn't be possible. One possible compromise is that you can't do it except as part of a daylong communal holy day ceremony, not a Sanctified holy day ceremony in the middle of an adventure out in the sticks. Which probably doesn't usually happen on minor holy days, or no work would ever get done.

Thanks Bill, that actually worked! I must say patience has not always been my main virtue.

Not on my computer it seems. I choose the text I want to quote and ... nothing happens. Or is this the multiquote thing you're talking about? I've never tried that.

Hey, will try to do that.

Bill, you're confusing me here, as what I type myself tends to be shorter than what a lot of other folk do, you sometimes included. If you want to quote anything at all from anyone else, as far as I know you hit the quote key and the whole damn thing comes up. On one posting of mine today I actually did painstakingly remove from the quote everything that wasn't relevant, which is a pain in the ass. I will do that more often. And why you are complaining to me in particular I don't get, as right on this very page, #8 in this thread, there are plenty of quote infested postings as long or longer than the ones I do.

As for people without high POW, they are the ones who get frequent POW gain rolls suitable for getting new Runepoints. If you have high POW and aren't a priest, POW gain rolls are few and far between. Yes, there are NPCs in some of the recently published adventures who have fewer spells than their number of runepoints. This is merely sloppy writing, one of the reasons why we have edit suggestion threads for "Smoking Ruins" and so forth here on this website. Just ran "Days End" at Dundracon, that one turns out to need a whole heck of a lot of work.

If you go to your average Sartarite stead planning to kick somebody's ass, the community will kick your ass, you foreigner clan enemy you. As for claiming that adventurers go on adventures for the benefit of the community, well, sometimes. But, as stated very clearly in Guide to Glorantha, that is definitely not the opinion of their communities of adventurers. GoG p. 16: "As a matter of note, the word for “adventurer” does exist in most Gloranthan languages. The word means many things, but usually indicates someone taking risks, often illicit or at least without too many scruples, for selfish personal gain." Which, realistically, is the perfect description of your average RQ PC, which Chaosium knows well. Nor was this a new concept, similar statements in various old RQ3 materials. Perhaps a bit different in HW and HQ, but that is not what we are playing. Every official comment from Chaosium ever about how many initiates there are in the general population has been that they are a small minority. You have to hunt for them as it's not a popular concept, which Chaosium now that Greg ain't around anymore may abandon due to its unpopularity. I think it's realistic, though Bless Crops does punch a big hole in it.

Tribal center yes, during Sacred Time. One of the cities? No, unless they live in one, as few do. Eurmal initiates need to travel around a lot because staying in one place for too long is highly unsafe for them. If that gives them access to additional runespells that is merely a happy coincidence. Your average Eurmali is quite satisfied with his one and only runespell. They are jokesters not powergamers, and practicing one joke to do it just right is hard enough.

Hm? That's a strange interpretation. As it says quite clearly in the Guide to Glorantha and many other places in the canon, those who go on adventures are considered those who are selfish, doing things for themselves instead of doing their communal and religious responsibilities. So if you took that literally, adventurers would generally get fewer cult runespells than nonadventurers. Actually, the clause about "exceptional services" is a way to allow GM's to allow access to additional cult runespells to adventurers *without* sacrifice of POW to gain runepoints in return for service to the cult above and beyond the call of duty in an exceptional fashion. As for point 3, the word "adventurers" is used for the simple reason that however nonadventurers get the runespells they have is off the screen and irrelevant to the game. Presumably it is the same, not that it matters except conceptionally.

As I read the rules, it doesn't matter how many points a spell has. Get a new rune point, learn a new rune spell, and it doesn't matter whether it costs one rune point or three, or even more.

Yeah, that's what I tell them.

Funny, my players complain that the warriors can't go up in power because, unlike magicians who cast Befuddle and whatnot, the only way they can get a POW check is through worship ceremonies on the High Holy Day or Sacred Time, so how can they ever get any Runespells, except maybe one point a year? Crits and specials on Battle from battles are pretty rare birds, especially since I only have them in battles when you have actual battles in the official timeline, as one can hardly roleplay them without a cast of hundreds and thousands. As I'm in a slow campaign, where a year of game time is about a year of actual time as each season has a multi session adventure, they find that extremely limiting. I actually let my players get POW checks for successful worship during seasonal holy days, but want to limit that by saying they have to get "natural" successes, no augments of any nature, so they actually have to work on their Worship skill

Actually, that is all true and completely besides the point. During holy day ceremonies, lay members give one magic point, and initiates ... two. So in terms of the strength of the community, if it's mostly lay members, it is the worship of the lay members more than that of the initiates which strengthens the community and wyter and the deity magically. As for the warriors and the merchants and the nobles and probably the craftsmen, yes they have to be initiates, but they are a small minority of the Sartarite population--probably 10% in fact, these are barbarians after all, this isn't Peloria. In warfare, it's the warriors who'd damn well better be initiates of a wargod who matter, not the spear carrying farmer-herder arrow fodder. Who if they happen to be initiates and manage a DI, their DI would usually be "feets, do your stuff." How many warriors a community of farmers and herders can field is totally dependent on how prosperous it is, so Bless Crops is the most powerful magical-military weapon around. Unlike Praxian nomads, every single one of whom is a warrior, which is why in real life nomads did so well so often against civilized empires before gunpowder and such. But who are spirit magic oriented, so also probably not initiates. They get their powerful magics from their powerful shamans, not from runespells from Waha.

Good point. And that is why the Lunar Heartland is much more prosperous than Sartar and people live better there, even if Orlanth-Ernalda magic and initiate percentages are better. Living in a land where violence is always an option can definitely be problematic.

As has been pointed out, it's the richer tribe that will win, not necessarily the one with more initiates. The richer tribe will have better weaponry, and can buy more magic, spirit matrices etc., and quite simply will be larger, with more spear carrying farmers. And even more importantly, more capable of having large numbers of warriors and nobles living off the farmers and herders. Now, Ernaldan crops magic is the exception, as the tribe with the most casters of Bless Crops will automatically be richer. And as for marriage, you have it backwards. Which women consistently attract and can keep the most desirable males, i.e. the ones with the most cows? The most prosperous ones, who can bring the most and best land into the marriage.

Hm. Yes, you are correct, I overlooked that. So yes, with that in the rules every farmwife will want to be an initiate of Ernalda or the land goddess, be crazy not to. Which throws my argument right into a cocked hat. Presumably something similar has to be true in the Lunar Empire for farmers, who no doubt have access both to Bless Crops from the land goddess and even better stuff, Hon-eel and maize and so forth, so the same should be true in the Lunar Empire as well. I still don't think it makes that much sense for every male to be a cult initiate, as if you are a farmer not a warrior you don't spend your whole life fighting. It's mostly the warriors on all those raids and counterraids. Actually, to my taste it really ought to be that all lay members get all the benefits from Ernalda's blessings and that actual Ernalda initiates should pay extra, but such is life. The economy system for farmers in the book is not consistent with the concept that only some 10% of Sartarite women are lay members.

Definitely true! Either Chaosium should say to hell with realistic notions of Glorantha, this is just a game anyway, and accept the popular call to make everyone in sight an initiate, or this should be clarified. Not least clarified to the folk writing supplements and adventures! I'm somewhat pleased to be reminded that you had less profusion of rune magic in RQ2 than in RQ3. RQG is after all based on 2 which was popular, not 3 which was less so.