SDLeary

I'm using graze, but you could easily call it a superficial wound, as it is more severe than a paper cut or rug burn. Any human scale weapon, and any human scale non explosive missile weapon should be able to inflict a single point of damage at a minimum. In terms of missile weapons, once we get to larger caliber items, like .50 BMG, the base threshold should probably be raised to 2. All of this is just opinion of course, but I do see an issue with weapons that can leave an area useless, if using Locations, with the lowest possible damage rolls. *cough* Kukri SDLeary

It appears though as if you have omitted the attackers weapon strike rank in your example. Even a long spear will mean that the archer gets to loose before the attacker strikes. SDLeary P.S. -- What edition are you using. Classic has no combat example on p.17, and I don't see one in the near by pages. The only example is one about ENC.

Mainly because like firearms, Melee weapons, and archaic missile weapons can graze. A broadsword at min does 2-3 points of damage. Considering thats 1/6 to 1/4 the HP of the average character, thats not really a graze. Lowering that minimum to 1 or two (two assuming a damage bonus) shouldn't adversely affect interaction with armor that much (depending on which armor values we choose). SDLeary

If its a rapier or epee then I can agree. Most swords though probably have a higher chance of encountering an artery in the limb areas, and if thrusting will have a larger entrance wound (and an increased chance of cutting an artery), though admittedly not the expanding wound channel of a bullet. If we are going to ignore armor (or have it) with bullets, and keep things at full with Melee, then the only real issue with Melee is the adds. Minimize or eliminate those, and I think Melee is good. SDLeary EDIT: Oh... and moving great sword back to 1d12

This is a simple solution for the current range of firearms damage, but it still leaves firearms too powerful against unarmored characters. And I think simulation is probably the wrong term. I'm not actually trying to model firearms, as much as I'm trying to provide more accurate terminal results. So I guess you could say I'm more modeling the effects of firearms on their targets rather than firearms themselves. For example, I have no trouble eyeballing firearms damage. I do think that Sandy's groundwork and the OPs formula does set things too high though. SDLeary

Well, yes. That does take us to the second part of the problem. A spear or sword skewering you is going to ruin your day more probably than a hit from a 22. We do need to adjust firearms, and in my opinion down. I'm not sure we have to more than tweak Melee though. The nature of firearms is such that it essentially rendered ancient armor obsolete, or at least made it so difficult to make an effective armor that weight of armor becomes a serious issue. This was done because of the force applied by the projectile would punch right thru, with enough retained force (yes, I know I'm not using the accurate terms here) to still cause serious injury. In order to deal with this, I think we need to revive an idea that we'e floated on these forums before: Penetration Value. Whether this would be a class/class number, or simply a number of armor points that the projectile ignored, I'm not sure of the right answer at the moment. We should probably take that to another thread though if we want to talk about that. In fact, we might want to do that anyway as we have strayed quite a bit from the original topic. I would allow something like that on a normal hit. On a special or critical, I would think that the damage (either due to meat damage or organ damage) would be to severe for them to treat themselves, assuming they remain conscious. Assuming they are conscious, perhaps something like this to slow the bleeding, but as for treating the injury, that would be a First Aid roll. Come now! You've cut yourself shaving! You know how hard it can be to get things to stop! I see your point. So yes, a modifier rather than equal or greater success level. SDLeary

Not necessarily. There are numerous instances of people with "serious wounds" surviving for some time before receiving medical attention, and the medical crews really have no idea how they survived. In my proposal, based on the 10 pt wound, the person would bleed out in an hour or two, assuming no medical intervention. There are also situations where wounding is not that significant, but the wound is in just the right place; femoral or brachial arteries anyone? So the subject of the two point special would bleed out, on average in about 50 min; possible with a nick in the arteries mentioned, but probably a bit on the slow side. As a note, at this point I'm not contemplating armor, only the wound to the character, so that which makes it through armor. I could go for a CON roll, sure. The issue there becomes how often? I'm also not sure if I would penalize a fumble in this instance. We already have rules for movement aggravation of injuries. Now, I could see myself requiring a First Aid of equal or greater success level in order to staunch the bleeding. SDLeary

Yes, to some extent this is true. Witness the performance of 5.7x28 mm, and 4.6x30 mm rounds against body armor and helmets. Generally good at defeating armor, but not much good at doing anything else. SDLeary

This makes sense. I think baby steps though are needed in order to get people into the correct mindset with firearms. I would probably go with 1HP/hr for a normal hit; 1HP/turn for a Special; and 1HP/melee round for a Critical. Fast enough on the low end for players to take notice, and slow enough on the high end that there aren't completely caught off guard for something to save their character. This would force some GMs to remain in "combat" until the danger passed rather than simply the end of combat. Add to this rolls for consciousness and/or shock, and you keep the deadliness of firearms, with a much more "real world" take on their actual effects. SDLeary

I think they happen a lot more than many realize, and the larger the round the less likely to occur, but they still do. Witness the reports from the troops of several nations serving in Iraq and Afghanistan that reported torso hits with their 5.56mm, but then their targets getting up to continue their advance. This prompted a quick re-evaluation by many nations, and essentially is responsible for the emergence of the modern Designated Marksman at the squad level, with a medium caliber weapon to provide a heavier punch. And while the heavier punch helps, even DM's have reported people getting up and moving off. Body Armor? Possibly. To the best of my knowledge though, none of our opponents over there wear the bulky armor to fend off rifle rounds, the way our own troops do. Depending upon the hit point economy and scope of the game, yes. At the very least getting rid of the adds, and reintroducing the D12 to handle those weapons that use 2d6. In all honesty I would probably rework the list so that pistols start our slightly lower (1d4?), and having a bit of overlap between large caliber handguns and small caliber rifles. At baseline BRP with standard HP and Major Wounds, I think bleeding would be enough, perhaps with 1pt/turn on a special, and 1pt/melee rd on a critical. If using Locations, then you also have the regular incapacitation rules once a location drops below 0 HP. SDLeary

Well... a 7.62 rifle round can graze first of all. Or just give a flesh wound. A hit in the limb (or even certain parts of the torso), even with a medium size round like that, can just be a flesh wound, going right through and hurting like hell, but otherwise not hindering the recipient. Thats a pretty hard low end to achieve with an add of 4, or any add for that matter. Many modern rounds have to fragment, or tumble in cavity, to achieve their true capabilities. Fragmentation and tumbling doesn't always occur. Most deaths occur when a round hits an artery and the subject bleeds out. If the round is a small one, there might only be a small entry wound and very little actual damage. Some deaths occur when a vital organ is hit, and shock causes it to stop. Death is not instantaneous. With firearms weighted as they are, any average rifle hit on a limb should see large chunks of flesh flying off. A crit... sure, but not an average hit. I think in order to normalize the list closer to real world observation, the d12 has to be revived, and all adds removed. SDLeary

True, but some use it as the default. I have actually heard (rarely but it has happened) that firearms aren't powerful enough. Which can be changed or adapted. Back in the RQIII days, we did have bleeding on any Special with any bladed weapon. The assumption being that an artery was hit. A little perhaps. Really just participating in the discussion. There is always room for improvement, and bouncing ideas off of each other is a fine way to formulate a house rule. SDLeary

I haven't actually run RQ6/Mythras yet, or played in more than a handful of games (life), but I get much the same feeling. As a consequence, I would probably default to a single weapon, or two weapon combination with perhaps a special effect or tactic. "Militia" would be Spear, Shield, Shieldwall for example. This eliminates the "class lite" aspect referenced by g33k, but also gives a little character flavor. Even if everyone is part of the Town Militia, there is a reason Chauncey always carries the bow, his skill. SDLeary

I'm not sure better specials are needed though, at least if damage is properly scaled. If we reduce a .22/Light Pistol to, say, 1d4, then an impale is still 2d4, or a critical 8 points. Assuming normal hit points, a critical with this weapon would still be a major wound for all up to HP 16. Probably a better starting point, though it does eliminate insta-kills for lower powered weaponry.* And the other thing to remember is that current weapon damage was formulated with normal hit points. "Heroic" hit points actually makes things possibly slightly underpowered, though I haven't looked too closely into that. SDLeary *insta-kills don't exist outside of headshots (and even that is debatable) and very very rare hits directly to the heart. EVERYTHING else is bleed out of varying speed... IMHO.

You could find a copy of Delta Green (the old one), or The Weapons Compendium (by John Crowe III, Pagan Publishing 1995), upon which the DG data is based on. In DG, they have a large listing of firearms, mostly "modern", but they also break down things to individual rounds. They also provide info for D20, so you can use sources for that an back engineer if you want to. Just for reference though, I do think that firearms damage is too high, in general, especially for pistols. SDLeary

This. In fact this many times over. A Spitzer is going to have greater range and penetration, but is going to probably transfer less energy to its target when compared to a round nose or a ball. I think Sandy tried to use a muzzle energy calculation when trying to figure firearms damage for Cthulhu Now. He mentioned using Janes as a source and ending up with some really odd results, so he fudged. I'm not sure if he just ended up eyeballing it, or using his calculations as a basis and then moving things up or down. SDLeary

I don't actually recall any, but then I'm a fool that didn't pick up the full collection of DW when they moved from Albany. I think that anything that might have existed got folded into Steve's efforts for the stand alone Superworld game. Perhaps he has some tidbits tucked in a corner somewhere? SDLeary

Hmmm... I would have gone for Dad's Army myself. SDLeary

Yes, but somewhat relevant to the OP, as they are looking for a Western/Steampunk game. In the late 1880's adoption in Europe began, and the new propellants were reportedly 2-3 times as powerful. This site has had a lot of good looks at weapons that would fit this genre nicely. They have been looking at a lot of early automatic handguns, such as the c96 Mauser, early Lugers, and others; as well as mid 19thC combination weapons such as the 1861 LeMat. SDLeary

Assuming same velocity, yes. But Black Powder was lower in energy compared to Smokeless. Many tests of the time show bullets that used Smokeless Powder propelled to a higher velocity. In fact the difference was great enough at the chamber that many rifles had to be revised to handle smokeless. SDLeary

I thought remembered something about an actual book, and there it is. SDLeary

Greeks tended to use a spear that was roughly 8ft in length called a Dory. It is believed that it was held in a single hand with the shield in the off hand. The Sarissa (pike) didn't come into play really until the Macedonians begin to dominate. The Sarissa is believed to be double or more the length of the Dory, thus no Aspis (hoplite shield) as it couldn't be held effectively. The Macedonians used something smaller that would approximate an RQ3 target shield. Thus, the Greeks before the Macedonians were not much different from the Shield Wall of the Late Imperial and Early Medieval periods; though the Greeks had a bit more/better armor early on, at least in the front ranks. Mobility was probably a thing early on, but it faded as the Greeks adopted the Macedonian tactics... but you do have to be able to actually reach your opponent with the pointy end of your spear. If your spear is shorter, then you can't do that. The Roman Manipular formations were certainly more mobile, but more importantly more elemental. The possibility of one line holding you firm at the front while the second line flanks you, with a third in reserve was simply more than the Macedonians could handle. Especially as the front line and the flanking line were lobbing Pila at you, and stripping away shields and opening things up for the reserve archers. More of your body is exposed than you think. In order to get a good thrust with decent reach, you have to rotate around your central axis, thus drawing your shield back onto your body. You end up exposing about a quarter to third of your right torso and all your arm in the endeavor. Better than flat shields, but it was still a good thing that they were wearing armor. And for real power, I think that you would actually have to take a step with your right foot, exposing your leg too. SDLeary

I do believe there was something here (or perhaps it was G+) in the past that stated that once these titles sold through, that they would be done. The fact that they are available via POD is a refreshing bit of news. SDLeary

OK! New information! A bit contrary to what I remember coming before, but OK. Now, my question still stands. If we want to use BRP outside of the core of Chaosium (Glorantha and Lovecraftian Horror), how is the Company going to assist its fans? SDLeary