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daskindt

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About daskindt

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  • RPG Biography
    RuneQuest, Hero Wars, HeroQuest, World of Darkness, GURPS
  • Current games
    BattleTech
    RuneQuest: Glorantha
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    Seattle
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    I'm not a robot

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  1. We used point buy for our new campaign. I hate random character generation. I ended up giving each player 98 points to buy their characteristics. I used the 92+3 method as a baseline, but I also charged a little extra for stats approaching max, so I gave the 3 extra points to account for that altered cost. For the 3D6 stats, they paid 1 point per point in a stat up to 15. They paid 2 points for each point from 16-18. So 16/17/18 cost 17/19/21 points. For the 2D6+6 stats, they paid 1 point per point in a stat up to 16. They paid 2 points for each point from 17-18. So 17/18 cost 18/20 points. Modifiers from Runes and/or Homelands came after. We ended up with very similar characteristics as the pregen characters in the book. Most of the pregens are within a point or two of the point buy system we used. They was some min/max-ing, but not an excessive amount. I’m sure part of that was all the players are new to RuneQuest and Glorantha. The Skill Modifiers certainly contribute to point thresholds and some points of attributes being more valuable than others. I’d prefer a system much more like RQ3 where each point can help or hurt the modifier.
  2. daskindt

    Crowdsourced Old Characters and 1610s Family History

    Your list was a great starting point. Here’s the timeline I’m working on specifically for my upcoming Red Cow campaign. I’m ignoring many events from the official Family History and trying to work in more localized events. When dealing with big events, the Coming Storm provides some nice details for how the Red Cow were involved. Coming Storm / Eleven Lights Family History Notes Your History 1618-Present Day 1617–Silk Breeches Feud 1616– 1615–Tormakt’s Farm Massacre Parent’s History 1614–Broodi stops the Red Cow Tribute / Telmori clash at Pine Stand 1613–Kallyr’s Rebellion—Garralor Hendriksson keeps the Cinsina out of the rebellion 1611–Bloody Sword Tribute Raids/Black Paws wife killed—Lunar government raises taxes and bans the worship of Orlanth 1607–Wolf Hunt 1606–Torkan’s Vale massacre—Telmori slaughter the Maboder Tribe—Black Moon Massacre 1605–Farandar avenges Eoric’s Stead 1602–Orkarl leads Red Cow against Lunars (Runegate/Caroman/Boldhome) Grand Parent’s History 1601–Grandparents Retire If Still Alive 1597-Adventurer Born By This Year 1596–Burning of Eoric’s Stead ????—Ferry Feud—Aid the Sazdorf Trolls 1582–Battle of Grizzly Peak—Led by Orkarl 1575-79–Kangharl Moon-Hater led the Cinsina to fight in Tarsh 1575-Parents Born By This Year 1574-1577–Gannara the Lowfire fails to weave peace with the Dinacoli—Green Ale Feud 1573-Tarkalor’s War—Daylanor leads Red Cow to aid in defeat of the Kitori ????—Orkarl’s Bull Riders defeat the Emerald Sword Raid 1563–Jarosar Hothead’s Road—Feud with the Dolutha 1554-Grandparents Born By This Year
  3. daskindt

    So many errors and contradictions

    I still can’t figure out if Crits ignore armor and do max special damage or if they ignore armor and just do rolled special damage.
  4. daskindt

    Elmal Yelmalio thing

    Weird. It’s almost like Jeff ‘18 should carefully read some of the stuff that Jeff ‘09-‘12 wrote. S:KoH, pg. 254:
  5. daskindt

    more specific dates for 1602's Sartar campaign

    I feel like I just read some dates. Maybe in the history of the Cinsina and the Red Cow. I’ll look.
  6. daskindt

    Crowdsourced Old Characters and 1610s Family History

    1560 is listed in the GtG as the date that Tarkalor defeated the Kitori, but that doesn’t agree with some other accounts. It does match the end of Kitori taxation according to S:KoH. 1565-1569 is Jarosar’s rule. It is stated in KoS that the strife with the “Elmali” was still in full force as they refused to come to Jarosar’s aid. This would seem to indicate Tarkalor’s alliance/reconciliation with the Yelmalions must come later. 1569 is when Tarkalor becomes Prince of Sartar. Several accounts seem to indicate the war-campaign against the Kitori that culminated in the Yelmalions being granted Sun Dome County took place while Tarkalor was Prince of Sartar. He’s been feuding with the Kitori and Monrogh has had his Yelmalio revelation earlier, but Tarkalor does not turn his father’s enemy into his ally against the Kitori until his reign. 1579 is the year listed in several sources that Tarkalor officially awards Vaantar to the Yelmalio cult. Of course, these dates can all be called into question in other places. There’s a genealogical chart of the Sartar bloodline that alters the dates of rule for almost all the Princes of Sartar. S:KoH, pg. 222: (1520-1552) Saronil (1552-1557) Jarolar (1557-1561) Jarosar (1561-1582) Tarkalor Those dates for the rulers of Sartar would help with the timeframe for Tarkalor’s many deeds as Prince and King, but it’s contradicted in numerous other places, including the very next page in S:KoH, pg 223:
  7. daskindt

    Crowdsourced Old Characters and 1610s Family History

    More indications that the final defeat of the Kitori is later: Colymar History in GM Screen Adventure Book, pg. 10: Pg. 11: ‘77-‘82 seems to push the date back too far (later than even the dates for when the Red Cow chief aided Tarkalor), but the paragraph above seems to indicate that Kenstral aided Tarkalor against the Kitori after he became king of the Colymar as they were actively fighting against Tarkalor prior to that. This would coincide with the official designation of Vaantar as belonging to the Yelmalio cult in 1579, but significant action in the campaign definitely seems to occur much later than 1550 when he feud began. Maybe Jeff can clarify the dates a bit and specify some of the phases of the campaign against the Kitori.
  8. daskindt

    Crowdsourced Old Characters and 1610s Family History

    Love the information on the Kitori. In the interest of narrowing down the date though, the Coming Storm dates Tarkalor’s campaign later, based upon the history of the Red Cow chieftains. Coming Storm, pg. 49: Jarosar rules from 1565-1569. This seems to place the arrival of the Yelmalio cult in the Red Cow’s neighborhood after building the road, so definitely later than 1565, but likely before 1569 (not to suggest Monrogh’s vision was this late, just that the organized cult hadn’t reached the Red Cow). It also places the campaign against the Kitori after 1569 since it says Daylanor and the Red Cow joined King Tarkalor (does it really mean King and not Prince? I don’t think so, since Tarkalor is not King of Dragon Pass until 1575, after Daylanor is no longer chief of the Red Cow). If these dates are correct, the actual campaign against the Kitori would have to fall sometime between 1569 and 1573. Which seems to conflict quite a bit. Maybe King Tarkalor doesn’t mean he was ruling Sartar at the time, just acknowledging that the history is talking about the future King and not another Tarkalor. Still, if Daylanor was chief and lead the Red Cow on the campaign, it would need to fall after 1563. The text really seems to apply that it was entirely after Jarosar‘s rule though, which ended in 1569.
  9. daskindt

    Elmal Yelmalio thing

    Before diving into the Making Gods essay, I want to make a few points that I think are relevant to discussing the essay in the context of the emerging mythology of Glorantha. These are things that seem important to me as a consumer of the Glorantha myths, primarily through RuneQuest, then Hero Wars, then HeroQuest, and now back to RuneQuest: Glorantha. I am by no means an expert and I have not had a hand behind the scenes as a contributor in the creation of these stories. I’m trying to explain why I’m confused by some of the choices made based upon my readings as a consumer of the Glorantha stories. 1) King of Sartar, first published in 1992, is definitely one of the critical sources I’ve gone back to again and again to try and better understand the Elmal vs Yelmalio debate. As far as I’m aware (and I could certainly be mistaken), King of Sartar was the first time information about Elmal was officially published. Prior to that, there was no Elmal officially recognized in the materials available on Glorantha, or at the very least there was nothing about Elmal in RuneQuest. Only Yelmalio. So this is probably one of the most important documents contextually for the current controversy. But I think it’s important to recognize it was published in 1992 before Elmal had any official presence in the myths of Glorantha and that significant work has be done over the next 26 years to elaborate and clarify the role of Elmal in Glorantha. King of Sartar is a world document. It is most assuredly not a game or systems document. But it has to grapple with how Glorantha is/was portrayed in game systems. RuneQuest at the time of its publishing. Later, it had to be in dialog with Hero Wars and HeroQuest. In light of that, my impression is that part of the goal of the Making Gods essay was to officially include the Elmal mythology into the world of Glorantha while at the same time limiting it’s impact upon the published version of the myths and stories in RuneQuest. Why haven’t we heard of Elmal? Why doesn’t anyone worship Elmal in the published RuneQuest sourcebooks? How can the Orlanthi have all these important myths about Elmal but we only have Yelmalio in RuneQuest? How did Monrogh discover Yelmalio while he was actively being worshipped in Sun Dome County in Prax and other places? It’s my impression that the Making Gods essay is an attempt to resolve those concerns while still introducing a significant new deity and collection of myths to Glorantha. It’s a bit of Greg trying to have it both ways. Elmal suddenly exists (and has always existed retroactively), but his newly established presence doesn’t require any actual changes to published RuneQuest sourcebooks because his cult has been fully subsumed into Yelmalio by the early 1600s. (Although it was obviously massively controversial in relation to the Sun County supplement also published in ‘92.) I’d be happy to be better illuminated on the topic however. 2) Making Gods is an essay within Jalk’s Book which is introduced in a metatextual note from Greg Stafford as a framing device. This is a popular convention in fantasy documents that places the author into the narrative as if analyzing real documents from this fictional world. The character of “Greg” actually calls the accuracy of the essay into question in the introduction to Jalk’s Book. King of Sartar, pg. 167 (emphasis mine): This immediately casts the Making Gods essay, the first essay in the book following this introduction, as “wild speculations” and it should be read and evaluated against other sources and comments in this light. As a reader, I’m now forewarned that the narrators/writers of the various essays may very well be unreliable. In world documents should always be read with awareness of the reliability of the narrator/storyteller, but Greg has drawn extra attention to that point when setting up the coming essays. And notably, the version of the account in Making Gods frequently differs from other accounts in other sources. 3) Making Gods does not specify a lot of details. When was this document composed? Who was Hilliam Wants West? When and how did the Eyetooth clan aquire the antesmia statue? What exactly is the antesmia statue? Who was their tribal king? Why were they rebelling? Why were the Elmali enemies of Tarkalor’s father? When did this occur? How was Monrogh connected to them? When exactly did Monrogh have his Peculiar vision? Was the Peculiar vision at his initiation the same as his quest that brought back Yelmalio? Or was the Peculiar vision prophetic and his actual quest took place later? The verifiable truth of these events are all in doubt considering Greg’s warning and the lack of details in Hilliam Wants West’s account. Why for example does HWW not know some fundamental details about when the events actually took place? King of Sartar, pg. 169 This seems like an event that should have a fairly defined date that a scribe would be able to record if they were a contemporary of Tarkalor and Monrogh, but none of the events have concrete dates. Is the event referenced from the previous paragraph when the Eyetooth clan began to worship the statue or the event(s) described later in the paragraph when Tarkalor uses the rebelling Elmali against his Kitori enemies? The scribe doesn’t even know if Prince Saronil was alive or dead when the event, whichever event it was, occurred. He describes the event in broad strokes and then doubles back to give some specific details on Monrogh. For example, he started by talking about the Elmali and then by the end of a paragraph he’s suddenly talking about Yelmalio who he had not previously mentioned. So when he goes back to discuss Monrogh and Yelmalio, we don’t really know when the various aspects of Monrogh’s vision and accomplishments took place. King of Sartar, pg. 169 Why exactly again are the Elmali the enemies of his father? When did Tarkalor’s feud take place? Previously HWW doesn’t even know if Saronil was alive or dead during the event. Most accounts place Saronil’s death in 1550 (although the genealogy chart on pg. 32 places his death in 1552). This certainly seems like it can be interpreted as the conflict was resolved by giving the disgruntled Elmali their own homeland after they performed a service for Tarkalor. The emphasis here is on how Tarkalor turned a previous enemy and liability into an asset to solve two problems. To me, this puts the end of strife on Tarkalor’s clever action not upon the revelation of Monrogh. Without Tarkalor’s action, Monrogh’s Yelmalio revelation would have continued to cause strife in Sartar. Getting into the specifics of Monrogh: What truth was Monrogh actually seeking? He got an answer, but the real meaning of his answer can change a lot depending on what the question was. Was he seeking a new truth of the Sun God? Or was he searching for a Sun god that would allow him to sway and convince the Elmali to fully abandon their traditional ways? King of Sartar, pg. 169 This actually doesn’t say anything about Elmal being a mask of Yelmalio. It indicates Monrogh brought a deity known among the elves and introduced him among humans. Sure this could be interpreted as Elmal is a mask of Yelmalio, and some other references point to that. But many other subsequent references indicate that it’s a new god “neither Yelm or Elmal.” This certainly doesn’t seem to give a definitive answer, even if we assume the scribe is reliable. 4) One thing this account does specify is that Yelmalio’s cult replaced Elmal’s cult. In this version of the story, it seems as if Yelmalio completely replaces Elmal as “the rest” of his worshipers joined the new cult. Perhaps it merely refers to Sartar and the Quivini tribes though. Again, the scribe is not entirely specific. In terms of how this impacts gaming in Glorantha with Runequest, this makes sense historically in that it explains why there are no Elmali in RuneQuest supplements, but this interpretation doesn’t hold when we consider other documents released following King of Sartar. Further, the cult spreads, with the assistance of the Lunar empire who imports it into Tarsh. This detail seems to imply that Yelmalio moved to Tarsh quite late, definitely after 1550, but since it seems to imply Tarkalor solved the conflict before the Lunars began to spread the new cult, this would place the spread of Yelmalio in Tarsh in 1579, or later, when Vaantar was officially awarded to the Yelmalio cult. It seems like this detail differs from other accounts I’ve seen folks providing indicating Yelmalio was a presence in Tarsh significantly earlier than that, but again I’m unclear. King of Sartar, pg. 169 This seems to indicate that the Lunars introduced the Yelmalio cult to Tarsh, but the timeline here again doesn’t seem to match up with the later sources about how Yelmalio was worshipped and when his worship came to Tarsh. Again, differing accounts make for a more complex and interesting fictional world, but it undermines the authority and accuracy of any one particular account. In summary, Making Gods is a fascinating document as an in world document covering one perspective on a controversial topic, but it raises far more questions than it answers. It seems impossible to draw any answers from the document without reading it in dialog with many other documents, both in world and out, that discuss Elmal and Yelmalio. When examined against other documents, there are significant differences that make me reluctant to invest too much authority in this one single document.
  10. daskindt

    Elmal Yelmalio thing

    The relationship didn’t sour. It started sour. The Yelmalio revelation was causing strife in Tarsh and Sartar. The Elmal-Yelmalions were in revolt and were enemies of Tarkalor’s father and betrayed Jarosar Jarosil. Tarkalor saw a way to use his father’s enemies to defeat the Kitori. He awarded them Vaantar and moved them out of Sartar to bring an end to the conflict they were causing with the traditional Elmali. It doesn’t make sense for Tarkalor to construct them a temple in Boldhome when he’s trying to end the conflict with the traditional Elmali. Honoring them in the heart of Sartar would have made things worse. This is based on published documents though. Again, if Jeff is retconning the published sources there’s really no point in arguing because he can change anything that conflicts with the new version of events.
  11. daskindt

    Elmal Yelmalio thing

    The problem is that there’s no evidence in the materials published in the last couple decades that this would have occurred and lots of evidence that it wouldn’t have occurred. Ian already provided numerous page references to indicate that in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes there is no mention of a Yelmalio temple in Boldhome and direct reference to an Elmal temple. Further, there is evidence all over the place that the Sartarties and Yelmalions do not get along or trust each other. Sun County swore an oath to Tarkalor and have not renewed that oath with any Prince of Sartar since. King of Sartar, Storm Tribe, Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, Sartar Companion, the Coming Storm, and other sources all emphasize the hostility between the cults of Elmal and Yelmalio. However, I’m just going to focus on some of the references in Wyrm’s Footnotes, which are written primarily from a perspective friendly to the Yelmalio cult. Here’s a few references from Wyrm’s Footnotes #15: Pg. 35: These are the “friendly” members of the Yelmalio cult that once swore an oath to Tarkalor. They don’t sound particularly well disposed toward their Orlanthi neighbors. They don’t sound likely to set up camp in Boldhome rather than remove themselves from Orlanthi communities to live under their own rule in Sun County. Pg. 37: Terrible strife amongst the tribes of Sartar due to the Yelmalio cult. This doesn’t sound like the Sartarites welcomed the Yelmalio cult into their society and reinforces the notion that Tarkalor resolved much of the tension by granting Vaantar to the Yelmalio cult (and taking it away from the Elmali) in order to get them out of Sartar. Pg. 38: The Yelmalion pikemen of Vaantar remained neutral in the Boldhome Campaign. One would think if they had a temple IN Boldhome, they would have been forced to take a side one way or the other, but curiously no mention of any organized Yelmalio cult presence in Boldhome. Pg. 41: Here’s the rivalry between Yelmalio and Elmal in Tarsh. The Golden Spearman was a son of Emperor Yelm and an enemy of Orlanth. Tarkalor ends the strife by giving the disgruntled Elmali their own lands to make their own rules. No mention of constructing a temple in Boldhome to honor the Yelmalio cult. Instead, they resolved the strife by getting the new cult out of contact with the rest of the tribes of Sartar. Again, the revelation is that Yelmalio is neither Yelm nor Elmal. Even in Tarsh though, Elmal was originally worshipped and the Elmali at Ironspike kept faith in Elmal. Pg. 75: This specifically calls out one temple-town in Dragon Pass—clearly Vaantar. One in Prax. Two in Lunar Tarsh. No mention of a temple in Boldhome amongst the 15 extant during the Hero Wars. This is quite a different view than the one being presented in RuneQuest: Glorantha that Yelmalio is influential everywhere in Dragon Pass and Elmal is merely a mask of Yelmalio with a carbon copy cult. These are just references in the very pro-Yelmalio Wyrm’s Footnotes #15. But they demonstrate the significant hostility between the cult of Yelmalio and traditional Orlanthi culture, especially the Elmal cult. Again, Ian provided great references from the various HeroQuest sources on Elmal and Yelmalio with the specifics about the lack of a Boldhome Yelmalio temple. Clearly, we can’t change what Jeff is writing for the upcoming RuneQuest: Glorantha materials, but they are obviously deviating from the materials that have been published in the last couple decades. But there are increasingly two different Gloranthas emerging on this point: 1) HeroQuest Glorantha where both Elmal and Yelmalio exist and there is a rich Elmal mythology and culture which includes a hostile schism between the cults, and 2) RuneQuest Glorantha where only Yelmalio exists in a meaningful way and Elmal is a quaint name of a sub-cult of Yelmalio that is functionally identical whose contrary myths are being forgotton or ignored.
  12. daskindt

    Elmal Yelmalio thing

    I was disappointed and worried before, but it has only gotten worse. The worst part though has been to see people being corrected, having their document based arguments dismissed, and told they’re wrong based upon sources that haven’t yet been published, when those “new” sources clearly contradict the existing material. There’s been some serious gaslighting occurring in this and other social media forums on this topic. This started for me with me thinking I didn’t remember the stories and myths of Elmal very well, but as I’ve reviewed previous sources and read new sources it’s clear that I remembered much better than I thought. There is a rich and twenty-plus year history of Elmal that is very clearly being discarded and retconned to reassert Yelmalio as they only sun cult of relevance in Dragon Pass (and perhaps much more of Glorantha for all we know at this point). I guess I shouldn’t be too disappointed since Elmal was a retcon in the first place (and many folks didn’t appreciate him being introduced/invented), but it seemed like Greg and Jeff (along with countless other contributors) had fully committed to Elmal’s presence as a part of Glorantha. The new direction on Elmal and Yelmalio for RuneQuest: Glorantha seems like an extremely clumsy retcon to remove Elmal and smooth over the Yelmalio cult. I’m incredibly impressed with the quality of Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes and related projects. The new art and visuals for RuneQuest are brilliant. But my Glorantha certainly won’t be following the Yelmalio retcon in the new edition and it makes me less interested and less excited about collecting the new books being published.
  13. daskindt

    Elmal Yelmalio thing

    Yeah. I guess that’s why I’ve been so disappointed with how the new RQG materials have treated Elmal. There’s so much excellent material that has come out in the past couple of decades on Elmal that it’s a shame to see it handled so poorly in the new material. Storm Tribe blew my mind when it was released as a coherent book of complex cults for a fictional setting and Elmal was one of the absolute stars. There’s clearly an evolution from there to Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, but that evolution is excellent and complex. Sartar: KoH is so, so good. I just don’t understand why RQG is casting that aside. I just can’t get behind the viewpoint of “And it came to pass that Monrogh was right and everyone lived happily ever after in Yelmalio’s cold light.”
  14. daskindt

    Elmal Yelmalio thing

    I get that GoG is a specific format with a limited scope. I just think it is currently going way, way, way overboard in reducing the differences between Elmal and Yelmalio. The worst part is probably completely dropping Elmal from the list of Orlanthi deities while including Yelmalio. I’m not expecting a full cult write up (although it would be nice), but the idea that the Elmal cult write up would basically resemble the Yelmalio cult seems absurd based upon the previously published materials. However weak the organized Elmal cult may currently be amongst the Orlanthi in Sartar and Dragon Pass, there’s absolutely no indication that they’ve ceased to revere Elmal as the Sun amongst their culture. His holy days are still part of the Orlanthi sacred calendar. He’s still prominently featured in many of their most important myths. Yelmalio is still viewed as a foreign god and his worshippers have betrayed Elmal. Elmal still has a huge cultural presence within the Sartar materials and within Heortling mythology. The GoG entry makes it sound like Sartar is the only place where Elmal is given any attention of any kind, rather than being the center of the conflict between the two cults.
  15. daskindt

    Elmal Yelmalio thing

    The GenCon Preview Edition of RuneQuest: Gods of Glorantha doesn’t help with the exact dates or the details of Monrogh’s vision and actions, but it does shove the Elmal/Yelmalio distinction off to the side in favor of Yelmalio’s cult. This account greatly simplifies the story and completely subsumes Elmal’s history and mythology as well as the complexities of Tarkalor’s machinations and political games with the Yelmalio cult. Elmal is given two more paragraphs at the very end of Yelmalio’s entry under MISCELLANEOUS NOTES. Not sure what happened to Elmal’s Fire rune or the many differences in the manner in which he is worshipped. Nor is it clear to me still why Yelmalio would completely displace Elmal outside Sartar. At the very least, Elmal is a Heortling sun god and I would expect his cult would continue to show up among Heortling Orlanthi, wherever they are. We have many documents that go to great lengths to describe the mythology and cultural relevance of Elmal to the Orlanthi, beyond direct worship through his cult, so I’m not sure how Yelmalio’s cult (and Yelm’s for that matter) have subsumed Elmal. What’s even more troubling is that Elmal is not even given a mention as part of the Orlanthi pantheon, the GODS OF STORM, even though similar lists in the Book of Heortling Mythology, King of Sartar, the Guide to Glorantha, the Glorantha Sourcebook, and more all make mention of Elmal’s importance as the Orlanthi Sun god. Somehow, Yelmalio is included in the list though: Compare that with: King of Sartar The Book of Heortling Mythology Also in the ENEMY GODS OF ORLANTH list in BoHM: I really hope that significant revisions to the Gods of Glorantha keep a place for Elmal, at the very least list Elmal as the Orlanthi God of the Sun, and the entire Elmal vs Yelmalio struggle in RQG. My Glorantha will certainly vary to better include the complexities of this thread and the many existing sources should the new edition continue to subsume Elmal out of existence.
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