Grievous

That is very cool. I wonder how that worked for tribes that were more properly complying with the Lunars and/or had more Lunarized kings during the Occupation. The Ordeal group could become rebels (that would no doubt continue luring young men into their midst), but if that didn't happen, how might that look? The tribe would have to create an alternative training group though, but with Orlanth out of the question, what form would they take?

The Doors - When The Music's Over (Live At The Bowl '68) This was my immediate instinctual thought as an answer to this! I mean, Jim Morrison, but also don't forget that it's a whole band...

That's actually a little wrong according to the info from the Guide. The Dara Happans as Babylonian/Sumerian/Persian and Orlanthi as north European are old tropes that don't really hold. The Pelorians are somewhat lighter skinned with brown/blue eyes. The Orlanthi add in more hair and eye color variety and slightly darker skin basically - however with blondes rare and blue eyes apparently not present much at all. I think the point re: OP is that while there is this blonde and lighter skin tone trend in the Pelorians, it's not a huge difference and not entirely unknown in Dragon Pass, so there isn't a readily apparent, blatantly obvious distinction between the two ethnic types so that isn't going to be the primary factor of directed prejudice. Cultic affiliation would be that (consider that many within your kin group would have joined the Seven Mothers cult as well). Language too, certainly (which is relevant to the question re: Tarshites). That said, I think there is room for discrimination on these lines (if you want to introduce that theme to your game) towards the blonde, blue eyed Pelorian types which do stand out and might be seen as representative of the Pelorian ruling class.

That's very well put. I would also very much like to point out how much like roleplaying it is, so it opens into a meta-narrative tool (in fact, both in fiction as the experimental heroquesting of heroes and out of fiction as a narrative element that matches the act that's responsible for its creation).

Hmm. The term breeding program gets thrown around a lot in these discussions around Jar-eel and I appreciate the Dune vibes, but what do we know about the components of this breeding scheme? I mean, the obvious answer is to pack as much of Red Emperor lineages into the family tree, but that isn't much of a program as standard operating procedure? TakenEgi is Hon-eel's father and Jar-eel's is Reclusus.

As I'm made of money, I just ordered the premium. Great stuff!

My sense of it is that there was a mistake in the initial files (which was noted in the errate/errors threads at the time), which named Korlmhy as the king (making S:KoH out of wonk). When this was noted, I think the situation was remedied in a way that it can be interpreted in multiple ways (the myriad ways that would make sense to me which I had some difficulty parsing, hence my post necroing the thread) to accommodate a variety of potential campaign solutions. Whether that was a good remedy is something we can debate once we settle the Elmal-Yelmalio discussion. 😄 Anyway, that's my speculation. I think some folks may still have the old uncorrected pdf's floating around (I do actually, but the printed versions seem fine), which may add to the confusion around the issue.

Ok, but none of these theories or discussion seem to really account for Kangharl and Korlmhy being two different people, but I guess we can assume Kangharl precedes Korlmhy as tribal king and general troublemaker. Of course, that doesn't jive at all with S:KoH and with the idea of keeping that at least a little bit canonical I'm still stumped on how to incorporate Korlmhy so that the notes and lineage charts make sense. 🤷‍♂️ Anyway thanks for your musings on the subject!

Ok, so in describing Leika's ascension on FB (in July) Jeff references the situation with the two tribal kings of Colymar from 1615-1625. So, Korlmhy overthrows Leika with Lunar military aid. Kangharl is a lunar hostage. Of course, in S:KoH it seems Kangharl was this Korlmhy, so to speak. I've tried to wrack my brain and resolve what all this points at, but I just don't get it. Your insight or speculation would be appreciated.

They are probably War Clans and likely rent out their Humakti as mercenaries too, though. So the clans make their "investments" work for them.

The current view seems to have Sartar looking pretty rich, however. Certainly not an empire, though. So, maybe not for the country bumpkins (which are not necessarily the most likely to pick up Lunar/Yelmic influence either), but there is wealth to be had. This could suggest that this foreign trade blossomed among those who maybe felt left out. Also, the Dinacoli spring to mind. Trying to square the circle about everything that's been said about them in the past is a bit difficult, so my mind is still trying to figure them out in relation to everything else (and within the Yelmalio/Elmal complex). If Tarsh is the conduit for the Yelmic current (which makes sense), then they'd (and/or perhaps parts of them that moved south - I think the Lorthing have at some point been described thus, I believe) also possibly fit in with this trend. Maybe a development that occurred after the dreadful Brangbane business. They did join Sartar only after Grizzly Peak though (which is where Monrogh died). Later on, they're known to be rich as well, so there's that. I dunno, just riffing now!

How about the somewhat unclear Yelmic influence which spread before the whole Yelmalion affair/crisis? I seem to recall that had something to do with plowing, but I've wondered about whether this was tied into some form of Yelmic worship as well.

I love, love, loooove this visualization of Glorantha, esp. the Vingkotlings which simply blow me away. Outstanding.

They like it hot.

And now I can. Ordered.

I think it's interesting that we used to have lots of boxed sets (back when I got into the hobby anyway) and then they totally went out of fashion, but they've been creeping back. I don't really have a strong preference, but I guess a box is a nice thing to put stuff in (I mean that's literally what boxes are for beside all the feline functionality) that wouldn't really work that well as add-ons with books.

I would think that anyone who gets elected into the ring also becomes a thane, or probably in most cases already was one. Though that said the current description kind of leaves it open if priests for example are thanes, or just "effectively Thanes" (ie. similarly supported), ie. whether a Thane is a purely martial role or not (yes, it was originally that, but does is still retain that role has it become a more general noble rank). Edit - Hmm, I guess on a second reading of Jeff's excerpts, priests are not necessarily thanes (unless they are martial priests), so there is an idea of a more "noble" rank that's larger in scope than thane. I wonder if this is then restricted to thanes and priests, or if it is a larger group. Then again, most every important person would probably be a priest, if not a thane. Then I guess in some cases we'd have children of chieftains/kings to consider too, but I guess their "nobility" sort of emanates from that of their parent(s). I also assume that means weaponthane as a term is out, superceded by "vanilla" thane.

We discussed that greave thing on Facebook briefly. I and a few others noted that when using a shield to fight, you really only need the left leg covered (and it better be covered as it is a major target IME). That's valid while still using the shield - the situation might change once you lose the shield (in which case at least I would prefer to switch to a right leg forward stance and then armor on both legs would be really nice). But yeah, greaves on only the left leg were also definitely also a thing historically, but their utility can be attested to even today by anyone who's done any fighting with shields. Jeff pointed out though that she had the greave on one leg only because she ran out of time while looting, so there's that.

Oh wow, had missed Heler in Facebook. Very cool. This book is... well, it's going to go into RPG history/hall of fame.

Hmm, I've also thought about how logical it would be for there to be Western styles of martial arts. It really makes sense that certain ways of moving and acting with the human body would be more attuned to the ways of Malkion, and that most humans move in ways that are out of sync with this original, more powerful way of moving (also probably doing harm to themselves in a sort of karmic or even just health based manner). But someone trained in the right arts... could put themselves in sync with these true principles and gain martial power, much like a sorcerer does with their mind. I can really imagine the Western martial arts master show off the techniques: "Once aligned with the True Principles, there can be no defense!" SMACK. Just something that I've thought about and see making sense. One thing I would not like to see though is that every corner of Glorantha should have their own totally developed martial arts in the vein of something like we see in the eastern arts. Yes, every place will have a martial tradition, but it's not always going to look like kungfu. Now, heh, I fully understand I just suggested putting something like that in the West myself, but ahhh that just makes sense to me as outlined above.

Thanks, I think that's a useful historical summary for us who weren't around to see it all unfold. There's two kinds of confusion around this whole issue: the "bad kind" and the "good kind". The bad confusion is basically angry people (men?) on the Internet. The what happened when and "why did they do this to me" ties into it, so your summary is good relief for this ailment. The good confusion is the web and weave of the mythology; Elmal, Yelmalio, Cold Suns... what's Elmal doing in Six Ages, Monrogh, etc. it's good confusion because it is interesting for those who enjoy deep dives into the setting. Though basically good, it can still be frustrating because it is so damned impenetrable at times.

Orngerin's clan is in the Cinsina (since 1613), though. Of course, this might actually change, too.

This (and also the Elmali Dolutha that are descended from them) is really the only thing still nagging me in this paradigm, but aside from not being able to square that circle, I'm liking what I'm seeing!

Yeah, but this core question really shouldn't be... that's my controversial opinion anyway!

omg omg (I just hope we won't be doing away with hexes)