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Leingod

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Everything posted by Leingod

  1. Leingod

    The Many and the One, or has there always been a Yelm?

    Mind explaining how? I'd be interested to know.
  2. Leingod

    Sartarite Greetings

    No, that's just part of a running in-joke among Yelmalians about how backward Elmali are.
  3. Leingod

    Sartarite Greetings

    Confusing this with the traditional Elmali "Oi!" is of course gravely offensive to both of them.
  4. Leingod

    The Many and the One, or has there always been a Yelm?

    You know, I was totally willing to believe that "Verapur" was just some alternate name for Nivorah I wasn't aware of until this was clarified.
  5. Leingod

    The Many and the One, or has there always been a Yelm?

    Shargash is considered one of the Many Suns because in "Elmal Guards the Sunpath" he is apparently one of the sun gods who tried to loot the sunpath after Yelm's death to take his Rune of power. They seem to apply the term "Little/Small Sun" to any sun god considered lesser or illegitimate compared to Yelm or whichever sun god they believe is the closest to being a proper successor. If you perform the ritual "Hyalor Tablet-Maker," you'll notice this bit from the second ambassador after turning away the first one: Prove him wrong with a display of Elmal's power, and he'll flee in fear, recognizing that the unjust Emperor has no power over Elmal. So it's apparently used as something of a pejorative label. There's also scattered reference to a "War of Many Suns," during which Small Suns like the Water Sun were slain. Kargzant is probably never mentioned because the Gamatae never appear in-game. The Hyalorings have already split into four separate groups that went in different directions (the northern ones are gone, though), with your own clan being one of the southernmost groups; the territory of the Gamatae is largely not on the map. I suspect that "Little Yelm" is both Yelmalio prior to losing his fire and Antirius, because the Hyalorings seem to treat Little Yelm as the successor sun god of the Dara Happans.
  6. Not really. Every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square.
  7. Huh. I guess that explains why the cult of Elmal explicitly connects the Teller of Lies that Elmal vanquished in "Elmal Guards the Stead" with Gbaji; when it tried to trick Elmal into betraying his core principles, even though the tactics changed, it was always ultimately targeting his pride in some way.
  8. But wouldn't Delecti still be the Devil, in that case? And what's more, I don't think he's ever presented the kind of individual threat to the world itself that the Devil is meant to.
  9. Spoilers, obviously. If you want to wait until the game comes out on your medium of choice to play it, you should probably stay away from this thread until then. I'm still essentially a Glorantha neophyte, so I don't really know how much of where the Six Ages lore adds to or contradicts/changes any of the stuff that is already known about the setting, something I'm nonetheless very interested in and would like to know what people more well-versed in this stuff (or who just have a cool idea) take away from the lore and mythology of the game. Since not everyone has had a chance to get it yet (I know a lot of people are waiting until it comes out for their medium of choice), so I thought that, as someone who does have the game and has played the crap out of it, I might make myself useful. To start with, I'd like to talk about the chief god of the Hyalorings and my personal favorite ever since I first played King of Dragon Pass, Elmal. As their chief god, they have a lot more legends and sayings and such about him than the Orlanthi later will in Dragon's Pass, so I think it'd be cool to talk about, starting with his Heroquest (or rather, "Ritual"), "Elmal Guards the Sunpath. Little Yelm is probably Yelmalio prior to losing his Fire (there's more evidence of this elsewhere, especially in "Nyalda's Bride Price"), and JonL suggested in the "Elmal Yelmalio thing" thread that Yonesh is Yavor, the warrior of the Fire Tribe who snuffed himself out to survive a battle with Umath (and made lightning darts from Umath's brains after he was killed), was torn apart by Orlanth so his bones could be made into weapons, and whose head was kept by him. I think the interesting thing here is that Elmal is depicted as an archetypal "Reluctant King," the good, virtuous man who dons the mantle of a ruler not because it is his birthright or the spoils of conquest, but because he must. It fits the Hyalorings, who take a very dim view of kings and kingship (to the extent that they don't have kings themselves) but nonetheless love Elmal as the king of gods. Elmal's kingship is justified by his reluctance, which is what sets him apart from the Pretender Suns who try to take the mantle of the sun out of greed and constantly try to equate Elmal with themselves by accusing him of believing he is the sun like they do. Elmal has a lot more of a family among the Hyalorings (and presumably the Samnali, i.e. the "Wheels" to the Hyalorings' "Riders"). After the death of Yelm, he eventually earns the hand of Nyalda (i.e. Ernalda) in "Nyalda's Bride Price," because he offers what none of the other suitors are willing to offer her (Freedom) and proves his strength by beating said suitors into line. Nyalda here is a former concubine of Yelm, BTW. Prior to Nyalda, though, Elmal is married to the goddess Nivorah, who is of course the goddess of the city of Nivorah that the Hyalorings and Samnali both come from. Presumably, that's who most of his children were mothered by. The named children who are probably Elmal's children with Nivorah include Osara (basically an Elmali version of Vinga), Verlaro, and Samnal. The one who is definitely Elmal's son with Nivorah is... Reladivus. Yeah, in "Taming the River," it is outright stated that Reladivus (whom the Dara Happans now consider a son of Yelm) is the son of Elmal and Nivorah. How did they eventually confuse Yelm's grandson with his son? My guess is that the answer is found in "Hyalor Tablet-Maker": I guess Manarlavus might actually have been as good as his word, at least as far as his subjects were concerned. And to fill the genealogical gap that removing Elmal as the emperor's son created, they simply replaced him with Reladivus. Unless this is just more of that thing where Vinga is considered both an aspect of Orlanth and his daughter by people and neither of these is incorrect.
  10. Leingod

    The Lore of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind

    They probably are the Uncolings, before they had that name; I found them in the northwest, which is about as close to where they range in the Third Age as is possible with the encroachment of the Glacier. Though I'll note that I'm not sure if the time of the game should be called the heyday of the Vingkotlings. After all, the presence of the Forosilvuli means that Vingkot is already dead and has been for some time, and at the same time we're well before the time of the likes of Heort. This also, BTW, kind of gives lie to the later Orlanthi myths of the tribes being founded by Vingkot's sons and daughters, with only the Star Tribes being founded by "daughters of Vingkot's sons." In fact, in one event your Riders will even comment on it: And the Hyalorings would know, because this is exactly how it works among themselves. Beren's birth is accompanied by many miraculous signs of his closeness to Elmal, and he is "directly descended" from Elmal through the line of Verlaro, and there is a counterpart to Beren among the Wheels (who presumably descends from Elmal through Samnal). Later on, he Heroforms into Elmal several times, such as when he is attacked and ritually blinded by Wheels; if you take him to the Rams for healing, Redalda convinces a priestess of Chalana Arroy to heal him and she'll Heroform into the goddess to cure Beren's blindness, which Redalda's father will actually construe as the same event recorded in "Chalana Arroy Heals the Scars." Another note is on Time. Technically it hasn't begun yet, but that applies more to God than Man. People feel the flow of time as more or less linear in Ride Like the Wind, but time isn't universal yet, especially once the divine becomes involved. You can be out exploring and suddenly you're at the Hill of Gold, watching a fight that has yet to occur and yet is eternally happening. You receive a warning from Buserian telling you that the Rebel is going to try to murder Yelm, many generations after it's already happened. And so on. Perhaps because of this, the Hyalorings do not measure time in numbered years. Many times, they speak of named generations the way we might talk about "periods" or "ages" in time. For example: There was also one I forgot to write down called something like the "Burning Generation" or something where the leaders were exposed as fools (it was brought up as an insult for some decision I'd made). Similarly, years are only numbered and recorded in terms of how long a particular leader has ruled. So, the Hyalorings experience time linearly, but don't seem to feel any need to record it in terms of anything universal, keeping most measurements of time as something that records their own personal experiences. Which is surprising for former Dara Happans, who go to great lengths to act like they know exactly when and for how long everything of any importance happened.
  11. I think the Second Age is intentionally made out to be very vague and half-forgotten; it's even the only Age where there isn't really a consensus for where it starts and ends. The Guide to Glorantha, for example, says that suggested end-points are 920 (when the Boat Planet disappeared and the Closing began), 940 (when Jrustela was lost), 970 (when the Closing was completed), 1042 (when the EWF was overthrown), 1049 (when Seshnela sank), and 1120 (the Dragonkill War). The end of the Second Age isn't marked by any one, single mega-event that defines the whole thing, but a series of big, regional catastrophes strung together in a relatively short timespan as great empires fall like dominos. In that way, the Second Age is probably the most historical of the Ages of Glorantha (prior to the 4th, I suppose), and it might intentionally mirror the Late Bronze Age Collapse of ~1200-1100 BC, during which a whole slew of once-powerful cultures collapsed for reasons that are still up for debate but probably encompass a whole range of factors from fundamental changes in warfare to shifts in the Earth's climate. Perhaps the identity of the Devil and the Hero of the Second Age is a lost secret, known only to the likes of Argrath. After all, Argrath was the first to make the claim of the Devil reappearing every 600 years; the normal people of Glorantha speak of "Ages" the same way we talk about them, as easy ways to break up history into more digestible chunks.
  12. Leingod

    The Lore of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind

    I finally managed to get around to visiting all the Ram kingdoms to the south, as well as the Northern Wheels. The Northern Wheels will actually send raiding parties at you, though they aren't substantially harder to fend off than any other Wheel clan, presumably due to the distance they have to travel. Also, someone on your clan circle will say during some event with them, "These Wheels established a kingdom several generations ago, under the canny leadership of Naztavlo the Tall." Your clan's Beren, I'll note, is also called "the Tall" by his fellow Riders. “Certain Orlanthi worship a tiger god named Yiskin or Yenkin or some such.” - Someone on your clan circle. Consulting The Book of Heortling Mythology tells me that the Forosilvuli of Holay are one of the two Star Tribes, formed from the marriage of the Star Captain Forosil Ferocious to a daughter of Vingkot's son. The fact that the Star Husbands specifically needed to protect these people from Dara Happans explains why they have even greater enmity against the Fire Tribe than normal. These would be the tribe of "great warriors and magicians" founded by the marriage of Vestene Summer to Goralf Brown who lived in southern Aggar. I guess they might have adopted the worship of Odayla early on? The tribe of Penene Winter and Kastwall Five who lived in Aggar. If you get caught by said tax collectors, they'll try to rob you of everything you own, including taking some of your explorers away to sell as slaves. The Infithtelli of northern Tarsh were founded by Infithe Winter and Porscriptor the Cannibal. One of your clansmen will actually reference that epithet: "The founding king of the Infithtelli was called a cannibal. But then so was Stelfor Westclan, who merely was an implacable ruler." I don't know what the name "Kestaytelli" might reference; the only things I can find that may be related to it are Kesta, a minor goddess in Ernalda's retinue who taught Ivarne (and thus Heort) how to store and preserve food, and Kestang, one of the heroic Vulture Campers who taught them how to fight trolls. Apparently they'll reward you if you regale them with a good story of beating said Rams, but they've always been indifferent for me. I even found a new people who I had never encountered before: Oh, and there's this event chain where this new spirit society, called the Antler Society, can be formed in your clan who provide some useful benefits during several events. I got the chance to ask them about the Antler shamans, and the answer surprised me. And wouldn't you know, I typed "antler" in the wiki to see what I would get and it turns out there's a certain enemy you face if you pick "Rivalry between warlords" as the new quest for Beren and Redalda to undertake after getting married at the end of the game?
  13. Leingod

    The Lore of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind

    No, though there are two separate instances that seem to foreshadow the Hill of Gold, most notably when you find it playing out before it has technically occurred (as there is no separation of Time and Godtime, so stuff like that just kind of happens). You can even help Yelmalio (though his name isn't given as such), and in return he'll promise you his aid when you need it the most (presumably in the sequel, which takes place in the Greater Darkness). I should note, BTW, that doing this can anger your clan if the Dara Happans are your clan's ancestral enemies, which seems to lend further credence to the implications throughout the game that the deity known as "Little Yelm" to the Hyalorings is, in fact, Yelmalio prior to losing his Fire. Moreover, thinking about Little Yelm's role in their myths, I think he might also be Antirius, since the Hyalorings portray Little Yelm as the sun god of the Dara Happans now that Yelm is dead (just as Elmal is to themselves), and when you perform rituals, triumphing over Little Yelm consistently gives you the option of choosing power over Dara Happans as your reward. Which probably explains why he's portrayed as he is in Hyaloring myths. Little Yelm is the representation of the Empire after Yelm's death, and so he is a figure of ridicule and mockery: a spoiled brat trying and comically failing to fill his daddy's shoes, his attempts to impose his sovereignty through subjugation of his supposed lessers always doomed to embarrassing failure.
  14. Leingod

    The Lore of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind

    So it turns out that in the myth "Hyalor's Long Ride" that you learn from Cenala, the identity of who struck the third mortal blow to Hyalor is dependent on your clan's ancestral enemy: Ovadorudus (who seems to be Vadrus) is Hyalor's killer if your ancestral enemies are the Rams, Shargash if it's the Dara Happans, Cragspider(?) if it's trolls, Mostal if it's the dwarves, Aroka if it's the forces of Water, and a currently-nameless head-taking god if it's Scorpion Men (i.e. Chaos, though as descendants of Dara Happans the Hyalorings don't seem to understand Chaos as its own thing the way the Orlanthi do). This mutability might simply be because of the way Hyalor's parting advice to Basikan is a message to try to understand even the forces of [insert greatest enemy of the clan telling the story here].
  15. Leingod

    The Lore of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind

    I guess that explains why they specifically want to try to reconnect with a grain goddess; I suppose Urder helps them harvest wild grains but they want a more rewarding crop to thresh. It doesn't work out, BTW; your Pela priestess ends up miserable, barely able to maintain a pitiful garden.
  16. Leingod

    The Lore of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind

    Just got an event where some Yeleni want to join your clan; they confirm that they were "Sky People like you" and identify the one god they've managed to keep as "Urder the Thresher." Which rings no bells for me.
  17. Leingod

    The Lore of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind

    Didn't the Rinliddi have a powerful empire during the Storm Age?
  18. Leingod

    The Lore of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind

    I've been playing the game again, looking for random bits of lore and such. One of the things I've noticed is how many of the other peoples living around the valley seem to be descended from refugees from Dara Happa, and I've been starting to try to piece together a picture of who each of these groups might be descended from, and how that might have shaped them. The Hyalorings and Samnali are from Nivorah, but I think it's important to note that both of them descend primarily from that city's nobility. The Hyalorings were the cavalrymen, "who despite complaints from the charioteers had always enjoyed the status of nobles. They took their wives with them and a few servants. But to ride away you had to own a horse, and to own a horse you had to be a noble." Adding onto the above, I suspect that the Hyalorings represented a newer sub-class of the nobility in Nivorah, while the Samnali were (or drew from) the older, more established nobles. The already-extant tension between them seems to have stemmed from the Samnali chafing at sharing noble status with these new upstarts, as well as simple competition for power/influence in Nivorah. It should also be pointed out that the Hyalorings left the city quickly, with nothing more than they could carry on their horses, while the Samnali stayed longer and had carts and slaves when they finally gave up Nivorah for lost, which probably also helps explain why the Hyalorings (who did still subjugate wives and daughters and hold slaves back in Nivorah) have become more egalitarian than the Samnali. Well, that and the fact that a horse is less of an investment and requires less upkeep than a chariot. The Yanadlings are a group who branched off of the Hyalorings; they were members of the Northern Riders who abandoned the worship of gods after the disastrous rule of Nameforgot in favor of spirits. The Ergeshites are nomadic herders who keep goats but not cattle or horses, and whose warriors worship a lion god and wear the pelts of great cats. In other words, they appear to worship Durbaddath, Uryarda and Ergesh. When meeting them, one of your nobles might say, “Like us, the Ergeshites fled the empire, adopting new ways during their exodus.” They'll also bring up how the goats and Uryarda leapt off Anaxial's boat early. I think the Ergeshites might have been Nivorans or other Dara Happans who were drawn from the lower (perhaps the lowest) classes of society: goatherds, perhaps some common soldiers, either or both of whom may also have been slaves. Though given how much better-off they seem than, say, the Yeleni, I think the Ergeshites might have left even earlier than the Hyalorings did, or at least that there might have already been an established community of runaways who adopted new refugees. The Ergeshites and Votanki exist as separate peoples; the Votanki are hunter-gathers who follow their immortal hero Votank (your clan will explicitly compare his leadership over them to their own relationship with Hyalor when he was still alive) and his boon companion, the spirit Brother Dog. I haven't found any event where the two give any hint as to possible relationship or interaction between themselves, but I will note that the Ergeshites are stated to live northeast of the Imther Mountains, while the Votanki are found in the Dog Hills, meaning they're relatively close to each other. I had previously said that the Yeleni weren't related to the Hyalorings, but I was mis-remembering pretty badly, because it's outright stated that their language "shows signs of kinship with yours," and they themselves say that "when we fled the destruction of our city we had to leave all but one of the old gods behind." I don't know which god that one might be (they're only stated to be spirit-talkers who venerate King Vulture), except that it isn't Pela (since they come to you hoping for a bride from your clan who can bring Pela back to them and let them farm again). Anyway, the revealing part of that is that they fled the destruction of their city. Based on geography, I'd guess that they're actually the last people to flee from Nivorah, perhaps the commoners who believed that Samnal and his followers could keep hold of the city but then were forced to flee when the Samnali finally gave the city up for lost and left with what carts and goods they could hold but abandoned the rest. Alternatively, they might be descendants of survivors from Elempur (or both!). Since they had no horses or carts and had to flee on foot at top speed, they brought even less with them than the Ergeshites. They may have lost the gods of key skills like farming simply because the worship of those deities was never really with them in the first place, as they were the common city-dwellers who were probably made up of a lot of random professions that were useless out in the wild, like dyers and glass-makers. I keep forgetting to check out the Ram kingdoms to the south, though I do remember that the Infithtelli to the southeast hate the disunited clans that are your neighbors for unclear reasons (who are of course the precursors of the Berennethtelli along with you).
  19. Seems likely. As written in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes...
  20. The writing down of knowledge is itself a sacred act to Lhankor Mhy, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's more the point than the actual knowledge itself that's being offered up, or at least a major part of the sacrifice's significance.
  21. The cult of Lhankor Mhy seems to do it, as sacrifices are exempted from the general proscription against destroying books and knowledge. I don't think it's considered a problem because, most likely, they just use redundant copies for that kind of thing.
  22. Leingod

    The Lore of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind

    Maybe because "Hyaloring" just has a better ring to it. Of course, in-game you're usually going to be called "Riders" anyway, so it doesn't matter all that much either way. Though, can someone explain to me why the Heortlings apparently called them "Ustrandi" if the wiki is to be believed?
  23. Leingod

    The Lore of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind

    Actually, Six Ages is going to be a multi-parter. Ride Like the Wind, the first part, is set in the Lesser Darkness/Storm Age. The next two planned are Lights Going Out, which will probably take place in the Greater Darkness, and The World Reborn, which is presumably the Dawn Age. In other words, it won't be until the 3rd game in the series that we're even 1,500 years away from the present.
  24. Leingod

    The Lore of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind

    Unlikely. The Hyalorings don't recognize the Yeleni as related to them in any way and they don't show any signs of being related in the way that the Yanadlings do by speaking the same language. The Hyalorings might see King Vulture as an antagonistic force more often than not, too, since both Osara and Raven have apparently fought him at least once.
  25. Leingod

    The Lore of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind

    So it turns out we do know what happened to the North Clan. Or, at least, part of it: Their name seems to come from Yanade, one of Hyalor's followers who successfully bargained with Raven and so became the founder of the Hyalorings' spirit tradition.
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