MHanretty

I couldn’t see any entry for the Dragon Emperor/Sun Dragon of Dara Happa in the 2nd age, unless I’ve missed this.

Gold Wheel Dancers are described as “One of the races of Dragon in the Dawn Age”.

Is this new? I’ve never seen them described as such, unless there is a missing word and it should read “One of the races of Dragon Pass in the Dawn Age”.

Even so, you could make some hay out that typo…

The most obvious suggestion would be Sandy Petersen - he did a fantastic podcast once with yog-sothtoth.com but goodness how you could reach him. He seems a very busy man at the best of times.

I really enjoyed this episode (and its predecessor), Ludo. Thank you for putting it together.

I know it's low-hanging fruit, but might we see similar episodes for Cults of Prax and Cults of Terror? As formative to the medium as the former is, I've always found it strange that the first major overview of Glorantha mythology focused on Prax, instead of Dragon Pass, considering how Sartar became the default setting for most Gloranthan materials.

It would be good to be able to place these books in their original historical context, i.e. have more insight into the setting's early days from a publisher standpoint (I know there's been a recent episode on how Glorantha was experienced by players back in the early days).   

Thank you. So, in older tellings, the Lightbringers met Kajabor rather than Wakboth.

I wonder if the variation of the LBQ, with Wakboth as The Devil, was written to inject a real-world sort of ambiguity to the story which, as Nick points out, is typical of authentic mythology. Alternatively, did it come from a genuine mix-up or even an attempt to streamline the concept of the Devil in Gloranthan materials? Either way, I’m glad it exists.

10 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Interesting. Kajabor killed by Wakboth. Which accounts? 

Nick’s answered that question just above your post.

Out of curiosity, when were the details of The Lightbringers Quest (and the Compromise) first published? 

There are accounts of Kajabor being the form of the devil caught in the Arachne Solara’s net, with his appearance in the underworld due his defeat and death at the hands of Wakboth. 
 

I don’t know if that account is a real-world or in-universe post-hoc explanation, which accounts for Wakboth being trapped under the Block, but it works nicely either way.

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

With the Great Compromise, the gods accepted limits on what they could do within the mundane world.  They are present (there is Air, therefore Orlanth; there is a Sun, therefore Yelm) in this world as well as in the Gods World outside of Time.  But they cannot act outside of those limits (e.g. Yelm must die every day).  The Creation of Nysalor (as much if not more so than summoning Daysenerus) brought a deity into Time who could act in a manner that was not bound by the Compromise (e.g. the Sun stopped in the Sky), hence broke it. 

Heroforming says that you are acting like your god.  E.g. as Orlanth, you can raise winds, hurl lightning, etc.  But only doing the deeds that Orlanth did in the Gods Time and accepted as limits during the Great Compromise.  In heroforming Orlanth, you cannot create firenados - it's not something he has command of based on his God Time deeds.  In heroforming Yelm, you cannot create fire rain - it's not something he has command of.

Ah. This is the distinction I was after. I think I understand now.

It does seem like there's a fair bit of grey area where one could commit an act (a crime?) of novelty but argue - in a legalistic way - that a pre-existing myth was still being honoured and replicated. 

An immediate thought came to mind of heroquesting to the Golden Age, to argue your case before the Celestial Court but, of course, the CC had already ceased to be when the Compromise was made. (Unless they were part of Yelm/Bijif's entourage in Hell, I suppose... ) 

9 hours ago, Eff said:

The one apparent exception is the Red Goddess at the opening of the Battle of Castle Blue, but she was substantially mortal in any case. And there, the suspension of the Compromise sees an amendment made which allows for the Red Moon to exist and hang in the Middle Air. (And after Moonfall, it's still there, but it's invisible.)

The events at Castle Blue always struck me more as a "Might makes right" situation than anthing else but I suppose the Orlanthi tribes can't really argue with that - unless there are tribes that don't accept the provision that "Violence is always an option".  

I’m not sure I understand the distinction. Why did Palangio incarnating Daysenerus break the Cosmic Compromise?

On the topic of the Compromise, I’ve always been unclear on how heroforming doesn’t seem to be considered a violation.

How do the Orlanthi, in particular, square incarnating a deity within Time as something other than a wholesale breaking of the rules? Just the usual barbarian hypocrisy?

Was the original Red Emperor (Doskalos/Scarlet Warlord) the biological son of the goddess or was he adopted to fulfil the role of emperor?

Were the Egi assembled before the event of the battle at Castle Blue or did Doskalos originally enjoy an existence independent of the Egi?

So, from what I’m reading here, any non-fragmentary fiction projects are unlikely at the moment.

That’s fair. Disappointing but fair, if there’s no budget for commissioning fiction from established writers (which seems to be the norm).

I would probably need Jeff to answer this (or at least someone within Chaosium) but the majority of the people who post in this forum are probably aware of the homebound Arkat’s Saga and Harmast’s Saga collections currently listed on eBay, yes?

They’re advertised as being akin to Stafford Library books in that they’re mostly fragments. Are these likely to be made public? Do Chaosium have their own copies from Greg or would these have to be privately purchased and then authorisation from the Stafford estate procured before they could be sold online?

Or would it make more sense for the current owners of the HeroQuest and RuneQuest lines to ignore these and push ahead in a new direction, should the opportunity arise for fiction set in Glorantha to be published?

First off, apologies if this topic is verboten - I have created this thread purely out of curiosity, not as a way of hectoring Chaosium staff, who I believe are doing a bang-up (and often thankless) job since the reorganisation a few years back.

With that out of the way, I am aware of several incomplete works of Glorantha fiction, all of which sound fascinating. Greg Stafford's Arkat's Saga, Harmast's Saga and Jeff's own Prince of Satar webcomic. While the former will remain incomplete - and the latter on hiatus presumably until at least 2021, given Jeff's dance card - will Chasoium ever commission other stories set in Glorantha as part of the Chaosium fiction line? Is it feasible that Penelope Love's The Widow's Tale could be reprinted by Chaosium?

More broadly, could fiction ever be considered a part of the overall strategy for bringing new people into the game line (as is the case with Games Workshop and WotC)? Was the expanded and revised King of Sartar considered a commercial success? In the current environment, is supporting a fiction line for a single setting even viable? I'm extremely curious but plainly ignorant to the business side of the hobby, so any answers on this subject would be revelatory.  

As a newcomer to this setting, I never fail to be baffled by the strength of feeling the Elmal/Yelmalio issue causes. That's absolutely not a criticism, by the way, it is a genuine sense of confusion (and maybe a little alienation) at the level of emotion the subject stirs amongst the learned.

Also, as a neophyte, the fact that this hasn't been explored to exhaustion within officially published materials is surprising. An entire campaign focusing on a struggling Elmali clan during the Yemalio takeover seems entirely plausible as a microcosm of the Solar/Storm conflict that underpins Sartar (and, for better or worse, the most visible part of the setting). If I had the talent, I'd construct a scenario focused on a young Elmali heroquesting to prove Elmal is Yelmalio post-Hill of Gold, satisfied more in his domesticity and household duties than he ever was as an ascetic in his youth. To spice things up further, said Elmali could be disturbed by clues he encounters in the Heroplane that suggest Orlanth's return to the stead post-LBQ may have ultimately unsettled Elmal and caused him to reconsider eternity as "merely" a thane; maybe the true Yelmalio is older than the protagonist of either the Hill of Gold or Elmal Guards the Stead, having shed his personality (and thereby his insecurities) to exist solely as the post-Dawn personification of the Light Rune. Or maybe the simultaneity of Godtime makes it equally possible the depersonalised Yelmalio is the "youngest" incarnation of the Little Son, immediately after emanating from Yelm (Antirius?).

I dunno, maybe that goes too far and shows up my ignorance of Dara Happan mythology. I do think that making the Y/Elmal/io controversy a more visible issue within the published materials might make the issue less fraughtwithin the fandom - if it's treated as a fundamentally contentious part of Orlanthi culture, it might, paradoxically, make differing opinions within the fandom more acceptable?

http://www.glorantha.com/readings/

This might help you, though it’s very much broad strokes.

Well, living in Scotland means the Sun often feels like an absentee father - particularly now the clocks have gone back an hour.

It’s an odd thing to revisit this thread, given  that it started before Greg’s passing. I would still desperately like to see Harmast’s Saga realised at some point but I wonder if it is more likely that something akin to The History of Middle Earth is a more realistic way of chronicling Greg’s unfinished works.

Goodbye, Greg. I am saddened at your departure but celebrate your journey - I am glad you saw your lifelong vision realised.

On 10/7/2018 at 6:43 PM, Joerg said:

A couple of years ago Fabian Küchler (chief organizer of the Tentacles conventions and now the Kraken, and editor of many a fund raiser)  came up with what was essentially a Patreon to get Greg Stafford back on his keyboard to write a Gloranthan novel. The result was (at least) the first part of "Ten Women Well Loved", telling the adventures of Harmast Barefoot from his adoption to the Hendriki tribe until his misadventures in Nochet when the Grandmothers recognized his slightly modified Berennethtelli tattoos as Kodigvari. This was significantly after Morden Defends the Camp.

From what I have seen of other such material, these starts are quite frequent in Greg's unpublished opus, and some of these have since been presented as mood pieces, like e.g. "Aftal the Waertagi" in Missing Lands. I would appreciate seeing a collection of these unfinished texts in print.

Speaking for myself, I found that writing a short mood piece in prose often gives me a better idea of a character, group or setting than giving a gazetteer-like sandbox, for less effort. Most we know about Talastar comes from Paulis Longvale's travelogue, and without Biturian Varosh we would know a lot less about Prax and Praxians. 

All of this is new to me. Is there a way to read any of this material? Did Fabian give up on trying to get a full novel out of Greg?

And Jeff Richard has talked about writing his own Harmast novel, too (going by the thread on future products)? I am beginning to find it hard to believe that many of these fiction projects will be completed in the next 5 years, though I’d be thrilled to be proven wrong. I really liked Morden Defends the Camp, which I read for the first time last week on the Glorantha.com site. And it didn’t take me long to read Prince of Sartar to the end of its available chapters.

On 9/29/2018 at 9:49 PM, Mankcam said:

It's interesting that the Arkat-Argrath idea took over, considering this wasn't Greg Stafford's initial concept.

I seem to remember reading that when he was in his late teens he first came up with a story about Prince Snodal of Seshnela, and started world-building from there. 

Given his early fascination with The Illiad and with Arthurian lore, influences from both were bound to meld into what would become Gloranthan canon.

Yes, earlier posts stated the earliest Glorantha material was set in what is now known (to us) as the west.

Speaking of prose fiction, would anyone be able to explain the development of Harmast’s Saga to me, please? I understand extracts have been read at various cons over the years and that Morden Defends the Camp is or was to be the first chapter.

Do we have any more info? I vaguely remember reading that the title “A Pyre for Gods and Heroes” was being considered?

Excellent! Already ordered, though nearly £8.00 for shipping was steeper than I was expecting.

Still, the discount voucher for having bought the .pdf took some of the sting away.

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

Starting with King of Sartar, but more specifically with the subsequent Glorious ReAscent of Yelm and Entekosiad, all of these helped raise the consideration that the God Learner view is not everything, that there are multiple facets to the myths.  However, they don't (and shouldn't) create two deities that are similar but polar opposites.  That is part of the consideration of Elmal/Yelmalio now.

Can I get some clarification on the bolded? I don’t think Elmal and Yelmalio are polar opposites but they do owe their loyalties to opposing camps which potentially makes for a stumbling block in their common identification. Not an insurmountable stumbling block but the lack of explicit mythological connective tissue between loyalty to Yelm and loyalty to Orlanth (seemingly in that order) made me wonder if Greg wanted to keep things fuzzy.

However, the point could be moot and I could be reading too much into things here. My only reticence for adopting the explanation offered in The Birth of Elmal is that (despite coming from the horse’s mouth) it was written in an in-universe style. Still, Occam’s razor and all that - making the sun too much of a bad guy might be a hard sell when sea season and fire season roll around.

I’m aware that there’s at least a couple of threads on the front page discussing Elmal/Yelmalio but I’d like a bit of real-world context for this (perennial?) topic.

Am I correct in saying that Elmal was introduced fairly late in the day, in the early 90s? More subjectively, is it fair to suggest this was done to inject some ambiguity into Gloranthan mythology? By knowingly creating a similar deity to the already established Yelmalio - with the polar opposite loyalties, politically speaking - does this force the audience to look outside of the God Learner mentality, with their neat, tidy and discrete gods and goddesses?

Of couse, this naturally leads me to the following question: when were the God Learners introduced and in what book? They’re a great concept but seem very on-the-nose for a setting used chiefly by roleplayers. 

Alternatively, maybe I should take Greg’s The Birth of Elmal more literally and just accept Elmal as a logical and necessary myth for the Orlanthi? After all, what culture, historical or fictitious, has ever truly hated a life-giving sun?

16 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Isn't it badass?😍

It's excellent, though I'm glad I'd read Dictionary of the Khazars beforehand - without that experience I probably would have insisted it on reading it linearly, like a novel, which would have made for a much more difficult read.

21 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Love it. The short answer is "not yet" but maybe if you have some free time we can start putting something together. While Greg Himself didn't keep a lot of precise diachronic notes there's no reason not to compile what we do have. It's a worthy tribute to his achievement, provided of course that's something he'd want.

Not sure I can be of any help (I don't have any training in literary analysis or practical knowledge of relevant fields like comparative mythology and archaeology) but would certainly like to see more of what you're attempting. Is this project of yours completely fan-sourced or is Chaosium involved in some way? 

I'm a fairly new visitor to the world of Glorantha (I've just bought a copy of King of Sartar and am reading it alongside the .pdf of The Glorantha Sourcebook) but I'm just as fascinated with the development of the mythology as I am with the mythology itself.

Is there any resource which lists all of the concepts introduced with each Glorantha release? For example, was Argrath introduced in White Bear and Red Moon? Did Arkat exist as a concept before the introduction of Argrath? Is the former a retcon designed to lend more weight to the latter? These are the kind of things I'm interested in.