Mirza

I've long been wondering about the diet of the Sartarite Orlanthi, as a modern person, I feel so divorced from the very basics of everyday sustenance that the kind of subsistence farming that the Quivini live by, but I know that food is the absolute basis of societal structure in our world, so to understate it, food's rather important, and perhaps I should start by breaking things up into a list of what I'm aware of or have questions about: Grains: Made into bread, the most common and densest form of caloric intake, I'm unsure how many different grains, and ways of preparation exist for the Sartarites, also how much grain does a person need per year? And does each village have a baker making the bread or is it made household by household? I know grains and ancient farming are a huge topic of actual historical debate, so keeping it a generalist overview might be to everyone's benefit. Alcohol: Here's the big unknown to me, is it just something for feasts? Or is their everyday water consumption have some diluted wine added to it to make it safe? Is everyone making some non-distilled hooch in an amphora in the house? Or is there still a single or small group of Minlinster (through Orlanth) cultists making the clans beer in the chieftain's longhouse? Meats: Only eaten during feasts or from small game hunting for the common man, more commonly eaten by nobles/priests from more commonly having the time for big game hunting (or trading for it), still not an everyday thing, farm animals require Peaceful Cut by a Waha layperson to slaughter the animal so a holy ritual, not the primary barrier to eating meat, but still one that exists, commonly there's a day of slaughter for the animals that aren't going to make it through the winter, but how often are meats preserved instead of directly used after the slaughter? Milk/Cheese: Milk isn't directly consumed regularly, a person might drink it when prescribed by a Chalana Arroy or Ernaldan healer for a pain in the stomach (ulcer), I know the Grazelanders ferment horse milk into Kumis, an achoholic beverage, but cheeses are the most common dairy with rennet from bull calves stomachs (which subsequently the carcass gets used for veal), goat cheeses are never eaten due to the animal being taboo, but how often do they prepare cow cheese and consume it? Butter I'm unsure about since it spoils quickly, do the Orlanthi make Ghee? or is Sartar cold enough that butter is more common there compared to Esrolia? Yogurts? Eggs: The primary reason to keep chickens (the potential meat is a side benefit), an egg a day keeps Humakt away. Legumes (I could be completely wrong here): Speculatively a common source of protein in the commoner Sartarite diet, similarly to grains, I don't know the varieties, how much they eat, or if they even do. Fruit/Vegetables/Leafy Greens: Added primarily for either their vitamin content or their flavorings, not the primary source of calories, but (like Apple Lane) enough to devote acreage for a farmer to work, trading for grains? Or is it more common for merely a smaller household garden or individual fruit tree for these with Apple Lane as the cash crop exception? Forage Findings (Mushrooms, Wild Herbs, Tubers(?), Wild Eggs, Others): As can be found, but unless the people are near a forest or something, not likely to be commonly found, I know pigs can be used to find truffles in forests so maybe the same happens in Sartar? Fish: Good source of protein when it can be caught, everyone fishes to some extent, but there are fisher underclasses in clans like in the Red Cow that make their trade exclusively off it (not a proper Orlanth approved way of living, but he does support taking what you want, he certainly did). Do the Sartarites use rod and tackle, or do they use nets? I'm inclined to say that nets are more used by the peoples on the main flows of the Stream or the Creek, with rod and tackle used everywhere there's a reasonable flow of water for fishing. I think that hits the major categories of food that a Orlanthi Sartarite would deal with on the daily, there's probably more exotic stuff I've missed or just plain forgot about, I know there's a tediousness in asking this to be listed out for me, but genuinely knowing a people's diet makes them far more comprehensible to me.

"The Lead Grimoire This grimoire is a very ancient scroll sealed with lead bulla. The seal bears a strange symbol of three arrows each pointing outward and joined in the center – the Rune of Arkat. The scroll dates from the Second Age and contains cryptic sorcerous secrets of Arkat. It is written in the Western script." Sartar Companion pg 178

Sea Trolls bite at 65% skill at SR 9 for 2d8+2d6 damage in the Glorantha Bestiary. So 2d8 (crushing damage?) at SR 6 before Dex and Siz SR are added on as an "unarmed" weapon (base 25% skill) seems to be the norm for a trolls bite. I assume that the reason it's left off the Dark Troll and other non-Sea Troll stat blocks is just because they're better armed, and thus far less likely to use their jaws as weapons, compared to the unarmed Sea Troll. Also keep in mind that Sea Trolls are a bit stronger and much bigger than a typical Dark Troll, so that 2d6 strength and size bonus should come down for them.

Here's an image of the Third Eye Blue group that you can encounter in Six Ages. "Explorer and company, exploring in the north, meet unfamiliar outlanders wearing much heavier armor than you've seen on any human. They call themselves the Third Eye Blue—an odd name for a people! This must refer to the blue eyes tattooed in the middle of their foreheads. They ask if you know anything about dwarves and their hideouts. "The minions of the dread god Mostal hide the secrets of metal-working from humankind. We have come from the west to pry this lore from their hidden vaults." -Six Ages From this encounter I'd say that the Third Eye Blue have yet to steal the secret of Iron from the Mostali (They're still working on that), and that their Empire is still extant in what will become Fronela, and North West Peloria at this point (Late Storm Age). From here on is some speculation. The Brass Mountain Third Eye Blue are the eastern most outpost of the Third Eye Blue, and is probably the region where the Six Ages Third Eye Blue hail from. Their outlying nature, away from Nida is perhaps what allowed them to survive the destruction of the Third Eye Blue Empire by the Mostali. I presume that the theft of Iron was accomplished before the onset of the Great Darkness, perhaps within the generation of the encounter, or perhaps within a century or two, followed relatively quickly with the destruction of the Third Eye Blue Empire once it becomes known to the Mostali. Valind's Glacier is baring down on central Peloria, but I can accept that it doesn't actually expand evenly, so Dara Happa got the Glacier before Charg or somewhere further to the West (I also presume that Valind hates the Sun just as much as the other Air Gods, so he wants to wreck up Yelm's old haunt.) As a quick thought, perhaps the expansion of Valind's Glacier into the Third Eye Blue Empire is precisely what prompted the theft of Iron from the Mostali. I'm aware that I'm not necessarily including Vadrudi, Ragnaglari, and Hykimi interactions with the Third Eye Blue there, or any sort of speculation on Kachisti and Third Eye Blue relations, but I presume there were interactions between them. (Third Eye Blue as Kachisti remnants? or as escaped Kachisti from Mostali enslavement? or just the Crafting People of Law?)

Just taking a random crack at it, ANM-ahn-garn, and Kel-LEER, are how I pronounce those just reading them off. (Hard K/C sound for Kellyr, like Kite or Car.) Not sure how accurate that'd be to Glorantha linguistics but eh, thems how I pronounce em.

I'll quote Jeff on this specific topic: So yes, the Yelmalion can go to Runegate and worship there at the Elmal shrine as if it were a Yelmalio shrine, and vice-versa, and it works as normal for worshiping their god. The major issue with doing so isn't the divine, but the Elmali resentment towards the Yelmalions. To the Elmali that remain in Runegate, the Yelmalions are those that abandoned Orlanth, that they were no longer the Loyal Thanes to Orlanth instead following their god in this strange way, there's also the political consequences of a significant portion of Runegate leaving for Vantaar (Sun Dome Temple in Sartar.) They just up and left, and in so leaving perhaps made it possible for the Lunars to destroy Runegate during the Invasion of Sartar (well at least some Elmali will believe that.) As for an Elmali wanting to worship at Vantaar or any other Sun Dome Temple? They'd be welcomed by Yelmalions more than likely, the Yelmalions might try to convince the Elmali to convert to Yelmalio, but I doubt they' deny access to the Temple even if they didn't convert. The Yelmalions don't resent the Elmali, they see them as misguided perhaps but then again their fathers, and mothers too were once misguided in the same way, and that they still worship the same god even in a different fashion.

Pg 77, Senela has two differing sets of Rune Spells. Also her Befuddle spirit magic, her Charm skill, and the first letter of her Dance skill are all in bold type. Pg 144, It says "Not Lunars all decadent,..." for Escatar's slogan, probably meant to be "Not all Lunars are decadent,...".

Aren't goats associated with Ragnaglar, and Thed? I thought that's why they're considered unclean, and hated by the Orlanthi as they are the animal totem of two of the Unholy Trio.

Yeah, it is the narrow view of "marks the place" but that's sorta the common interpretation of that phrase with that context. If I were say something marks the place you're either saying the thing marked is either measured for some kind of construction, destruction or alteration in a project (writing, building, carpentry, treasure hunting, etc), or that something commemorates or memorializes the location is some way for an action that previously occurred there. If it were to say that something happened there, or some other more passive phrasing that doesn't imply causality like the other descriptions of Hrelar Amali in the Guide, I wouldn't have ever even attempted to argue this, but it's not, instead it's a phrase that's almost always used in context for stuff like memorials, plaques, signs built afterwards so that they can learn of whatever happened. I do not think that Hrelar Amali took 12 generations of building, that's around 240 years or so, and as Angkor Wat (still my mental image) took around 100 years, closer to 5 generations is my estimate, and I am not so sure that Zorak Zoran left "hardly any population left". The Lartuli cliff relief depicts the Solar Horse Woman fighting the Dragon Ruler of the Underworld, I would date this relief to the Middle to Late Storm Age after the Uz had left Wonderhome and fought the Enerali, and it's certainly not a monument to just Zorak Zoran killing everyone, from it I'm willing to say that the Storm Age Enerali held their own for the forays the Uz made that far west. I will give you this, yeah that was a misstep on my part, my bad. I'm not so sure that Flamal's body was still around, Zorak Zoran is still an Uz deity and hunger is a part of him, moreso he's a god that wields fire. I'm no poet, or really all that creative, but you could probably say the "consuming flames of Zorak Zoran" or some such after he chopped Flamal down. Yeah I made a mistake, again, and decided for a dumb statement that in the moment I thought was better than it clearly was. Flamal was dead, yes, but thinking, the earth sleep would take more than just Flamal's death in Ralios as Rala, and Gata still provide earth fertility til they eventually went to sleep/died as well. As I said, I think that Flamal's death occured in the late Storm Age as is backed up by the God Learner Maps in the Guide, before the Earth went to sleep, and so Hrelar Amali was started or more than likely even finished during that age. It's true that the Earth after even just Flamal's death would be reduced in fertility, but Rala and Gata haven't died yet, and I do not think that any of the gods the Enerali worshiped would be considered "estranged" at this point. Isn't that Hate Kills Everything? That took place well after the end of construction of Hrelar Amali in my timetable, like maybe several hundred years (well "years") after the completion of Hrelar Amali, maybe somewhat longer if Six Ages perspective on the God Time is to be taken as accurate. (According to an event in Six Ages it's been thousands of years since Yelm was killed by Orlanth, with "current" times being Valind's Glacier bearing down on Vanch.) I don't think that the Great Darkness just took a hundred years to occur, or at least for Hate Kills Everything to occur, and as I have said in a previous post, Hate Kills Everything massively messed up the Enerali even in my version of events.

I've always valued the internal narratives of the peoples of Glorantha, and other settings, so I already feel a bit bad for assigning these events to points on the Godlearner monomyth timeline, don't get me started. The Kachisti were an ancient people of Law that had similar views towards the gods as the Brithini/Danmalastani. While yes, to their credit, they were certainly more willing to move about, and speak to other groups of peoples, and learn from them, why would they ever build a structure like Hrelar Amali right in the heart of the domain of Flamal? I do not think that wood or petrified wood are the construction of Hrelar Amali, it was left unattended for several thousand "years" until the Dawn when it was repopulated which rules out a wood construction as that wouldn't last the period of abandonment. For petrified wood, if Hrelar Amali were to be made of it, then wouldn't that be something notable about it, and in the descriptions we have? Like if there were a passage that says "The petrified city of the gods, Hrelar Amali", then I'd say sure, but there isn't so I have to assume it's probably made of the most reasonable construction material that can last as long as it did, stone. Hrelar Amali did not exist before Flamal's death as we have been told, moreover I cannot see Flamal even accepting it's construction while alive. Hrelar Amali is a stone construction, for as much as the Mostali are enemies of Flamal so is stone his enemy as well. To Flamal a stone city of the gods built around him would be wholescale rejection of him, Flamal's gifts are the bounty of the forest, the growth of life, to have a portion of his forest torn down just for some stone buildings is a grave insult. But if Flamal is dead when construction occured then well there's no issue with his relation to stone, the forest is dead already, and every indication points towards that being the case. The Mostali were near the peak of their martial power during this time, in fact it is more likely to be the other way around, the Nidans as slave takers, like they did with the Kachisti, rather than those enslaved. As well I cannot see the Mostali idling around while the Enerali build Hrelar Amali for multiple generations with Mostali slave labor, the Nidans have zero problem just sending out the Irons to kill the Enerali if that's what they need to do to retrieve their people. Also if the Enerali had enslaved some Mostali, why wouldn't they just force them to teach the Enerali masonry, and smithing themselves? Like there are certainly secrets a Mostali isn't going to tell the Enerali even under pain of death, but redsmithing isn't one of those. The only known source of this magic is Mostali sorcery to my knowledge which still leads us to the same problems as before with them. Most earth cults seem to just build their temples and such with good old elbow grease, and artisinal skill, not earth shaping magic. The Jolanti weren't freed yet, and they are the kind of giants that have the Mostali stone shaping sorcery. As for True Giants, the Giants of Ralios are unknown to us, but like most other True Giants do not seem to be as knowledged or skilled in construction as the Rockwood Giants north of Prax. As well we again reach the question of wouldn't the Enerali just have the giants teach them the skill of stone masonry? I can't speak to Greg or Jeff's knowledge of geology, but no texts to my knowledge have jade in Ralios, as I said the closest known source of jade is somewhere available to Dragon Pass, perhaps Esrolia, and Caladraland, because of the volcanic activity in that region, and thus a source for metamorphic rock and potentially jade. There's nothing that indicates that jade has a different origin in Glorantha than it has in the real world, it is still a metamorphic rock that requires intense heat to form. In fact I would go so far as to say that there are myths in Glorantha where jade is a gift (or one of many) from Lodril to Ernalda for their marriage, but for the Enerali, Lodik never married Gata, and seems to not be associated with volcanos but fire as a whole, no wonder as there are no volcanoes in the region. My point with the orogeny comment was to make it clear that neither the Rockwoods nor Nidan Mountains are the necessary source of metamorphic rocks to make jade tools a reasonable option for the period of time it would take to create Hrelar Amali, as their orogeny is most like continental collision than oceanic subductive orogeny. I do not deny their mythological origins, but that the result for what the peaks were composed of would be similar to the Himalayas. Mount Selon wouldn't produce jade save in very small particles that wouldn't be useful for the Enerali as tool stone as they'd be embedded in impactite from the mountain crashing down, not as the kind of small chunks that could viably turned into a tool. Doktados is on the other side of the Mislari Mountains from Ralios, it is a non-viable source of jade for the Enerali, presumably the Mislari have existed as long as the Rockwoods, with only Mount Selon coming crashing down later. Right, I forgot you believed this, as I said however long ago it was, I still go with the answer that doesn't include there being another solar horse people, one Pure Horse and Hykimi, one not, but never mentioning the other in the same write-up. The Galanini are the Solar Enerali, descendants of two sons of Eneral, Uton and Fornao, they are Pure Horse People. I hardly call it "realism-myopia" to say that a people had the ability to construct a stone temple city complex in Glorantha, right as their civilization hit it's peak, just before a sharp decline from the apocalypse going on.

The status of Hrelar Amali as The City of the Gods implies a whole different scale on stoneworking and refinement to me than Göbekli Tepe, a large scale temple city complex large enough to several hundred people (even by 130 ST Hrelar Amali was still underpopulated for it's size, imo), that required multiple generations of people to create, making me think that skilled masons were involved in it's construction. (Not to speak ill of Göbekli Tepe, that's still impressive as hell.) The Mostali certainly have that skill, but thinking about Muse Roost and how expensive just the walls were for Ethilrist leads me to believe that the Dwarves of Nida aren't going to do a temple city complex on the cheap to help out the Enerali. (I know that the Dwarves of Dwarf Mine and the Nidan Dwarves aren't the same, but Bad Deal points towards them being similar in this regard for what amount of trading Nida does.) Now Mostali as a source of tools isn't quite fine, again there's issue of how exorbitant the Nidan's prices are, if they did purchase the tools and training it also would leave us with skilled masons but without a society able to make the tools required to have developed, and maintain that skill for the multi-generational work Hrelar Amali would be. There's also even the question of if the Nidans were even willing to sell the skill of their workers, their tools, or to train the Enerali in their usage in the first place as it would be for memorializing an enemy of the Mostali, Flamal. Flamal is one of the hated enemies of the Mostali, why would they ever lift a finger to help people that loved him memorialize him with a grand temple city complex? Yeah they'll make a victory monument for his death, but that's somewhere inside Nida. Jade is a possibility, but to my knowledge the nearest known source of it would be Dragon Pass or perhaps Esrolia, in the temple Baroshi will later fight Osboropo and the Chaos Maggot during the Chaos Wars being made of carved jade, so with Gloranthan works not giving us the answer then it's on to geology. "Jadeite and nephrite are minerals that form through metamorphism. They are mostly found in metamorphic rocks associated with subduction zones. This places most jadeite and nephrite deposits along the margins of current or geologically ancient convergent plate boundaries involving oceanic lithosphere." -Hobart M. King, Ph.D., GIA Graduate Gemologist As Ralios/Seshnela shows no volcanism in the coastal regions of Arolanit, Seshnela, and Tanisor from plate subduction as is found in the Ring of Fire for the Pacific Ocean's coastal regions, and that the Nidan Mountains, and Rockwoods seem to have not formed from oceanic subduction (They seem to have formed from continental collision, and therefore non-volcanic Orogeny, like the Himalayas), it is therefore unlikely that the Enerali had a source of jade to be used for stone mason tools. There is also Vieltor, everything indicates that he's a pre-Theyalan smithing god, he's a known deity to the Enerali when the Theyalan missionaries reach Hrelar Amali, and as we can see with Orlanth, the Theyalans had zero issue with introducing their gods with the Theyalan name. Specifically he's Gustbran as I have said earlier in the thread, not some craftgod associated with soft metal smithing, but the fiery redsmith himself. With the implied lavishness of Hrelar Amali as the City of the Gods requiring stone masons, expense of Nidan stone working tools being well outside the capabilities (or the ability, potentially) of the Storm Age Enerali to purchase on top of not being a multi-generational viable plan, zero access to jade, and finally with a pre-Theyalan smithing deity already present (Vieltor), we are left with but a single reasonable option Joerg, the late Storm Age Enerali were capable of metal smithing other than gold, and that it was lost in the Great Darkness. No, I doubt nearly anyone surviving was hit as hard as Tada's people in the Great Darkness, that's kinda what happens when your culture hero-god fights the would-be despoiler and annihilator of existence, and loses. But still the Enerali were hit hard, I have to imagine there was significant fallout from Hate Kills Everything that reduced the Enerali to what they were at the Dawn. I have never been arguing that the Hykimi weren't capable of a megaliths or structures like Göbekli Tepe or their own innovations. Across this thread and the last I have argued that the Enerali developed a pastoralist civilization, for the Utoni and Fornaoli the pastoralism is Pure Horse, during the late Golden Age, and Storm Age to be capable to create Hrelar Amali, a large scale multi-generational stone construction comparable to something like Angkor Wat, and the Lartuli cliff relief, and that the knowledge and skill was lost to the Enerali as they survived the Great Darkness, but remains in small bits of their post-Dawn culture. I have also argued previously that the Enerali were once Hykimi, but that it isn't all that relevant to them now as they stopped being Hykimi a long long time ago, it would be like trying to call a Runegate Elmali a Dara Happan from Murharazam's reign, it was that long ago. Hrelar Amali was built after Eurmal/Zaval's murder of Flamal, "and marks the place where Flamal, the God of Vegetation, was killed by Eurmal the Trickster." -pg 417 Guide Vol 2, it was basically the extreme of the late Storm Age/start of the Great Darkness that it was completed. (Kinda hard to build a temple city complex on the spot of a gods murder before he was murdered.) Here's a quote for you Martin.

I gotta agree with Martin on this, Joerg, the Storm Age Enerali seem more sophisticated than are given credit, I am inclined to say that Hrelar Amali, and the Lartuli cliff relief were their creations, indicating a culture capable of large scale stone cutting, and thus metal tools, and smithing. And that the Enerali were cut down harsher than even most other surviving peoples by the Great Darkness, with scattered remnants still present in their culture, and gods as to what they were capable of.Though I fully acknowledge that this is conjecture on my part. I should be clear, my mental image for Hrelar Amali is something closer to Angkor Wat than anything else (more than a bit anachronistic, and out of place I know, since it appears in the Teshan artwork on pg 432 of the Guide.) I would like to say one thing, Martin, Vieltor the Smithing God who's also a Fire Elemental? I believe that's Gustbran, or at least that's who the Theyalans would identify him as after they arrive.

True, I don't necessarily have a problem with Yelorna as another little sun, I was simply looking for the commonalities between her and other deities, perhaps she's the Aldryami of Greatwood's Little Sun, a sibling to Galana/Galanin. But then it leaves a bit of a question on the Dara Happan identification of Yelorna, then again Yasmur isn't on The God's Wall so Yelorna might still not be on there, or perhaps Tindalos' idea of Avivorus/Hastatus as Yelorna is correct.

Are you thinking Musa or Supla then? Musa seems to be more obvious answer of the two, as the bearer of light, but just want to make sure. Also I'm not cruel enough to ask you to search for that source for my own selfish desires, that theory seems interesting.

Your version of the events are completely plausible here, and was the other period I thought Arkat's truth to the Galanini could theoretically happen. I just decided to be cautious and lean towards a period with more textual evidence of Arkat purging Nysalor's revelations from Hrelar Amali, and thus the Galanini. Yeah my assumption is that Yelorna wouldn't be under that name, and I agree with Elorna as the Ralian name (maybe Ehlorna?). For trying to identify Yelorna with a Dara Happan, since this the Khordavu dynasty period of Dara Happa it would be tempting to use exclusively the God's Wall for identification, but at the same time the Plentonic Debates are in full swing by now making it clear that Plentonius' identifications aren't absolute. Still if I were to identify Yelorna with a God's Wall deity, well Ourania is the most like Yelorna of the God's Wall figures but Jeff has explicitly said she isn't her though, so perhaps Oropum then as I see a connection between being the Guiding Star and the Light in the Dark. Or again as the Plentonic Debates are going on, and the fallibility of Plentonius is known, perhaps she isn't a God's Wall figure at all, some other star in the sky, acceptable to proper Dara Happan social mores, but lesser enough not to be on the God's Wall.