Dethstrok9

Thanks to you, I am now able to post my 250 subscriber special. We are Legion...

Just now, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

Precisely, and better expressed using fewer words.

Yep, me too, pulp ruins the game for me.

3 hours ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

see many posts on here, discussing how to handle players and spells, investigators and "Mythos Magic", how a Keeper should handle players who want to delve into the Forbidden Arts and so on. I'd like to put forward my own take on this subject, discuss it and leave options 'revealed' for Keepers to use in future games.

Completely understandable, and I respect your opinion. This is mine. 

3 hours ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

Before I start, I must declare certain, ah, strictures:

1. This is game use in long campaigns; considering how long it takes to digest a Mythos tome, possibly benefitting from knowledge of spells, one-shot or single-session scenarios needn't worry. Unless, of course, they become campaigns so Keepers should keep some ideas to the back of the mind.
2. Campaigns where the Investigators are intended to become "the bad guys" or, at least, rival cultists needn't use any or all of these considerations.
3. You do you! Experienced Keepers know that no matter how well planned, how careful the intent is in a game development, we're down to a random factor; not dice, but players. If players choose to change the dynamic of a campaign, then so be it!
4. These are my own thoughts, in-house rules and experience-based considerations. They are in no way, shape or form official guidance or rock-solid legislation! Pick what you like, ignore what you like. I'm happy to discuss my "considerations" and, of course, completely accept a good argument for difference. These are mere, um, ramblings. 

 I feel there are many more ways spells could be used successfully then simply "they must become the bad guys". I recommend my own video on understanding mythos magic here, and this will form the basis of my entire argument, but spells are useful most as a Plot Device. When they are taken as more than stats on a sheet of paper and instead serve the unfolding narrative, that is when they are most useful. And yes, experienced Keepers very much know how to improvise and adapt as the game sees fit. For example, I never tell the players exactly how a spell works. Ever. That way, it can work as I need it to and will never break the game because spells can work differently in different situations. Spells do NOT have to be a game changer or something that takes away from the atmosphere. Anything can be used to increase the horror aspect and move the story forward, including "magic".

 And yes, I appreciate you taking the time to write all this and again want this to be my argument back, not in any way I'm right and you're wrong.

4 hours ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

Consideration 1: Vive Le Difference!

Call of Cthulhu is not a fantasy role-playing game! It is a role-playing game, and it has fantasy (i.e. unreal) elements to it. It's prime element is being based on HPL's literature. Thus at its core, the Investigators are the Good Guys and the Cultists and various nasty creatures, the bad guys. It is based in reality - it doesn't matter what period of history - but that reality accepts magic or at least occult practices are real! However, in this Game Reality, Investigators are not just fantasy characters in sharp, 1920's suits. This is why (in my own experience) CoC stood out from the games of the day. RuneQuest gave us a good alternative system; Call of Cthulhu gave us a game based in (a) reality!

We hit the double-edged athame straight away: it's reality but it allows for Mythos and non-existent opponents with magical skills! So why should an Investigator not learn spells? Why not indeed?

Because investigators - player characters - are the ordinary hero. The guys and gals who are horrified by magic and it's potential for corruption. They are not superheroes, they are the "reality" person in an unreal situation. And, getting back to my proposition that the 'core' value of Call of Cthulhu as a game is that you play an ordinary Joe/Jane in an extraordinary world. And having a list of spells you can cast is hardly 'ordinary'! Not to be too scathing but we're playing CoC and not some D&D-clone; no character classes, no hit point to experience correlation, no "fight first and worry about the law later" thinking.

Well, the latter might still work but you know what I mean!

I would disagree with the generalization that all investigators are automatically good and all cultists and monsters are automatically bad. Slightly more true would be all investigators are ignorant whilst all Mythos entities are enlightened, but this too is a generalization (The Idiot God Athathoth for example of stupid enemies, although the point could be made that the Crawling Chaos is technically an extension of aforementioned god and acts as his intelligence...). No Call of Cthulhu is not a fantasy RPG, it is horror. And horror has some themes of curses, spells, and the summoning of daemons which permeate the genre. While the "bad guys" use are often the main magic users, the good guys sometimes need to use a spell or two to attempt to defeat the darkness. Then again, the plot device that all magic should serve as comes into play, and there are many different ways a keeper can utilize the uncanny and unholy nature of magic and spells against the players, even as the players try to bend the magiks to their personal will.

 One thing I always say about CoC magic (again, check my video on Mythos Magic:) is that it must come at a cost. It seems your major argument against magic is that it ruins the mood of the horror game, but that means you don't understand the way magic in CoC is supposed to work, at least in my opinion. Anytime the Investigators attempt to use or understand the eldritch, there should be a cost. And this actually will strengthen the players sense they that are nothing but inferior or an ordinary person (not even hero in most cases, to me Call of Cthulhu has the players as victims, whereas D&D and RQ and similar fantasy systems uses the "hero" stereotype. Magic in Call of Cthulhu also greatly differs from that of D&D because of both the cost in sanity / magic points (which keepers should portray more than just saying you lose 10 sanity, they should make the role-play embedded into the losses and gains of the Investigator, imo), and the way the spells actually work. There are very few utility spells in CoC, and even the "utility spells" come with costs not to be taken lightly, plus homebrewing even more complex spells always helps. And again I stress the point of not ever letting your players know exactly what a spell will do.

 The way spells in CoC are supposed to work and be used, I don't think there will ever be danger of a player confusing this game with D&D 5E.

4 hours ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

Consideration 2: Rarity.

Taking that magic exists in the 'reality' of the CoC game, it's not acceptable! It's not the 'done thing'. It's been frowned upon by society as soon as one bloke-dressed-in-sober-clothes said "That woman gave my cow a nasty look and now it's a bad milker - is there a connection?"

Magic may exists but firstly, it's not common, and secondly, it's open use is frowned upon. In so-called Enlightened Times, it's dismissed as arrant nonsense. So, if you were in the know, and had such abilities at your command, then you wouldn't wander around looking like a star-spangled Gandalf or even "that weird guy who talks to his furniture and knows what underwear my Mom has on!"

The argument that 'experienced' investigators understand that magic has a reality is fine ... but how does that sound to those not in on the secret?

Point is, magic in Call of Cthulhu exists but isn't common. In fact, it's so rare it acts as a warning. After all, who casts spells but those linked to the Mythos? Aren't they the Bad Guys?

Very true, magic is rare. No one on here ever said there had to be magic or spellcasting every session, so I mean, we basically know this already.

As to your point that magic is shunned by society, I completely agree and feel you can play this up tremendously in any game you run. But no, not all people who cast spells are automatically enemies of that which is good. Often they are just ignorant.

4 hours ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

Consideration 3: Usage.

In this I appeal to Keepers with a personal 'house rule' that's worked most of the time*.

When an Investigator gets their hands on a major spell-giving Mythos book, and they fail to comprehend a spell (i.e. learn its use) then the Sanity check is made (and failed) then they cannot ever learn that spell! We're not talking about someone screwing up an exam, that they can retake later, using another book. They just "don't get it!" They have experience of that spell, and may recognise it's casting or components that are used but it's just beyond them!

This may discourage players who decide their Investigators wish to embark on a career as being an alternative Doctor Strange (TM) and completely miss the point about Call of Cthulhu (see Consideration 1).

* Right up until I had a player who'd decided her investigator who'd 'accidentally' discovered his occult powers and 'collected' spells for future reference. When they did actually learn a spell, it blasted their sanity. It wasn't only realising the 'truth' but the 'true' believer was shocked to find they had been right all along! Zen and the art of Magic, eh?

This is interesting, but it's a home rule and not in any way necessary unless you are letting your players abuse the magic system. If a player wants to be an occultist let them, the keeper should be able to work with that and make the story still terrifying. The magic is unpredictable and takes more from the caster than it ever gives them. I personally houserule most anything that needs it, and will reiterate to you what I say constantly to everyone. If the "point about Call of Cthulhu" is the creation of a collaborative horror story, then the rules are just suggestions! If you decide it would work better for the story for a player to be able to cast a spell the moment they read it from the scrap of paper, then feel free. If you decide it would work far better if the player had to study the spells for years before being able to cast it, that works just as well. It all depends on the scenario and the situation, and the main thing every keeper must learn is not to be constrained by the rules. 

 I think you should start using magic so it always works for you, rather than sticking to the rulebook or spell description, but that is just my opinion.

4 hours ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

Consideration 4: A Matter of Trust.

If you are a group of Investigators, who've been through many horrors together and trials yet come through, defeating those damnable cultists, how comfortable do you feel (in 'game reality') when the professor starts to show an ... eagerness to acquire arcane books, blood yet to dry on the covers, to *ahem* add to his knowledge in the fight against etc. etc.? It may be simplistic but "Cultists use magic so using magic may make you a cultist" is a thought for the characters. Yes, you might be gathering counter-weapons but, then again, you seem a bit eager to obtain such-and-such ingredient or be a tad careless over learning that a child has been kidnapped: "Oh, yeah. It might mean they're going to perform the Rite of Akerchaly. It's almost May Eve? We'd better get a move on then ..." A Keeper must take team dynamics into consideration. Should everyone in the group be okay with one person becoming the Level 7 Mage (in CoC terms) then so be it. See what happens. But isn't this actually going against the feel of the whole game?

 This does not help your point, since this is a horror game. If a member of the group suddenly begins a downward spiral into madness that began with a spellcasting, it works perfectly into everything Call of Cthulhu represents.

The players feeling comfortable is almost never the main idea of the game. Simply do not give your players spells they can abuse, and I say again, just don't give them the statistics for the spell and use the spell to the story's advantage at all times. Push the horror. If you use the spells included with the Keepers guide, there will never be any way a person can become anything like a mage in d&d, because the magic is fundamentally evil and working against the player (in most cases, this is also a generalization, but to me a necessary one).

4 hours ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

Consideration 5: Balance.

Many folks - Keepers and players - are okay with the prevalence of magic, reasoning that the bad guys and (let's face it) the feckin' creatures of Call of Cthulhu are so strong that the Investigators need spells, to fight the Mythos on it's own terms. I suggest it's not a form of arms race. The game itself is balanced.

I know, I know - settle down and hear me out.

The Investigators fight the Creatures because they don't realise how incredibly nasty they are. We, as players, do. So if you decide you need to weapon-up, you - not your character - is thinking "I'm in deep doo-doo here!" So, as time goes on, and your characters realises magic is 'real' then you decide to 'arm' your team with some arcane tools. Such as learned spells. These come at a cost. Not only to Magic Points but to your sanity. To balance your strength against Mythos, you are willing to lose your mind! This expects us, as players, to role-play! Worrying about the consequences to your mind, being reluctant to fight fire with fire, is role-playing. Just saying "Yeah, whatever; what dice do I roll to subtract sanity?" is not.

True, but this game is definitely not balanced, and the point is actually not fighting or defeating the big bad (in my experience). I have never heard this argument before, but let's assume it does exist and is prevalent.  

 Investigators do not need spells, and spells will often not help them even if they had them. If the players are just saying "what dice do I roll", it's your job as the keeper to push them off the cliff. Narrate and get them into it, show them how anything that happens to the character sheet should be role-played. Also, and I say this because I know people who do it, do not be condescending or tell them they are doing something wrong. Instead, show them how much better role-playing in the RPG is:)

4 hours ago, Stormkhan Cogg of Pavis said:

Conclusion.

Call of Cthulhu is based on the stories of HPL, one of which is "The Dunwich Horror". Three university professors versus a profane avatar of Yog-Sothoth! Physically, the challenge seems unbalanced but, heck, they can make "Library Rolls" and such. They do, one of which gains the knowledge - and spells - to remove the creature ... hopefully. The head boffin bags "The Powder of Ibn-Gazi" creation and "Dismiss Deity" spell! Cool! No. Not really. The lead-up research almost killed a very intelligent professor and the performance required three intelligent, and scared, people!

If you want to play Call of Cthulhu, keep in mind that magic happens ... but it comes at an awful cost. Far more than a few points off your character sheet!

Thank you for taking the time both to write all this and to read my opinion on it. I believe anyone who thinks magic in CoC works like this is misunderstanding the intention of the magic system. And furthermore, anyone who allows the rules and system to get in the way of their games need to reassess their priorities. When you use spells, don't let them EVER be like the D&D spells. Name them unpronounceable names, give them crazy components and weird problems to be solved, use moral dilemmas to up the horror, implement the stages of fear, never let you players know exactly what's going to happen, and always push the horror.

I'm glad your telling others about your experiences has helped you, and I love these blog posts, good stuff on here!

The secret's out...

Secrets unveiled in this short video.

Hmm, do you have a different link?

21 hours ago, g33k said:

Before the internet, there was "play by post" -- literal snail-mail letters, delivered via good ol' USPS.

Luddites FTW!

So you were able to finish a game of Call of Cthulhu this way?

42 minutes ago, Phil Hendry said:

Finally, this afternoon, after several weeks struggling to learn all sorts of (new to me) on-line technology so I can 'function' in the 'real virtual' world, I have got my group 'up and running' with a new RPG venture in the 'imaginary virtual world' - an introductory Call of Cthulhu scenario - using (relatively) old technology (one player is a bit of a technophobe - email is about as far as we can 'push' him - Zoom, or Roll20, or anything like that is out of the question for now at least).

I hope you can get playing Call of Cthulhu over E-mail to work... 

I think the answer will depend on how you are portraying war in game. The focus could be on tension and a sense of dread with moments of depraved violence and mass destruction, or there could be a surreal excitement gripping the masses as they root for one side or another like it's a sport. There could be shown a certain glory in the art of war, or the madness of willing battle. And that's just one side to it...

New video on war in Call of Cthulhu is up:)

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

I think people were being constructive and helpful.

You all definitely are, I've taken some time to read through the first book and had a couple other questions, but I just noticed the other forum titled RuneQuest. Would my questions be better suited to that sub forum or should I just ask em here?

2 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

Indeed, I think refereeing RuneQuest in Glronatha (see what I did there, I avoided the acronym…) is easier than other systems, in that the characters are so *vivid* and have such a strong backstory, that adventures just write themselves.

I love that RQ:G has such an emphasis on Character Backstory and how it drives adventurers. And yes looking though the slipcase is showing me just how complete the purchase actually was. I cannot believe how much content was included...

2 minutes ago, Leingod said:

Nah, you just have to not let yourself be intimidated or feel like you're beholden to the published material. One of the most important things to keep in mind is that Your Glorantha Will Vary (YGWV). Mining deep into the lore is something that you should do to get ideas for campaigns and storytelling (or just for personal enjoyment), so don't get too worked up if some detail comes up during play that you don't know the "correct" answer to. If you keep that in mind, you'll be fine.

Since that is how I've always run D&D and CoC previously, I will continue my honorable tradition of breaking all rules and making up lore which suits my purposes. If my players complain, I'm telling them this was all you fault for giving me the green light to stay rooted in my so-called transgressions:)

Also, wonderful, as I said in the video, I will be running for my siblings and cousins soon so I'm glad to hear I'll (hopefully) do a good job of it. 

38 minutes ago, g33k said:

<looks at Glorantha>

Yeah... I think  "some surprises for people to discover on their own"  is pretty much covered...

Going to take that to mean something similar to what I keep seeing on other sites, "It took me decades to gain even a basic understanding of Glorantha."

27 minutes ago, g33k said:

Trolls are, by and large, big and scary and dangerous.  It's easy to "not like" them!

Ernalda is the chief "Earth Queen" goddess; a key motto of her people is "There is always another way."

Orlanth is the "Storm" god, King of the Gods; one of HIS key mottoes is, "Violence is always an option."

They're a married couple.

The relationship is... tumultuous.

Thank you very much @g33k, I greatly appreciate you taking the time to help me out and explain some of this stuff to me:) And the rest of you awesome people as well, thank you!

Is Glorantha difficult to run? Like, do I need to play it before I can really run it? Or would my jumping right into running a game work?

1 minute ago, g33k said:

Yes.  Heroquesting/Runequesting is a longtime feature of Glorantha.  It is the main way you surpass human norms.

There was a period where Chaosium had separated "Runequest" as a (tm) from "Glorantha" (I guess a (c)?  but IP-law ain't my wheelhouse).

Greg Stafford, in a separate company called Issaries, Inc (Issaries being the god of Trade and Communication in Glorantha) teamed up with noted game-designer Robin Laws to create a new RPG for Glorantha.  It was titled Hero Wars.

 

Later, the company (Milton Bradley) who owned the (tm) (or (c), I dunno...) to the "HeroQuest" title let the rights lapse, so Greg registered HeroQuest and brought out the new edition of HW retitled as HeroQuest.  There's now HW, HQ1e, HQ2e, HQG (HeroQuest Glorantha), and "QuestWorlds" -- an SRD & OGL-ish 3e of the HQ engine).

 

 

I'll take your word for it. We certainly love acronyms in this industry don't we? Lovely ones for Call of Cthulhu and Horror or the Orient Express.

4 hours ago, HeartQuintessence said:

Heroquest related as they can be ported into Runequest easily.

To clarify, Heroquest is another system? But there are also "heroquests" in RuneQuest?

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

Don't worry, I've been playing in Glorantha since 1982, so more than twice as long as you've been around, sob ...

Although, there are people at BRP Central who have been playing for a lot longer.

There are lots of us who need to get a life.

It is my humble opinion that recreation is a key part of life, and when this recreation is spent exercising creativity with both friends and complete strangers (as opposed to playing mindless video games ect.) the recreation goes beyond simple play and into a new dimension of artistic expression.

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

Aaaaaargh!

Sigh, sorry. BRP was originally a cut-down version of RQ.

 

Hahaha.... Gotcha. BRP is based off of RuneQuest! It all makes sense now!

1 hour ago, HeartQuintessence said:

Welcome to the Tribe!

Also Glorantha is an addictive setting a friend hooked me and then I started tribe building. I also recommend the Red Cow Campaign setting (the coming Storm and the Eleven Lights or anything Heroquest related as they can be ported into Runequest easily.

I also highly recommend the Thunder Rebels and Storm Tribe books, as they reflect more gods and how the Orlanthi view themselves.. (and how the culture works. Like Orlanthi recognize more than 2 genders and multiple types of marriage and adventuring and community is a staple of Glorantha.

Thank you very much, I will look into these settings, modules, and books.

1 hour ago, HeartQuintessence said:

Don't like trolls? Then is it personal experience or cultural duty for you not to like them?

 

Do you love or hate the Lunar Empire?

What about the dichotomy of Ernalda "there is always another way", and Orlanthi "Violence is always an option" & " no one can make you do anything".

I have no clue what thou art saying, but I think I will in time:) I think you are giving me questions to ask myself about my character...

1 hour ago, HeartQuintessence said:

Glorantha is a rich world. Live in it.

As I am unlikely to be, as my parents call it, "getting a life" anytime soon... Might as well!

I understand now @Bill the barbarian... What you whispered in times gone by is true...

Just now, dumuzid said:

There's also the chaos god Thanatar, who gives their cultists magic to sever people's heads but preserve them 'alive' as sources of knowledge and magic

Inverted Mind Flayer logic, I like it:)

Just now, g33k said:

All you have to do is become a zombie...

Is that all? Well than I shall pack my bags at once and head off to see Gark. The Calm.

Just now, Leingod said:

Oh, there's a lot of it to go around. There's Brangbane the Ghoul King, who's haunted by the spirits of all the women he killed for their fingers to make a magic soup and now holds court in the Woods of the Dead. The troll berserkers of Zorak Zoran, god of hatred, have their bodies raised as skeletons so they can keep killing even after they've died. There's Vivamort, a Chaos god and the first vampire, etc.

Ahhh... Sounds wonderful:)

2 minutes ago, Leingod said:

If it helps, they're hardcore worshipers of the local god of war and death who've fought a centuries-long war against the creeping influence of the undead sorcerer Delecti and his army of the unquiet dead.

Damn it! As Deth, undeth and necromancy may be my favorite parts of fantasy settings... And those fool ducks think they can take it away from me? The bastards! I shall show them.