dumuzid

I would suggest that this is a distorted recollection of a likely role of the Third Eye Blue as itinerant sorcerer-smithss among the hsunchen tribes of the Eleven Beasts Alliance, before and during the Gbaji Wars.

This is almost precisely the approach we've taken in my campaign for a Lunar Tarshite 7M cultist who feels a personal affinity for She who Waits.

Another good reason to anticipate that book, I've got a player character in my campaign who'll benefit significantly from expanded cult rules regarding She Who Waits.

For the answer to that, we'd have to know more about the specifics of the end of the Northern Gbaji Wars. The rough course of events I've pieced together is that the hsunchen, the Eleven Beasts Alliance (and their presumed Aldryami allies), were in retreat in Fronela, having suffered defeat at the hands of settlers coming from both east and west: Malkioni in the west, Lightbringer-worshiping theistic colonists in the east (the ancestors of modern Charg, iirc). The pressure from the west was more acute over time, which led the Eleven Beasts to seek peace with and support from the eastern theists, in exchange for allowing Lightbringer missionaries into their territory and some adoption of the theistic cults. This gave them access to support like the magic of Nysalor's riddlers and Telmori wolf warriors, who at that point enjoyed the full benefits of Nysalor's blessing without the downside of spending a day each week in maddened beast-form. The conflict continued to escalate as each side gained Heroic leadership: the mysterious figure Varganthar the Unconquerable, the Blue Knight, rises to become the warleader of the Eleven Beasts, while Talor the Laughing Warrior arrives from the south to champion the Malkioni. Talor kills Varganthar but is himself slain; Harmast Barefoot, disillusioned with Arkat's crusade in the south, undertakes his Second Lightbringers Quest and returns from the Underworld with Talor, who had been dead for two years by then, if memory serves. Between them, Harmast and Talor resolve what remains of the Northern Gbaji War and lead a combined host of the Fronelan peoples south to open a second front in the final assault on Dorastor. When Talor returns from Dorastor he becomes the founding king of the first Kingdom of Loskalm. No source I'm familiar with gives a blow-by-blow account of the Fronelan front of the Gbaji Wars, so I can't give you an exact chronology for all that. The story, as presented in the Guide, leaves some very intriguing questions unanswered, like: what exactly happened on Harmast's 2nd LBQ?; what happened while Talor was dead, and immediately after he returned, that allowed him to rally together the disparate Fronelan factions for a united struggle in Dorastor? I think the answer to the question of 'Why isn't there more evidence of Malkioni settlement on the Fronelan grasslands?' is to be found here, specifically in the events that brought Talor back to life. Given the context and mythic resonances in play, I think an essential element of Harmast's 2nd LBQ was bringing about a rapprochement between Talor and Varganthar in the Underworld, so that when Talor returned it was with the blessing and obligation to ensure the end of the war was not also the end of the Fronelan hsunchen. Given the story up to this point, we could be forgiven for expecting that after the founding of Loskalm we'd see a wave of Malkioni colonization north of the Ozur Sound and Janube, pushing out or conquering the defeated hsunchen to make room for agrarian development, but such a thing never really manifests. The Hsunchen societies of Fronela retain their control of vast territories, with the Uncolings roaming both the deforested lands and the remnants of the Greenwood in their own Deerwood. I think the reason for the apparent end of the aggressive colonization that characterized Fronelan Malkioni in the First Age is that down in Hell, Varganthar and Talor agreed to put a stop to it. I think prohibitions against the sort of slave-making and god-breaking the Brithini and other Malkioni engaged in during their wars with the Eleven Beasts in the First Age may be woven into the founding magic of Loskalm itself, such that a King of Loskalm who engages in such things or allows the Akemi to do so might lose the Rightness of their caste, among other terrible repercussions. Note that when the Middle Sea Empire came, rather than claim the crown of Loskalm for themselves the Seshnelans and Jrusteli instead founded new principalities like Frontem, whose founding basis could be whatever the God Learners intended, and when the Empire finally fell in Fronela it was to a coalition of all the Fronelan peoples, much like Harmast and Talor's last crusade.

I'd attribute it to a similar cause, but different perpetrators: the Brithini of Akem, possibly with the assistance of mostali contractors from Nida. Deforestation efforts as part of their Dawn Age settler-colonial project to subordinate the Fronelan landscape and hsunchen, which ultimately spiraled into its own front of the Gbaji Wars. Circa 1620 there are still live, strong forests right up to the edge of the Glacier, like Winterwood and Rathorela. Looking at the map, I'd say the forests are retreating from the Malkioni, not the ice.

Are there any other Gloranthan cults that function this way? Is the Seven Mothers model how one would mechanically render, say, the cult system of the Deneron Council in Pelanda?

If I were running the game, I'd say that Spirit Combat can be used against anything with MP.

I agree with @French Desperate WindChild, I don't see it as an issue as such because of the sheer amount of POW you'd need to sacrifice to have multiple cults at, say, 8 RP or higher under the current rules. POW gets so much scarcer once a character gets near their species max, unless they're investing in all these rune cults while keeping their personal POW around 10 it'll take some while to recover the POW sacrificed to empower themselves deeply in a new cult--having a POW pruned down in that way makes them vulnerable in any contest with another magician, which seems like a perfectly reasonable balancing mechanic to me.

There has also been a Black Moon, usually called Gerra. She was the moon in the Darkness, after the Blue Moon was slain (by the Dara Happan emperor Lukarius, by Orlanth--accounts differ as to the perpetrator). She was used as a scapegoat by the Dara Happans while they sheltered under the Dome of Manarlavus, and made to suffer for ills that were not her fault. Within the Lunar Way she is the goddess of suffering, associated with the Third Wane when Sheng Seleris brought the empire to its knees. She is honored with self-sacrificial rites at her Black Pyramid, where her worshipers mutilate themselves and offer what they cut off to her. The climactic events of a major sacrifice at the Black Pyramid are unforgettable.

Okay, thank you to everyone who's weighed in so far. We seem to have two basic currents here: a fairly unified tactical answer to how shamans compete with sophisticated sorcery (speed and flexibility of spirit magic and animism vs. sorcery's long windup; the element of surprise and harassing, hit-and-run tactics); and multiple, often mutually inclusive, operational and strategic answers (alliances with greater spirits, the soul winds, meddling in foreign rites through spirit diplomacy, etc.). What has me curious right now is the latter, the higher order aspects of animist magic the Uncolings could bring to bear. @Joerg asked, "What powerful spirits are at the beck and call of the Uncoling shamans?" and given the fraught history of Fronela's hsunchen peoples, this is a question worth investigating. First, the map. Let's take a look at the place. This, I propose, is the rough ranging area of the Uncolings circa 1627, the current timeframe of my campaign. To the north is the Glacier, to the south are Akem and Loskalm, to the west are the rather frightful aldryami of the Winterwood. I expect they used to be able to range freely much further east, as far as Upriver and Rathorela (and really, who wouldn't like to visit Zoria if they can?), but the Kingdom of War troubles all that now. Regarding the significant sites noted here: Porent is the sacred center of the Uncolings, and its population swells to the size of a massive city by Gloranthan standards during major sacred events; Oral-Ta is a peculiar ruin inhabited by 'creatures like lead centipedes' which are rumored to be the tortured souls of First Age trolls in the guide; the area under the Ban on that map covers the ancient homeland of the Third Eye Blue people, and in my campaign left the Ban after Sacred Time, 1626; the string of eastern settlements from Ainsford to Finho was all sacked and depopulated by the Kingdom of War between 1623 and 1626 in my campaign's Glorantha. Now looking to the land and its spirits, what do we have here? The plateau north of Finho with its hills and lake probably have interesting spirits, being such dominant features in an otherwise broad, flat land, but they now lie on the marches of the Kingdom of War. The Kingdom in my Glorantha supports its system of slavery with both theistic and sorcerous magical compulsion--what measures might the Uncolings take to keep the hell-priests to the east from enslaving the spirits of the land they have existing relationships with? The north is a source of dangerous power. Things called off the Glacier will always have greater affinity for the trolls, and I expect their bargains come with making a little more dark and cold in the Uncolings' lives, so dangerous allies but potentially quite fearsome. Whatever's going on at Oral-Ta probably yields darkness and/or Underworld spirits as well. We have a second weird little knot of hills with no explication in the Guide that I noted north of Oral-Ta, the spirit ecology there is terra incognita as far as I know. Two conspicuous lakes, one connected to a major river system and the other seemingly disconnected. There's the Deerwood, and the interesting question of just how closely the Uncolings are tied to the otherwise reclusive Winterwood aldryami. The one-sentence description of the Deerwood in the Guide only says it's good hunting for the Uncolings, no mention of Aldryami--I wonder under what terms the Uncolings gained control of this wood with a major elfwood contiguous to it, and how much they know about Winterwood's role in the pending Reforesting. The Maidstone Mountains are elf and weird archer country. Finally, we have the feature that really sets the Uncolings apart from, say, the Praxians: the great, living body of the plains stretching north, east and west around Porent. Unlike the blasted lands of Prax, the land goddesses here seem to be in fine health despite the Syndic's Ban. I'm sure the Uncoling shamans have existing arrangements to call up better feed for their herds with the spirits of their grazing lands. How could the Uncolings mobilize the enormous spiritual power of their living taiga and tundra?

Huh, using the Spirit Combat skill in a context other than specifically, well, Spirit Combat, is not an approach I'd considered, but I like it a lot.

IMG there's at least one notable Man-and-a-Half Pamalt shaman-priest wandering the Wastes who can provide that kind of service. He's also pretty generous with his specially treated hazia, in the right company. I'd expect Pamalt-style cremation to be pretty prevalent among the Men-and-a-Half, depending on cult.

Yeah, I pretty much just riff off the principles provided in Arcane Lore when it comes to heroquesting, and will likely continue to do so until something official comes down the pipe.

My campaign is now in contact with the Uncoling reindeer hsunchen of Fronela. The Guide to Glorantha describes the shamans of the Uncolings as some of the most powerful magicians in all of Glorantha, able to hold their ground before zzaburi of Loskalm and Sogalotha Mambrola. My challenge, from the position of running of running the game, is: how do I portray this functionally. From seeing and using it in play, sorcery packs an enormous punch when it goes off successfully, and unless there's ways for multiple shamans to pool their power I have a hard time seeing how they hold out against the Malkioni outside of ambush and surprise conditions where the Malkioni zzaburi don't have the time or ready implements to fully 'power up' their magic. What should be the mechanical and practical hallmarks of sophisticated, powerful animist magic, on the scale the Uncoling shamans are suggested to wield in the Guide? What sorts of magical effects can the Uncolings derive from their mass seasonal gatherings at sacred Porent? How do I run them at a level where they can believably stand up to the Malkioni to the south and the Kingdom of War to the east? Note, this isn't a call to discuss tactics for countering sorcery as such--I'm aware of several vulnerabilities that wizard-foes of all stripes can take advantage of (my preferred method is having dozens of trollkin slingers pelt the sorcerer with bolgs)--it's about exploring ways shamanism could compete with sorcery on an even footing, as Uncoling shamanism is described as doing, and as presumably the Pralori shamans manage in Maniria. So, thoughts?

Command (Human) magic on ritually prepared subjects can accomplish frightful things, as the whole history of Fonrit shows.

IMG there's a surviving shamanic component to Heler worship in the urban heart of Nochet, revolving around the Tarena Cloudmother subcult.

Babs mated with the likes of Eurmal in the Darkness

Hello all, I'm on the lookout for myths involving long sea voyages, involving actual ships. It's a bit of a heroquesting lacuna, what with most of our available sources being focused on decidedly non-maritime societies like the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass and the Lunar Empire. Off the top of my head I can think of the voyages of Artmal, after he and his children descended from the moon but before they settled Veldarahab in Pamaltela, and potentially the Westfaring, though I don't know that the Lightbringers used an actual boat to reach the Gate of Dusk. Presumably there's a whole trove of this sort of lore among the Waertagi, but it's never seen print to my knowledge. Other than events that happened within Time (Tanian's Victory, the voyages of Dormal) I'm a little stumped. Do relevant stories occur to anyone else?

Best thing for increasing shaman power, from learning new magic to increasing POW over time to simply being more effective in combat situations, is Spirit Combat. Win a spirit combat encounter and you've got your POW gain roll for the season. Win it against a spirit and you can learn some of its Spirit Magic, or use other magic to bind it into a suitably enchanted item. Assistant Shamans get a flat bonus to Spirit Combat, and it only gets better with shamanhood. Their main limitation is that only discorporate entities can initiate spirit combat, which makes assistants more defensive spirit combatants unless they have the Discorporate rune spell. With shamanhood the shaman can discorporate reliably, without spending rune points, and engage in aggressive spirit combat against physical opponents. The shaman player character in my campaign has the +Spirit Combat Damage vs. Spirits shamanic ability, and so has a flat bonus of something like +6 damage vs. spirit opponents in Spirit Combat.

I'm surprised to see Only Old One in that discussion, I'd read his immortality as more like Cragspider's, but I suppose this another way to interpret things like the description of him being dismembered by Chaos demons and coming back in 10,000 Goddesses.

there was probably a wide variety of intelligent animal peoples under the beneficent reign of Genert and the baboons, and were lost with the Earthfall and the wasting of the Garden you can probably still see the temple stupas of the anteater people cities if you ride to the right place on the chaparral, and look with the right sort of eyes at the right time

they were cursed by Yelm to lose the power of flight for siding with Water during the Gods War

Or they helped Kyger Litor after they lost their powers, using the skills and arts they learned to make up for the loss of their native magic. Kyger Litor probably needed some significant first aid after she defeated and skinned Thed.

And here's an update to the illustrated cast roster, courtesy of the player of Arana Twice-Born: Notable additions to the player characters: 1) The fancy hat Potov picked up to pass himself off as a 'sort of' zzaburi before the group entered western Genertela 2) Kakti's elf bow, which has not yet gained a CHA of its own but it's on its way 3) The gauzy shawl Arana obtained through portraying Helera in a Gods World heroquest: she brought back some of the cloud-clothing Helera wore 4) The visually clashing but, to uz sensibilities, immaculately stylish clothing Zakrag obtained as a gift from the baroness of Fralos Notable additions to the NPCs: 1) The first mate of the Starfarer, Sephara, a Marazi amazon who has borne three children to her divine husband: two daughters growing up on Trowjang with her extended family, and a demon who dwells in his father's house. Her teeth are capped or replaced by golden fangs made from melted-down Teshnan baubles and enchanted to have the bite of bronze. 2) Jun To, a true rarity: a human rune priest of Magasta, an ascetic from the East Isles who serves as the primary expert on all things oceanic for the Starfarer crew. He was treated with great respect by the triolini taking tolls on the way into the Choralinthor, and despite his strong Death rune is the only character on the roster so far who never carries a weapon.

I've looked into this chain of events as closely as the documents permit to run heroquests of some of the relevant myths, and as best I can reconstruct Artmal was born at some point in the mid-late Golden Age, saves Tolat/Shargash in his battle with Umath, encounters and woos his spouse Cathora, ascended with her to the body of his mother, and descended during the early Storm Age after Cathora bears him three hundred children and they form the Three Hundred Families, possibly by finding their own spouses on Earth like their father. At some point after the return to Earth, probably in Pamaltela, Yeetai the First Emperor saves Artmal and gains his descendant of the Red Sword, and this is the sword that is stolen by, given to, or perhaps creates an offspring for the Zaranistangi royals later in the Storm Age. That latter hand-off is connected with Artmal's defeat by Baraku/Orlanth, and in designing a heroquest for the myth I placed the act after Artmal's dismemberment, as the culmination of the chain of events that turns back the Storm invasion and positions Jarkaru, the future Indigo Conqueror, as Artmali Emperor. Note: I've interpreted the Artmali imperial title before Jarkaru as the 'Emperor of the Artmali People,' rather than the 'Emperor of the Artmali Empire' per se, in the same sense that Louis Philippe of the July Monarchy claimed to be 'King of the French' as opposed to the Bourbon title of 'King of France'. This next bit is a little flimsier, but I hypothesize an early connection between Artmal and Heler/a, based on the repeated descriptions of Artmal and his posterity traveling in ships made of cloud, or clouds shaped like ships. The Artmali may have lost this power when Artmal was dismembered, leading Jarkaru to establish a more traditional surface navy, the Aquamarine Armada, in the aftermath of the Storm invasion. Edit: I have had a devil of a time reconstructing the history of Teshnos before the God Learner conquest and the founding of Eest. Such a paucity of sources, and those mostly contradictory!