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Taking this away from the Barbarian Town thread. I found I had to reconsider the Pol Joni story from the depiction of the incident in King of Dragon Pass (which has Derik as a member of your clan, and the loss of his parents as a result of Jaldon's Great Raid - which, reading the Tarsh section of CHDP, cannot have been the case, since Jaldon is described as a mercenary who betrayed his Tarshite patron when Derik already was part of Yanasdros entourage, and started his great raid after having visited Tarsh. It isn't quite clear whether this happened before or after Yanasdros took over from his father. It is clear, however, that Derik was a personal retainer of Yanasdros before Yanasdros became king, since he participated in the raid of the sacred Grazer herd which led to Ovartien's abdication in 1395. (That would mean that Derik was around 120 at the battle of Denzis Water. Given a comparable age of Hofstaring when he was drawn to Hell, not impossible.) Derik's victory over Jaldon seems to have altered his ambition, away from personal revenge towards a lasting solution for the Praxian border region. This would make sense if Jaldon had been the leader of the raid in which Derik's parents were killed. It is quite possible that the final duel between Derik and Jaldon was a high stakes, other side duel where Derik robbed Jaldon of something significant - possibly his khan heritage? It took the intervention of Argrath White Bull to reawaken Jaldon, and when he did, the personal followers of Jaldon were the very clans of the Pol Joni, and their magicians using the same techniques as the Sartar Magical Union. Jaldon had a lot of precedence to give to Derik. Jaldon proved that you didn't have to ride a recognized Praxian beast in order to be a khan of khans. He had the magic to unite riders from the most diverse Beast Rider background to follow his military leadership, which may be how Derik managed to attract all those Praxian exiles despite the nasty demand that they stop riding their ancestral herd beasts, and ride horses instead. And I do wonder whether Derik really managed to make all of them give up their original mounts in the first generation of the Pol Joni, even more so in light of the fact that the Sartarites use Praxian mounts in sufficiently high numbers that the sample mounted warrior in HQG is riding a sable. Are Praxian beasts permittable as secondary mounts for the Pol Joni? You wouldn't ride them when attending a tribal moot, but you might very well shift back to that trusty old bison when visiting an oasis altar incognito. Keeping a herd of raided beasts is very Praxian. I wonder about Derik's epithet Furman. I sort of doubt that he flayed fallen Praxian enemies, or that their however hairy skin might have been regarded as fur. The only furred Praxians are the Baboons, and they appear to coexist with the Pol Joni in western Prax with only the usual problems between a possession-less hunter gatherer community and a culture valuing possession. Derik started out hating the Praxians, and especially sable riders, with a hot and destructive passion. Did he wear a ball of tails so big that he could wear it as a cape? The first historical map in the Guide showing Pol Joni shows them as part of the Quivini marches outside of Yanasdros' kingdom of Tarsh proper, around 1440, unless this is meant to indicate that Derik was still considered a Tarshite vassal whose job it was to protect the Tarshite tribes in the Far Point and the Bush Range from Praxian and Quivini raids. Derik clearly never succumbed to the Seleric Empire. The presence of Seleric lieutenants might have been a factor in creating enough exiles to join the Pol Joni, even though that meant to defect one horse-tainted side for another, with even greater personal exposure to the stink of horses (rather than the sweet perfume of the tribal herd beasts). Or might it have been Seleric followers who fell in disgrace during prolonged absence of Seleric authority figures who were cast out of the tribes, and who found refuge with Derik? But how much are they part of the covenant? Worship of Eiritha in her role as land goddess and nurturer of the (cattle) herds makes sense even without being part of the covenant, and if the price for that is the ritual of butchery and the Peaceful Cut, then it makes sense to follow that practice, even if you were born as a Grazer or as a Heortling. I imagine the Waha cult to have come from the considerable influx of exiles rather than from Derik's personal effort to establish himself as a khan. Ignoring the "not born here, from a lineage of khans" problem, going into the Devils March to slay a chaotic horror wouldn't have been a deed of note for a warrior as accomplished as Derik. Wrestling this from Jaldon might have been Derik's window of opportunity. Given the fact that Jaldon is named a mystic, I have a lingering suspicion that Jaldon might have performed something resembling utuma in that combat, taking possession of Derik. The Pure Horse folk didn't have any cattle herds (making their herds useless to the Praxians), but neither had they any problem with their horses not breeding true. Joraz Kyrem's big feat of creating the War Zebra didn't spread beyond the Pavis tribe of horse folk, leaving the majority of Pure Horse Folk still riding their hyaloring beasts. The Opili-breed cattle were very acceptable to Eiritha, and seem to have responded well to the Peaceful Cut and butchery rites. We don't know when and how the former horse warlords of Dara Happa acquired their bovine stock after Argentium Thri'ile. There may very well have been similar heroics for magical cattle as practiced among the Red Cow clan of the Cinsina (and possibly the Black Spear clan of the Colymar) among the Pentans after Hyaloring, Hirenmador and Veshtargos fusioned into a single ethnic whole. If the Lenshi were expelled to Pent, too, they might have brought a Tawari or Bisosae bull breed with them. not pure, or worshipers of the Prax and Paps deities. We do know that they include Waha and Eiritha worshippers, and the practice of ancestor worship is common for all humans in Genertela. The Praxians don't mind great numbers of worshippers of non-Praxian deities, like Yelmalio, among themselves. So what is it that they criticize about the Pol Joni religious practices? That Waha isn't their path to chieftain- and khan-hood? Trade passed between them. Do the Praxian clans have trade officers like the Quivini, or do they rely on Issaries cultists from Pavis, the Quivini or Kethaela, similar to Biturian? The bickering tribes of the plains include other foreigners like the Men-and-a-half, the Basmoli, and to some extent the Sun Domers of Mo Baustra, too. They included the Pure Horse Folk for more than 630 years (the battle of Denzis Water in 620 was . Interesting. The Heortling neighbors of the Praxians have always been the Orgovaltes, the other (presumably Hyaloring) rider tribe of the Vingkotlings and later the Heortlings. Before the ancient Praxian culture was superseded by Waha's Beast Rider culture, that horse relationship didn't hurt anyone. Hyalor worshipped Yamsur, one of the deities of Genert's Garden. The sons of Storm Bull may have grunted derisively, but whatever enmity there may have been, it wasn't enough to break the peace of Genert or Tada. Both Waha and King Heort were active in the earliest Gray Age. I have no idea whether Waha shares the I Fought We Won myth with Heort and Ezkankekko (and a few other leaders, possibly including Aram ya Udram and a green elf from around Tallseed Forest). His Beast Riders weren't part of the Unity Council, anyway, and while they were among the first contacts of the Lightbringers after the Dawn, I would assume that contact may have been made already before the Dawn, in the Gray/Silver Age. Cults of Prax still names Humakt as an Invader Cult and gives a single digit date for its arrival. Little Brother may have been part of the Bison tribe cults before the Dawn, but there would have been only little response before Orlanth and the other deities re-emerged at the Dawn. When you say more Theyalan, do you mean that the beast riders used Hantrafali sacrifice rather than shamanic spirit cults for the Lightbringer Cults of Prax?