Spoiler Maps! Based on the GPC and Others

[Morien]

4 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Still, it opens the door for all sorts of Man in the Iron Mask type of stories. 

Heh, I was just writing my thoughts on that. 🙂

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, Morien said:

 

Another Guinevere storyline I dislike is Mordred marrying her (or trying to) after she is a convicted adulteress. But having him marry the wronged, real Guinevere might work very nicely in this twist.

Gwenhwyfach (who corresponds to the False Guinevere) is Mordred's wife in Welsh accounts, and according to the Triads, engineered the downfall of her sister and Mordred's usurpation. She's depicted clearly as a villain.

[Morien]

Yes. I was referring more to the default Malory inspired GPC where the False Guinevere, if she even shows up, is already dead and Mordred tries to marry his adulterous, past-childbeating age and childless, mother-in-law. It is the latter that doesn't make sense to me.

Young Mordred marrying an acknowledged half-sister of his uncle's wife makes more sense, although we'd still have some issues of age due to Mordred being half a generation younger than Guinevere in GPC. Less of a problem when Mordred is just Arthur's nephew...

[jeffjerwin]

33 minutes ago, Morien said:

Yes. I was referring more to the default Malory inspired GPC where the False Guinevere, if she even shows up, is already dead and Mordred tries to marry his adulterous, past-childbeating age and childless, mother-in-law. It is the latter that doesn't make sense to me.

Young Mordred marrying an acknowledged half-sister of his uncle's wife makes more sense, although we'd still have some issues of age due to Mordred being half a generation younger than Guinevere in GPC. Less of a problem when Mordred is just Arthur's nephew...

Yep. Of course if Mordred is motivated by the desire to 'be' and 'best' his father at the same time the Oedipal thing might be driving him.

[Atgxtg]

22 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Yep. Of course if Mordred is motivated by the desire to 'be' and 'best' his father at the same time the Oedipal thing might be driving him.

Not to mention a desire to further legitimize his claim to the throne. Marrying the widow of the old King and all. 

Or, for those who want a less evil Mordred, he could have been thinking of protecting her, but that would be a very forgiving interpretation.

Or course it could just come down to her still having an APP of 28 or so, and being more of a step mom in relation to him.

 

[Morien]

25 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Not to mention a desire to further legitimize his claim to the throne. Marrying the widow of the old King and all. 

That's kinda my point... Guinevere is an adulterous Queen. Sure, Arthur takes him back, but that was forgiveness, not wiping the slate clean. Besides, her lover is none other than the man who has already killed three of Mordred's four brothers, two of them while they were unarmed and unarmored, and at least ten of their closest allies. Whereas Mordred himself is Arthur's acknowledged bastard, his only son and heir.

Which by the way means that his rebellion makes even less sense. All he needs to do is to wait for the old man to drop dead or get killed by Lancelot, and he will have it all. Grr. The troubles you get from gobbling together disparate sources! (In HRB, Mordred's rebellion makes much more sense.)

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, Morien said:

That's kinda my point... Guinevere is an adulterous Queen. Sure, Arthur takes him back, but that was forgiveness, not wiping the slate clean. Besides, her lover is none other than the man who has already killed three of Mordred's four brothers, two of them while they were unarmed and unarmored, and at least ten of their closest allies. Whereas Mordred himself is Arthur's acknowledged bastard, his only son and heir.

Which by the way means that his rebellion makes even less sense. All he needs to do is to wait for the old man to drop dead or get killed by Lancelot, and he will have it all. Grr. The troubles you get from gobbling together disparate sources! (In HRB, Mordred's rebellion makes much more sense.)

In the Morte (the French source Malory relied on for part of the ending) Mordred and his brothers hate Lancelot with a passion. By 'taking possession' of his lover (and thus subjecting her to legal violence) he humiliates Lancelot further (and Arthur, but that's secondary). Mordred could have thought his father was dead already, I suppose, and realized that Lancelot would be his main threat in his father's absence, but by forcing Guinevere to marry him Lancelot would be forced to come to Britain and fight a war against Mordred at a disadvantage.

[Morien]

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

In the Morte (the French source Malory relied on for part of the ending) Mordred and his brothers hate Lancelot with a passion. By 'taking possession' of his lover (and thus subjecting her to legal violence) he humiliates Lancelot further (and Arthur, but that's secondary). Mordred could have thought his father was dead already, I suppose, and realized that Lancelot would be his main threat in his father's absence, but by forcing Guinevere to marry him Lancelot would be forced to come to Britain and fight a war against Mordred at a disadvantage.

OK yeah, vengeance, hatred and strategy to get Lancelot to do something stupid I can buy. Legitimacy by marrying his own, dishonored and adulterous stepmother (a huge no-no by medieval consanguinity rules, tantamount to being a literal MF), further hanging a huge sign on his on incestuous beginnings... Nope, that is the part that I cannot accept.

[jeffjerwin]

15 minutes ago, Morien said:

OK yeah, vengeance, hatred and strategy to get Lancelot to do something stupid I can buy. Legitimacy by marrying his own, dishonored and adulterous stepmother (a huge no-no by medieval consanguinity rules, tantamount to being a literal MF), further hanging a huge sign on his on incestuous beginnings... Nope, that is the part that I cannot accept.

Mordred is supposed to be an object lesson for why these things are bad. You're thinking of him as a modern fictional character, rather than a symbolic figure from a legend. Incest is a major preoccupation of religious writers and storytellers at the time (as the most outrageous of iniquities that pagans and evil kings did - compare Vortigern and Maelgwn), and the consanguinity rules are consistently justified because they were a part of ecclesiastical power, but they also reinforce norms against exposure of infants. There's also a whole cohort of folkloric kings who wish to imprison and molest their daughters or who marry their mothers. But these are also things that happen in reality, so in a way it's still acceptable to have the symbolic Mordred and combine him with a perverse modern interpretation.

[Morien]

3 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

You're thinking of him as a modern fictional character, rather than a symbolic figure from a legend.

Yes, because in my campaign, he is a living, breathing human, not a literary object lesson. In short, his motivation cannot be: 'Oh, I am doing this, because it is the most heinous thing that a writer can think of, and I am supposed to be the most heinous being that ever lived.' I am not approaching this from literary criticism, but from GMing side of things.

[jeffjerwin]

49 minutes ago, Morien said:

Yes, because in my campaign, he is a living, breathing human, not a literary object lesson. In short, his motivation cannot be: 'Oh, I am doing this, because it is the most heinous thing that a writer can think of, and I am supposed to be the most heinous being that ever lived.' I am not approaching this from literary criticism, but from GMing side of things.

Yes, and it's good that you do so. KAP sits astride both the 'real' (roleplaying with modern humans) and the the literary (myth, really). Mordred's a problem.

[Atgxtg]

8 hours ago, Morien said:

That's kinda my point... Guinevere is an adulterous Queen. Sure, Arthur takes him back, but that was forgiveness, not wiping the slate clean. Besides, her lover is none other than the man who has already killed three of Mordred's four brothers, two of them while they were unarmed and unarmored, and at least ten of their closest allies. Whereas Mordred himself is Arthur's acknowledged bastard, his only son and heir.

Yeah but by pre-Feudal and even feudal society marrying the widow of the King adds legitimacy to the claim, even if she wasn't entirely faithful.

8 hours ago, Morien said:

Which by the way means that his rebellion makes even less sense. All he needs to do is to wait for the old man to drop dead or get killed by Lancelot, and he will have it all. Grr. The troubles you get from gobbling together disparate sources! (In HRB, Mordred's rebellion makes much more sense.)

Yup. I kinda like the idea that rather than some sort of hoax to steal the throne Mordred actually believes that Arthur is dead. It makes much more sense. He fiugre Lance killed him and that he is the next in line. Then his mistakes Arthurs returning force for new invaders and, once he realizes what happened, he tries to back out of it then everything goes wrong.

 

Of coruse if you go with the old Welsh soruces where the two Gwens are the cause of it all, then he is more or less caught up in the events.

[creativehum]

19 hours ago, Morien said:

All he needs to do is to wait for the old man to drop dead or get killed by Lancelot, and he will have it all. Grr.

I find this an odd thing to get hung up on. 

Mordred wants to be King now. (Some people are like that.)

Why wait for his father to die? What if he himself dies first? What if Arthur lives another decade or more? What if Lancelot fails? (I get the feeling Mordred wants to get into the action himself.)

Mordred doesn't have to be a "object lesson" to be selfish, vindictive, and perverse. People like this exist in real life. That he is extreme makes him a bigger than life villain. But he has qualities that I can identify in people ruling countries right now.

I don't see the issue as Malory's Mordred being modern or not, but rather whether he is "reasonable" or "smart" in the ways some people on this forum measure reasonable or smart. But Le Morte D'Arthur isn't driven by characters that are reasonable or smart.

Edited January 24, 2020 by creativehum

[Morien]

18 minutes ago, creativehum said:

I find this an odd thing to get hung up on. 

Mordred wants to be King now. (Some people are like that.)

Mordred is already the Regent while Arthur and Gawaine are off fighting Lancelot. He is the de facto King. So what does he gain from rebelling?

A.) The whole thing about being the legitimate heir goes out the window, since now him be the traitor. This also tends to put some people off, who would have been happy to support him otherwise.

B.) Arthur and his army comes back to beat him.

C.) Even if he wins against Arthur (and possibly gets himself the title of patricide), he still has to deal with Lancelot and Lancelot's army. You know, the Greatest Knight Living?

Whereas if he just cools his heels for a year or two, the chances are that Arthur kills Lancelot or vice versa, taking one main opponent off the table. Furthermore, those armies will bleed one another rather than fighting Mordred, making it more likely that he will win in the end. Mordred is supposed to be smart.

That is why in our campaign, I favor the 'miscomminication': Mordred got word that Lancelot had won a great victory, Arthur and Gawaine were dead and their army smashed. Mordred claims the crown and rallies support. When the truth is revealed, he tries to sort things out at Camlann, but a snake and a drawn sword completes the tragedy.

But if Mordred is a power-hungry, sadistic maniac in your campaign, go for it!

[creativehum]

5 minutes ago, Morien said:

Whereas if he just cools his heels for a year or two,

Some people can't... they really can't.

As for smart... I have my own thoughts about "smart." And one of them is a person can be smart in one way or another... but a terrible idiot in other ways. I see it around me every day. That Mordred is smart in some ways I completely buy. That he is perverse and corrupted in other ways I don't think can be avoided if one is using Le Morte D"Arthur as one's springboard for the tale.

[Username]

I have to say, I always thought it was weird that Mordred marries Guinevere while Arthur's away or attempts to. I didn't really see much benefit for him. So, that makes the miscommunication theory a little better for me. Marrying a widow of the old king is more sensible.

However, I also don't find it too impossible for Mordred to overthrow his father while he is overseas in France. Mordred is getting old too. And he doesn't have the glory Arthur does. So age is catching up to him seemingly faster than the much older King. Further, there's considerable difficulties in medieval times with launching overseas expeditions leading me to think that Mordred would believe he had a significant advantage to stop either army when they cross the channel. Still I don't see how a compeyent man would like those odds. Well, I guess I don't have much of an opinion on this one either way.

Anyways, I've put together a political map of Arthur's realm in 544. I kept it in the style the earlier political maps for continuity sake. It has insets for Ireland and France. To distinguish Arthur's greater realm and allies from Logres, I put a light green dotted outline around the greater Empire. Which I called the Empire of Britannia. He's proclaimed Imperator when crowned and Emperor of Rome, so it seemed like a good fit.

I'm prepared for border changes, if you notice any let me know. if there's any questions about the naming, I'd also be interested in hearing alternative ideas. To keep it stylistically in line with 17th century sources, I don't really have a lot of options with color palette or markup schemes. So, I made the kingdoms that have been Incorporated more closely to Malahaut and Logres look like counties, but have their name with kingdom in front.

I think I'm going to do the county maps in 485, except the Hantonne/Wessex map. I'm going to do that one post-518 represent the county as Royal demesne. 

Britain Political Map 544 compressed.pdf

[Atgxtg]

On 1/24/2020 at 12:41 PM, creativehum said:

Some people can't... they really can't.

Except that he did so for so long already. 

22 hours ago, Username said:

I have to say, I always thought it was weird that Mordred marries Guinevere while Arthur's away or attempts to. I didn't really see much benefit for him. So, that makes the miscommunication theory a little better for me. Marrying a widow of the old king is more sensible.

I agree although...

22 hours ago, Username said:

However, I also don't find it too impossible for Mordred to overthrow his father while he is overseas in France. Mordred is getting old too. And he doesn't have the glory Arthur does. So age is catching up to him seemingly faster than the much older King. Further, there's considerable difficulties in medieval times with launching overseas expeditions leading me to think that Mordred would believe he had a significant advantage to stop either army when they cross the channel. Still I don't see how a compeyent man would like those odds. Well, I guess I don't have much of an opinion on this one either way.

Plus he might have thought that Lancelot would finish him off. It's not a bad assumption either. Lance could have done it. He was either invincible or nearly so, depending on what sources you use, and there are several times when Arthur comes across him on the battlefield and Lance refuses to fight him. If it were not for that, it was quite likely that Lance would have killed Arthur in battle, or taken him prisoner. Either of which would have opened the way for Mordred.

There are also some sources that claim that Arthur was supposed to pass on the throne to Mordred previously but delayed from doing so. These mostly paint Arthur in a bad light, but Malory did draw on multiple sources. 

My standard method for such situations is to just muddy the water and leave most of the details unknown. There is very little in Le Morte to prove if Morded jumped the gun or was misinformed. Yes, Malory claims that Mordred faked it, but that isn't something the PKs are likely to find out about. I'll just run them though the stuff they see and find out about, and let them draw their own conclusions (and hear rumors) after events are set into motion.

 

[jeffjerwin]

22 hours ago, Username said:

 

Britain Political Map 544 compressed.pdf 5.62 MB · 6 downloads

'Lancashire' exists and is in the hands of Gareth by this date.

Cameliard is independent of Logres. Guinevere rules it on her own, through stewards.

Nantes is in the hands of the Duke of Brittany (Tristram killed its ruler for him).

Surluse is a separate kingdom from Gorre.

You may want to note the realms granted by Lancelot to his followers in the Downfall in the 560s, as these were former parts of Arthur's empire, taken during the war against Claudas in the 530s.

Joyeuse Garde seems to be separate from Garloth as Lancelot's personal domain. It's southern Northumberland. Also you have Lyonesse missing.

 

[Username]

10 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Cameliard is independent of Logres. Guinevere rules it on her own, through stewards.

I put it together with Logres to symbolize their close relationship. Despite Guinevere ruling it separately, it doesn't seem as though she'd administrate it separately. Still, that's why I placed it as a Kingdom instead of the same as the other counties. Do you think it would be better represented as entirely separate?

10 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Lancashire' exists and is in the hands of Gareth by this date.

Ya, this came up in an earlier forum post about the Orkney brothers, but it doesn't appear as a separate location in the GPC maps and I'm not entirely sure where it ought to go.

10 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Surluse is a separate kingdom from Gorre.

Got it. Will make the change. 

10 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Nantes is in the hands of the Duke of Brittany (Tristram killed its ruler for him).

Do you think this is just the area around Nantes or a considerable land connecting the two? When did this happen?(Just because I want to see it too)

10 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

You may want to note the realms granted by Lancelot to his followers in the Downfall in the 560s, as these were former parts of Arthur's empire, taken during the war against Claudas in the 530s.

The realms in France? The GPC seems to have only Benwick and Ganis being given to Lancelot. I know the wars in France seem to give them more lands, but it seems unlisted? Maybe I'm not seeing them though.

10 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Joyeuse Garde seems to be separate from Garloth as Lancelot's personal domain. It's southern Northumberland.

My thought was that Joyeuse Gard was the castle and limited lands around it not amounting to so much land as would need to be represented. Why would that not be the case? I have the castle mapped on previous maps, but I don't want to put castles on this map.

10 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Also you have Lyonesse missing.

I like Lyonesse as a pre-destruction version of the Scilly Islands. And I covered them with the map of Ireland... I hadn't noticed. Thanks. Maybe I need another cutout?

[jeffjerwin]

9 hours ago, Username said:

I put it together with Logres to symbolize their close relationship. Despite Guinevere ruling it separately, it doesn't seem as though she'd administrate it separately. Still, that's why I placed it as a Kingdom instead of the same as the other counties. Do you think it would be better represented as entirely separate?

Ya, this came up in an earlier forum post about the Orkney brothers, but it doesn't appear as a separate location in the GPC maps and I'm not entirely sure where it ought to go.

Do you think this is just the area around Nantes or a considerable land connecting the two? When did this happen?(Just because I want to see it too)

The realms in France? The GPC seems to have only Benwick and Ganis being given to Lancelot. I know the wars in France seem to give them more lands, but it seems unlisted? Maybe I'm not seeing them though.

My thought was that Joyeuse Gard was the castle and limited lands around it not amounting to so much land as would need to be represented. Why would that not be the case? I have the castle mapped on previous maps, but I don't want to put castles on this map.

I like Lyonesse as a pre-destruction version of the Scilly Islands. And I covered them with the map of Ireland... I hadn't noticed. Thanks. Maybe I need another cutout?

I'd recommend getting out your Malory, as in some cases there is more detail than the GPC.

1. I'd put Cameliard in a different shade of the same color as Logres, I think. (I'd do the same for Joyeuse Garde)

2. Tristram defeats characters identified in several verse romances with the Counts of Nantes and Rennes in almost all versions of his story (it's Earl Grip in Malory). They were warring against Duke Hoel. Tristram does this prior to wedding Isolde of the White Hands.This is in 536-7.

3. The list of realms parceled out by Lancelot are in Malory and are essentially most of western France, excluding the land of King Guntram (Merovingian Burgundy) and King Sigisbert (Austrasia).

4. Lancelot has a considerable fief in as much as it's a half day's ride from the river and hermitage that marks its boundary to the castle itself in the Vulgate, which comes across as huge.

5. People ride from Cornwall to Lyonesse, so your interpretation may encounter some issues. Most of the places mentioned in the Prose Tristan and the few places put there in Malory correspond to real places in Penwith.

Edited January 26, 2020 by jeffjerwin

[Username]

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

I'd put Cameliard in a different shade of the same color as Logres, I think. (I'd do the same for Joyeuse Garde)

I doubt that would look right to the color scheme, but I'll take a look. I was trying to keep it in line with some late 17th century maps I was using as reference. I'll think about this one. But am kind of leaning towards splitting them again now back to their original colors.

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

Tristram defeats characters identified in several verse romances with the Counts of Nantes and Rennes in almost all versions of his story (it's Earl Grip in Malory). They were warring against Duke Hoel. Tristram does this prior to wedding Isolde of the White Hands.This is in 536-7.

Sounds good. I'll take a look to see what we can define as a county around Nantes and come back to this.

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

The list of realms parceled out by Lancelot are in Malory and are essentially most of western France, excluding the land of King Guntram (Merovingian Burgundy) and King Sigisbert (Austrasia).

I'm not sure this lines up with the events in the GPC. This would be most of Kingdom of France. The same king that offers him vassalage when he arrives and grants him Benwick and Ganis. Now, I now the wars in France begin in the 530s and I could see a greater loss of territory (maybe Toulouse and some of Languedoc), but not everything west of Normandy and Provence.

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

. Lancelot has a considerable fief in as much as it's a half day's ride from the river and hermitage that marks its boundary to the castle itself in the Vulgate, which comes across as huge.

Sounds good. I'll have to check, but that would probably be 15 mile radius from the castle. Which should be large enough to be legible.

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

5. People ride from Cornwall to Lyonesse, so your interpretation may encounter some issues. Most of the places mentioned in the Prose Tristan and the few places put there in Malory correspond to real places in Penwith.

I know the original maps showed an extension of the Cornish peninsula, but I'm not a fan of that. Otherwise, we have good maps published that have Penwith labelled as part of Totnes. 

I also noticed Powys is the same color as Logres which will need to be changed and the river names in France look odd now that I'm staring at it.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Username

[jeffjerwin]

49 minutes ago, Username said:

I'm not sure this lines up with the events in the GPC. This would be most of Kingdom of France. The same king that offers him vassalage when he arrives and grants him Benwick and Ganis. Now, I now the wars in France begin in the 530s and I could see a greater loss of territory (maybe Toulouse and some of Languedoc), but not everything west of Normandy and Provence.

I know the original maps showed an extension of the Cornish peninsula, but I'm not a fan of that. Otherwise, we have good maps published that have Penwith labelled as part of Totnes. 

1. That's a deviation between the GPC and Malory. There are a number of them in the Downfall. Benwick and Ganis have been independent of the French since 536-7 so there's an inconsistency here in the campaign; no reason is given for the French king recovering these lands, which had been usurped from Lancelot's father and uncle. Certainly Brittany, Normandy, Anjou, Maine, and Poitou are vassals of Arthur in the Lancelot-Grail, chronicles, and Malory, and owe no fealty to the French king (the model is obviously the Angevin Empire, though without the problem of being held from France). Moreover Lancelot's cousins are inserted in several sources as ancestors of Charlemagne (the Merovingians being ignored).

2. These maps are misleading. The petty kingdom of Lyonesse is a vassal of the King at Totnes/Cornwall. Check out the map on p.88 in Book of Sires for a clearer representation.

[Username]

20 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

...campaign; no reason is given for the French king recovering these lands.. 

I interpreted this as Claudas giving up his claims to those lands and recognizing Ganis and Benwick's de facto independence. And a promise to stay out of the conflict. 

I'll look at this, though I can't see including all of it as de Ganis lands considering the position that the Franks seem to be meant to have. They seem to be considered a regional power and antagonist through the end of the game. However, I do think the 544 map should reflect the gains from the campaigns in France described in the GPC. And currently it only shows the status quo as of the 530s France map. I had initially thought much of those campaign gains would be the Ganis clan reconquest of their traditional lands.

20 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Check out the map on p.88 in Book of Sires for a clearer representation.

Will do. Though, to let you know, I'm still learning towards Scilly as Lyonesse if you don't see it changed. 

@jeffjerwin Thanks for you time and input. I appreciate it.

[Username]

23 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Lancelot has a considerable fief in as much as it's a half day's ride from the river and hermitage that marks its boundary to the castle itself in the Vulgate, which comes across as huge.

A 20 mile radius which about equates to a half day ride(maybe a little generous) would put the lands as smaller than Penllyn in Cambria. But not by much. I put it on there. The next map will have it. I fixed some lettering mistakes and a few other things. Improved river placement. Still deciding what to do in France. 

[Tizun Thane]

I like your map. Brittany is accurate by the way. Maybe you could color Leon and Cornouaille in purple like Corwall, to show their allegeance. Otherwiste, there is no need for a specific county of Rennes, or Nantes. the kingdom of Vannetais is enough, and works just fine.

With France, I am a bit surprised. Why didn't you make Burgundy a part of the kingdom? Same thing with Languedoc or Provence.

You mention Auvergne or County of Toulouse, which is good, so maybe you should mention the duchy of Normandy, the counties of Flanders or Champagne, the big names.

Otherwise, it's a wise move not to bother with the merovingian kingdoms (Austrasia, etc.). The frontiers change all the time.

Edit: By the way, Anglia and Caercolun are joined into an unique duchy (Anglia).

Hartland became Hertford after Uther's reign? Is it canon in the GPC ?

Edited January 27, 2020 by Tizun Thane