Spoiler Maps! Based on the GPC and Others

[Username]

Here we are. I'm calling it here as to the political maps. I may do some more county level ones and regional ones, but this one should hold us over till the end of the game. It's probably more late romance than tournament period despite labelling it as 544 for most games. I imagine there would be significant unmarked conquests by 544 in France and Ireland. 

There's two maps here, one, the political map that my group will see. It's slightly different, consider it an alternative reality. And two a more official map. I'll include the official map on the first post.

 

Britain Political Map 544 compressed Home.pdf Britain Political Map 544 (official).pdf

[Tizun Thane]

As I already said, I like your maps. I will probably use one for my game. Some quibbles:

• Castle Pleuré is in Cardigan (Anarchy), not Merionnyd (evil king)
• Newark is in Lindsey, not Bedegraine
• There is an Aisne river in France near Soissons, not Aire
• The Moselle river,  Mosel is the german name
• The Saône River, not Sane river
• The Meuse river, not Maas river (Maas is the the dutch name)
• There is no "Conie" river, it's the Loir river (without "e"), and its riverbed is different [Edit the Conie river exists, but it's just a little tributary of the Loir river, itself tributary to the Sarthe river, itself tributary to the Loire river]
• You forget to draw the Sarthe river beetween Loir and Mayenne (not that important)

Maybe you should name only the big french rivers  (Loire with an "e", Seine, Garonne, Rhône) and let the rest unnamed. It may be more clear that way.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Tizun Thane

[Username]

1 hour ago, Tizun Thane said:

• There is an Aisne river in France near Soissons, not Aire
• The Moselle river,  Mosel is the german name
• The Saône River, not Sane river
• The Meuse river, not Maas river (Maas is the the dutch name)
• There is no "Conie" river, it's the Loir river (without "e"), and its riverbed is different [Edit the Conie river exists, but it's just a little tributary of the Loir river, itself tributary to the Sarthe river, itself tributary to the Loire river]
• You forget to draw the Sarthe river beetween Loir and Mayenne (not that important)

This is all a function of the river name database I used. It outputs the rivers in the language in which the majority of the river is located. I'll fix the Sarthe because that was my mistake. I'm attempting to subsume smaller rivers into larger rivers for readability but for the Sarthe, I absorbed it into the Conie mistakenly. The Aire is an alternative to Aisne. I'd still like to keep some of the rivers in though for the look.

1 hour ago, Tizun Thane said:

Castle Pleuré is in Cardigan (Anarchy), not Merionnyd (evil king)

Gosh, I did this so long ago I forgot I did it. Originally, I thought I could just make a map and share it and call it a day with my judgement calls in tact and a general level of accuracy. I decided when I made this to move the border south because Merionydd lacked any major cities. 

However, and this is nothing to you I appreciate the feedback and the praise, but this project has generally become more tedious and minutely more accurate than originally planned especially since I thought this would be more or less me posting the map I am using. So, long story some of the original borders don't hold up because of choices I made based on my preferences see the long discussion about Lyonesse or Malahaut. But, since I'm fixing the river, I'll do this too.

1 hour ago, Tizun Thane said:

Newark is in Lindsey, not Bedegraine

This one however was problematic for me because it didn't go where I thought but still should hold up. The original map borders and domain maps show Newark in Lindsey. There are unspecific county border maps that show it's location as well. When plotting these locations, I realized a few things. But first, I have to tell you that my day job is to make maps for regional level planning. These can be anything from County or regional maps all of the way down to municipal waterline maps and to do that, we use GIS software. Part of the goal for this project was to work on designing and working in the new software. (The other goal to make some useful maps for KAP) There was also a considerable amount of Photoshop in these, but that's beside the point. 

So, when I was still putting the data (a compilation of various KAP maps (The player map from 5.2, the GPC maps all of them, and the later the Cambrian, Cumbrian, and French maps from Book of Sires) I uploaded the imagery into the software and manipulated it and georeferenced it to real world locations and surprisingly, it matched really really well. Within a margin or error to be within a few hundred feet in places. So, when I plotted the original city and town locations, they are located on the maps were they're meant to be based on their KAP locations. Then I did another layer that was the county borders using the Book of Warlords as my base. And when that came out, there was no other choice, but to leave Newark there as there had been considerable shifting of the borders.

Edit: picture shows three layers, lowest world topographic layer, second KAP 5.2 layer, third city layer, and 4th layer (blue highlight) is Bedegraine

Edit: looking back through the maps at this point, it may have been the same for Castle Pleure. In book of Sires the border for Merionydd is moved considerably south nearly to Aberstwtyh. I honestly can't tell you at this point. I've made the change still. It seems to me at this point we'd need a more accurate overall map out in a supplement. Chaosium, I'd be willing to do it for you. 😉

Edited February 4, 2020 by Username

[Morien]

6 hours ago, Username said:

Edit: I realize I could just check the kingdom profiles in Savage mountains. Gloucester is part of Escavalon. Though, I find it very odd it doesn't have any information or blurb in that book. Not that that changes anything of course.

SM, p. 10, lists Gloucester as one of the three major components of Escavalon. Page 17 repeats this information with a bit of extra on Gloucester.

SM, p. 33, repeats the above as part of Escavalon blurb.

SM, p. 34, Gloucester entry explicitly states that Gloucester is a vassal of King Alain of Escavalon.

It doesn't have its own Kingdom blurb since it is not its own kingdom, but part of Escavalon. On the other hand, Cheshire has its own blurb, and I'd argue that Gloucester is much more important than Ystrad Tywi... Then again, one can always check 3e Knights Adventurous or KAP 4e for information on Gloucester, while Ystrad Tywi, Merionnydd and Penllyn are only on SM.

 

[Username]

4 minutes ago, Morien said:

SM, p. 10, lists Gloucester as one of the three major components of Escavalon. Page 17 repeats this information with a bit of extra on Gloucester.

SM, p. 33, repeats the above as part of Escavalon blurb.

SM, p. 34, Gloucester entry explicitly states that Gloucester is a vassal of King Alain of Escavalon.

I was confirming this. I looked. That's why I said Gloucester is part of Escavalon. 

5 minutes ago, Morien said:

doesn't have its own Kingdom blurb since it is not its own kingdom, but part of Escavalon. On the other hand, Cheshire has its own blurb, and I'd argue that Gloucester is much more important than Ystrad Tywi... Then again, one can always check 3e Knights Adventurous or KAP 4e for information on Gloucester, while Ystrad Tywi, Merionnydd and Penllyn are only on SM.

Mon and Orofoise both have blurbs and their subdivisions of their kingdoms though Mon probably needs one thanks to the Pulag Cat adventure. That's why I thought it was odd that Gloucester didn't have one.

[Tizun Thane]

14 hours ago, Username said:

It outputs the rivers in the language in which the majority of the river is located.

OK. Still, it's the Aisne river and the Loir river, no matter what. Thanks to you, I discovered the Conie and the Aire rivers, but they are small, affluents (tributaries? what is the english word?) of larger rivers (Loir and Aisne). According to Wikipedia, Conie is 32,4 km long for example.

And Sane is still a typo.  This modern map is accurate

http://www.grattepanche-mairie.fr/textes/cartefrancefleuves2.htm

14 hours ago, Username said:

But first, I have to tell you that my day job is to make maps for regional level planning.

Congrats! It sounds like an awesome job. I will use your map, don't worry

[Username]

3 hours ago, Tizun Thane said:

it's the Aisne river and the Loir river, no matter what.

I was mistaken about the Aire. I thought it was another language name, but Instead a tributary (that's the word! Though affluent apparently is an archaic former for tributary system. Didn't know it.) of the Aisne. Anyways, it's as I said earlier 

18 hours ago, Username said:

I'm attempting to subsume smaller rivers into larger rivers for readability but for the Sarthe, I absorbed it into the Conie mistakenly.

So, the Loir and Conie should have been subsumed into the Sarthe. But clearly I screwed up if there's three or more mistakes. It means I messed up methodologically. I understand this isn't "accurate" but the map, especially the small ones would be illegible otherwise. Are those all of the ones you've noticed? I may have to go back and redo it from the source. 

I didn't address the Sane in my post, but it is and I "fixed" it. It was a case of missing characters as the font chosen was missing ^ diacritic. I posted an updated map on the front page, it should be good. I think. Let me know, I get the feeling I may have just uploaded the old map again.

5 hours ago, Tizun Thane said:

20 hours ago, Username said:

 

 

5 hours ago, Tizun Thane said:

Congrats! It sounds like an awesome job. I will use your map, don't worry

 

That got weirdly formatted. Thanks! That wasn't really my point of saying it though. I guess my point was that when mapped onto a projection of Britain, the cities don't line up with the counties their shown to be in on some maps. I guess because they took a real map of Britain and drew on it? Probably they or Greg, I'm not sure who, added towns based on their approximate real world locations. Which resulted in towns moving when mapped to their real world locations or even based on other map locations? So, some towns, like Newark and Pleure especially those which are near borders might have been moved. I just wanted to explain my credentials for doing that in case you didn't believe my explanation.

[Username]

Hello, here's me sharing more maps. Here's some counties that @Morien suggested. I placed Arthur and Ulfius on these. Silchester is projected as a Mercator projection to widen it and take up more space so we see less of the surrounding countries. Hantonne/Wessex is projected like most of the others maps in European Datum. If you notice any major missing locations, unreadable text or spelling errors let me know. 

I'm going to change Hantonne into a more kingly crown. So it'll be changed once before posting on the front page.

Hantonne 1805 Style Compressed.pdf Silchester 1805 Style Compressed.pdf

[Username]

So, quick update. New Hantonne and Arthur are added and I included a blank heraldry symbol I photoshopped from a a late 18th century document. It looks cool. If anyone has a player that's taken over a county or small kingdom equivalent and has heraldry in an image file (jpeg or png) then share it here with the story of their conquest and I'll make them a county map! 

As a heads up, I doubt I'll get swamped, but no promises as to when I'll get to making them.

Hantonne 1805 Style Compressed.pdf

[Tizun Thane]

Nice map. Useful to realize that the Silchester's rebellion is not that crazy. Whith a bit of Bliztkrieg, you can take Camelot (and the King!) by surprise.

[Morien]

17 minutes ago, Tizun Thane said:

Useful to realize that the Silchester's rebellion is not that crazy. Whith a bit of Bliztkrieg, you can take Camelot (and the King!) by surprise.

That was as actually the central idea in my Silchester Rebellion expansion of the GPC event.

The formatting is a bit wonky because the quote boxes are no longer there but it is still readable enough, I think: https://greathall.chaosium.com/Pendragon Forum Archive/index.php/t-2266.html

Edited February 14, 2020 by Morien

[Tizun Thane]

Yeah, I remember. I totally stole your ideas in my campaign, by the way. I was epic, with Morgan's conspiracy...

[Morien]

1 minute ago, Tizun Thane said:

Yeah, I remember. I totally stole your ideas in my campaign, by the way. I was epic, with Morgan's conspiracy...

🙂 Glad you and your players enjoyed it.

[jeffjerwin]

4 hours ago, Morien said:

That was as actually the central idea in my Silchester Rebellion expansion of the GPC event.

The formatting is a bit wonky because the quote boxes are no longer there but it is still readable enough, I think: https://greathall.chaosium.com/Pendragon Forum Archive/index.php/t-2266.html

Originally this comes from Chretien's Cliges, if I recall correctly. Count Angres was identified (at least in Greg's older stuff) with the Count of Silchester.

[jeffjerwin]

N.B. Camelot Forest covers the the west and northwest of Camelot's surrounds if the romances are anything to go by, as it must be traversed by knights travelling from Cornwall, Cambria/Gales and Cumbria/the North.

[Username]

4 hours ago, Morien said:

That was as actually the central idea in my Silchester Rebellion expansion of the GPC event.

I'm going to do this. Thanks for sharing!

 

10 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

N.B. Camelot Forest covers the the west and northwest of Camelot's surrounds if the romances are anything to go by, as it must be traversed by knights travelling from Cornwall, Cambria/Gales and Cumbria/the North.

The Camelot Forest got really hurt by me using that more detailed map of forests in the dark ages. Who would have thought their business so much logging I guess? I'll take another look at it, and see what we can do about changing it around there are a lot of adventures to go on in that forest around Camelot. 

[jeffjerwin]

5 hours ago, Username said:

The Camelot Forest got really hurt by me using that more detailed map of forests in the dark ages. Who would have thought their business so much logging I guess? I'll take another look at it, and see what we can do about changing it around there are a lot of adventures to go on in that forest around Camelot. 

Here's just how "afforested" medieval (as opposed to Dark Age) Hampshire was... Though some of this pasture, moors, and unfortunate villages...

http://info.sjc.ox.ac.uk/forests/ForestIndexSouthCentral.html

[Username]

On 12/6/2019 at 7:33 PM, jeffjerwin said:

The forest cover in KAP is based on maps made in the 1930s of forest cover in the 'Dark Ages' that have since been discarded. Here: 

Map on page 3 of this topic

I used the map you shared here. 

 

Edit: I think those were interesting maps when you shared them earlier. I'm generally content with the 1930s map as my basis. It's easy to work with.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Username

[Tizun Thane]

On 2/14/2020 at 4:58 PM, jeffjerwin said:

Originally this comes from Chretien's Cliges, if I recall correctly. Count Angres was identified (at least in Greg's older stuff) with the Count of Silchester

Angres is the count of Windsor in the tale as well. Very close indeed. It's a bit of a shame count Angres was confused with the sons of Ulfius, because he is much more charismatic.