Damage modifier

[Jason D]

It's certainly more realistic. But how do you halve it for missile weapons?

I'd halve the result of the roll.

[Jason D]

I have to admit though, not sure how you half a penalty. I assume a penalty of -1D4 halved, would actually be -2D4. It is confusing though and still don't know if thats right.

To extend the chart a little bit:

STR + CON

0-4 = -1d6

5-8 = -1d4

9-12 = -1d3

13-16 = -1d2

17-20 = no modifier (technically the previous chart should begin at 21)

Frankly, at this level, I wouldn't bother "doubling" the penalty... the min STR requirements for most weapons means using them is Difficult.

You might add a spot rule (snatched freely from Savage Worlds and bent to my use) stating that if the total possible rolled damage penalty (6 for 1d6, for example) for a hand weapon is greater than the total possible rolled weapon's damage (for example, a broadsword doing 1d8+1 has a total possible of 9)... the chance to hit is reduced to 0%.

[Al.]

I like granular damage dice for human-size combatants. (+1, +1d2, +1d4, +1d6, +1d8, +1d10, +2d6 as posted here somewhere previously)

After that I stick to adding to extra d6 for bigger beasties as the difference between Pete Polar Bear and Paul Polar Bear are of less interest to me.

I halve damage bonus (or damage penalty) for projectiles (thrown or shot)

I step damage bonus up one step if using a weapon with 2 hands (applies equally to gripping my Shortsword 2h KenJutsu style to swinging my Greatsword) and that means that a negative is moved one step closer to zero (so Donald now has a reason to grip that Hatchet with 2 hands)

I used to use different size dice for thrown (d4), 1 handed (d6) and 2 handed (d8) with the chart giving +1/2 die, +1 die, + 1 1/2 die, etc. And it worked very well for a group where we all knew the houserules. 'Twas a nightmare first time out of the box with a new set of players though.

I'm not sure that the RQ4:AiG fixed damage modifiers rule was a disaster (and I've used it without any real pain) it just did not quite feel right. It also meant that BIG beasties made PCs go squish with no chance of a lucky low roll.

Al

[Nightshade]

Given the chance to completely rewrite the damage system, I'd keep it as dice rather than a static modifier, but I'd certainly add more granularity and lower it so it's not as high a value as most weapons.

For example:

STR+SIZ

20-24 = +1d2

25-28 = +1d3 (1d6/2)

29-32 = +1d4

33-36 = +1d6

37-40 = +1d8

41-44 = +1d10

45-48 = +1d12

49-52 = +2d8

53-56 = +2d10

57-60 = +2d12

etc.

Though I might take issue with some of the individual numbers, that's the sort of approach I'd prefer too.

[Nightshade]

Might make 2H weapons too powerfull, as 2H weapons usually do higher damage to start with. I can understand the reasoning though.

SGL.

In RQ I'd have said its fair enough, given the strong benefit of having a shield; with BRPs somewhat less attractive shield rules, I'm not sure.

[deleriad]

I actually like Mongoose's linear dice system for damage modifier. It's based on multiples of five so its fairly easy to eyeball it and it tends to slow down at the top end a little. After all there's probably no discernible difference between getting squished by 120 SIZ dinosaur compared to a 130 SIZ one.

I don't personally like adding any damage modifier for missile weapons - that is figured in the actual weapon stats anyway. I can see the point for thrown weapons. I have always understood as this meaning roll the die and halve the result. I know with bows that your STR affects the draw you can make but so, also, does your skill, quality of the bow and so on. I think it's easier to just have a weapon damage and not try to micromanage.

Again, one good thing in the MRQ weapons system is that if you use a weapon that can be used one or two handed that you get +1 damage when used 2h. So a 1H Bastard sword does 1D8 while 2H Bastard Sword does 1D8+1. Simple and effective.

[Nightshade]

I don't personally like adding any damage modifier for missile weapons - that is figured in the actual weapon stats anyway. I can see the point for thrown

The problem is that BRP doesn't have a sufficiently detailed/sophisticated approach to missile weapons to really cover this; there's a significant difference in the punch of, say, a 30 pound pull bow and a 90 pound pull bow, but all BRP does is to paint them in broad strokes based on bow type (there are some limits on this--you're only going to get so much pull on a simple bow for example--but even within those there's considerable variance).

I'd prefer something that defined bow damage by Strength within certain ranges myself, but its not the tact BRP took, and as long as that's the case I think Strength needs to factor into damage somewhere on them.

[Atgxtg]

I had a system for bow damages by draw weight awhile back. It wasn't too difficult to work out. The draw weight was related to the mass/SIZ rating for a given STR. I think it was one-third the mass listed.

It was something like a die shift per every 3 or 4 points of STR, going up from the Self bow.

I'll see if I can dig up my notes.

[frogspawner]

... there's a significant difference in the punch of, say, a 30 pound pull bow and a 90 pound pull bow, ...

I had a system for bow damages by draw weight awhile back.

Isn't it enough to assume that your particular bow has a poundage that's sufficient to give you your damage bonus? I know you don't just pick up any old bow and shoot, but have to find one that's got the right "pull" for you...

[threedeesix]

Isn't it enough to assume that your particular bow has a poundage that's sufficient to give you your damage bonus? I know you don't just pick up any old bow and shoot, but have to find one that's got the right "pull" for you...

Except when you find that bow as treasure. It cant be "the right pull" for the halfling and the barbarian.

Rod

[threedeesix]

Except when you find that bow as treasure. It cant be "the right pull" for the halfling and the barbarian.

Rod

Oh cool, I'm going to quote myself.

You could figure that if the bow was taken from the corpse of a STR 11, SIZ 8 goblin with no damage bonus. The bow will give no bonus even in the hands of a STR 18, SIZ 16 barbarian.

However, that same barbarian's bow will grant up to a +1D6 damage bonus (memory, not sure) to anyone able to achieve that normally. But no more if an ogre was to pick it up and use it.

It's like the bow is rated for a certain damage bonus only and can do anything up to that but not exceed it.

Does that make sense?

Rod

[frogspawner]

Except when you find that bow as treasure. It cant be "the right pull" for the halfling and the barbarian.

Hmm, oh yeah.

It's like the bow is rated for a certain damage bonus only and can do anything up to that but not exceed it.

Does that make sense?

Perfect sense. So, bows should be for a certain STR just like armour is for a certain SIZ. Right?

[Actually, I think the bows should be usable only by those of that STR or greater (but not do any greater damage). Like Odysseus' bow, which only he could draw (unless Heracles had happened to find it, I guess!)]

Sorry to have to tell you though, Rod - quoting yourself is not 'cool'...

... BUT being able to claim the tall guy at the top of every forum-page is yourself - now, that is cool!

Edited March 17, 2009 by frogspawner
The Odysseus bit.

[Atgxtg]

Hmm, oh yeah.

Perfect sense. So, bows should be for a certain STR just like armour is for a certain SIZ. Right?

[Actually, I think the bows should be usable only by those of that STR or greater (but not do any greater damage). Like Odysseus' bow, which only he could draw (unless Heracles had happened to find it, I guess!)]

Realistically it is a litlle more complicated. Skill should play a factor in what Bow you can weld. The reason being that archers will develop certain muscles in particular. That one of the reasons why modern day archers can draw some of the more powerful bows of the past. There are even some drawback to using heavier draw weights. They can't be held back as long, limiting aiming time, and are more fatiguing.

Also, being too strong for a bow can cause problems too, typically weakining/damaging the bow or breaking it outright.

SIZ really shouldn't factor into the equation. Unlike other weapons, an archer doesn't really benefit from greater mass. While most games assume that longbows are more powerful, such is not necessarily the case.

One interesting about Odysseus' bow is that many historians consider the story to be an indication of the development of the reflex bow. With such bows you need to know the "trick" for stringing them, otherwise you either can't do it, or you break the bow. So Odysseus might not have been stronger than everyone else, but merely knew more about bows that most other people. An idea that blends in well with his persona in the rest of the Odyssey, too.

Now just how important this is for BRP kind of depends on the group of players and their style of play. In a similar light, one could ask "Do we really need stats for multiple types of sword?" Personally I think a little variation among bows is good. It's not like there are a host of options for missile weapons in most fantasy settings.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Atgxtg

[SDLeary]

[brainstorming]

Hmm, oh yeah.

Perfect sense. So, bows should be for a certain STR just like armour is for a certain SIZ. Right?

[Actually, I think the bows should be usable only by those of that STR or greater (but not do any greater damage). Like Odysseus' bow, which only he could draw (unless Heracles had happened to find it, I guess!)]

Realistically it is a litlle more complicated. Skill should play a factor in what Bow you can weld. The reason being that archers will develop certain muscles in particular. That one of the reasons why modern day archers can draw some of the more powerful bows of the past. There are even some drawback to using heavier draw weights. They can't be held back as long, limiting aiming time, and are more fatiguing.

If I'm reading the book right, STR and Skill in missile weapons are already linked (along with DEX). Not having the requisite STR for a bow (or weapons in general) reduces your chance to hit; presumably because you can not hold it back as long, etc. The trick is determining if we should apply additional damage based on stronger draw weight bows.

Its minimal, but how about a +1 per die of Damage Bonus, if the bow was crafted for the individual and not an Arsenal Bow (see below). Thus, most (within human/pc norms) would have a +1 or +2 to the weapon damage, or in rare cases where they can hit, a -1 or 0 for those of lower STR.

Now... conversely, I would say that the "damage bonus" would go away at medium range and beyond.

Thrown missile weapons would retain the 1/2 Damage Bonus.

Of course these minimal increases are much more effective if you are using hit locations.

Arsenal Bow = mass produced bow for large battles. In order to produce large quantities of weapons for their masters, bowyers pay little attention to the quality of the weapon beyond the basics. Thus, they are generally inferior to those made specifically for an archer. Arsenal Bows only have a damage based on the core die of the weapon. Thus the Arsenal version of a self bow would only do 1d6 rather than 1d6+1; the same being true for other types of bow. The bow would break on a fumble. If the player says he wants to get the "normal" damage out of the weapon, he can do it, but the fumble chance doubles.

[/brainstorming]

Now just how important this is for BRP kind of depends on the group of players and their style of play. In a similar light, one could ask "Do we really need stats for multiple types of sword?" Personally I think a little variation among bows is good. It's not like there are a host of options for missile weapons in most fantasy settings.

Agreed, you just have to decide how much variation. I can go see if I can find my copy of the old Palladium book on missile weapons if you want a crack at conversion! ;-)

SDLeary

Edited March 18, 2009 by SDLeary

[Al.]

Showing my BRP background; I started with Stormbringer III which had d6s for melee damage bonus and d4s for thrown and missiles ('this is because a bigger stronger character draws a heavier bow as well as throws an object harder'*)

So I guess for me all else seems frippery and nonsense. Having said that I'm happy to halve damage bonus for missiles just because that makes it easier to have the more granular damage bonus progression. (As posted before I have done a more granular chart with d4 missile, d6 melee, d8 2handed melee but it was tres fiddly). Some of the comments made above are undoubtedly valid and probably a better simulation but this rule is the one which I learned first and so I shall stick to it.

The Crossbow model Light, Medium, Heavy, Arbalest might be a more believable progression (I hate the word 'realistic' when applied to rpg rules!) and were it simple enough (didn't MagicWorld have rules for stronger characters being able to buy a bigger bow?) I might use that instead for sake of consistency.

Al

* that shouldn't really be quotations as I am quoting from memory rather than the text, but this is my post so back off

[Nightshade]

Isn't it enough to assume that your particular bow has a poundage that's sufficient to give you your damage bonus? I know you don't just pick up any old bow and shoot, but have to find one that's got the right "pull" for you...

Well, as others have noted, you don't always end up with the bow appropriate for your Strength. In reality you can also underpull and overpull (though to only a limited degree).

But really, my point was that if you're not going to apply damage bonus in some fashion to muscle powered missile weapons, you need to represent things by having a significantly wider range of bows than most BRP games have traditionally done; just having a self bow, a composite bow and a long bow doesn't cut it.

[Atgxtg]

[brainstorming]

If I'm reading the book right, STR and Skill in missile weapons are already linked (along with DEX). Not having the requisite STR for a bow (or weapons in general) reduces your chance to hit; presumably because you can not hold it back as long, etc. The trick is determining if we should apply additional damage based on stronger draw weight bows.

Its minimal, but how about a +1 per die of Damage Bonus, if the bow was crafted for the individual and not an Arsenal Bow (see below). Thus, most (within human/pc norms) would have a +1 or +2 to the weapon damage, or in rare cases where they can hit, a -1 or 0 for those of lower STR.

I don't think it should be addtional damage, as per a db, but instead be in the weapon damage rating. Basically a certain STR/draw weight would be worth 1D6+1, another value 1D(+1, another 1D10+1, and another 2d6+1. Basically something along the same lines as they do for crossbows.

What I mean about skill being a factor in damage is that a guy with an Bow skill at 80% can pull a stronger bow than a guy with bow at 30% even if they both have the same STR score.

Now... conversely, I would say that the "damage bonus" would go away at medium range and beyond. [/brainstorming]

Not quite, since a arrow fired from a more powerful bow should still be traveling faster than one from an less powerful bow. I suppose what might make sense would be to drop the damage die down a step at each range bracket. If we have two ranges (like 90m/120m) then drop the damage down a die at the half skill point.

Agreed, you just have to decide how much variation. I can go see if I can find my copy of the old Palladium book on missile weapons if you want a crack at conversion! ;-)

SDLeary

Don't bother. I have it, along with a few other things. In fact, I wrote up something along these lines for a different RPG a few months back.

But again, it all depends on just how much detail/realism we want. For example, if we really wanted to be realistic we would limit bow ranges to about 80m or so. Modern archers will tell you that you can't hit a man sized target with any degree of reliability past that point. All the hits at greater rangers were achieved by shooting at massed targets.

I suppose I could try putting something together as an optional variant. It's not like anyone would be forced to use it.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Atgxtg

[Al.]

I don't think it should be addtional damage, as per a db, but instead be in the weapon damage rating. Basically a certain STR/draw weight would be worth 1D6+1, another value 1D(+1, another 1D10+1, and another 2d6+1. Basically something along the same lines as they do for crossbows.

I hereby admit my stupidity it took me several reads to realise that 1D(+1 was a typo for 1D8+1. Or is this another bit of leetspeak which has sailed over my head?

As I mentioned before though for consistency having a menu of bows a la the menu of crossbows relating Str needed to damage might work. (Personally I'm still clinging to my SBIII friend of damage bonus to reflect greater draw but that ain't no reason not to make the change)

Not quite, since a arrow fired

Firing arrows, tsk, tsk

Al

[Atgxtg]

I hereby admit my stupidity it took me several reads to realise that 1D(+1 was a typo for 1D8+1. Or is this another bit of leetspeak which has sailed over my head?

Your stupidity!?! I'm the who who made the typo. Blasted SHIFT key. In my own defense all I can say is that the U3 keyboard is a bit smaller that normal keyboards. IT7s not much of a defense though. Kinda like leather vs. a dagger. :eek:

As I mentioned before though for consistency having a menu of bows a la the menu of crossbows relating Str needed to damage might work. (Personally I'm still clinging to my SBIII friend of damage bonus to reflect greater draw but that ain't no reason not to make the change)

I'll see what I have at home, and put it into a table.

I hated to do it, but we are in a recession.

[Al.]

I hated to do it, but we are in a recession.

[Hervé]

Damage in BRP has always been somewhat clunky (like 1d8+1+1d4) when the rest of the system is rather smooth. There have been little evolution since the earliest versions of the game back in 78.

We currently use a streamlined damage system in our Conan BRP game. Damage bonus is fixed, OGL style, and all weapons of roughly same size and category do the same damage, a bit like in WHRPG. I've always wondered how RPG designers could rule that a scimitar or longsword could do different damage. Do they test weapons on dummies?

It goes like this:

Hand to Hand: 1D3

Light Weapons: 1D6

One Hand Weapon: 2D6

Heavy Weapons: 3D6

Polearm Weapons: 2D6

Bows: 2D6

Crossbows: 2D6+2

Strength bonus for bows and thrown weapons is halved, RD. We also use Dex/Initiative modifiers by weapon type or for wearing heavy armor. Damage ratings are quite high, as we play the game in a "Heroic" way, where characters and major NPCs have CON+SIZ hps (goons keep their CON+SIZ/2 hps). We wanted our Conan BRP characters to be able to withstand tremendous amounts of damage while slashing their way through hordes of goons (That's Conan, BTW).

Damage by weapon category help players focus on weapon style rather than just rely on technical stats of the weapon table. We do use the critical effects by weapon type from the last BRP though. It has streamlined combat, as there 's a bit less dice rolling.

My two cents.