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18 minutes ago, davecake said:

I got my copy of the Gencon preview yesterday . . . Book quests are a big deal. 

Jealous. A lot of great threads burbling right now, this one is now my favorite. 

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On 8/12/2019 at 9:26 AM, Minlister said:

I don't think it is so hard to create an index for the LM great library. It seems clear that Joerg's parents managed to do it...:P

Nah, he can just reach the top shelves without using a stepladder, a great advantage for a Librarian. 🙂

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Just now, soltakss said:

Nah, he can just reach the top shelves without using a stepladder, a great advantage for a Librarian. 🙂

reminds me of that great illustration of the Only Old One in uz form wearing tiny spectacles. Nobody realises the real reason he chose that form is so he can reach the top shelves of his library...

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20 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Oook

I vastly prefer this good-natured abuse of my person over that in the Malkioni society thread...

Now where is my banana?

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On 8/16/2019 at 9:15 AM, soltakss said:

Nah, he can just reach the top shelves without using a stepladder, a great advantage for a Librarian. 🙂

Sometimes, when my wife asks me to reach something down from a top shelf, I sob & accuse her "You only married me for my BODY!"

 

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On the issue of indexing, keep in mind that this is very hard to do with scrolls, because no two pieces of paper (I'll just use that as the general term for the various writing surfaces) are exactly the same size and shape, and scrolls are made by sewing or gluing pages together. This means that no two scrolls will be identical, especially because hand-writing will cause the amount of text per page to vary from one copy of a work to another. One copy of a text will run to 30 sheets of paper while another may be 28. Some scrolls will be written continuously on one side (the recto) and then flipped over to write on the other side (the verso), while others will be written on the recto of a sheet, then the verso of that sheet, then the recto of the next sheet, which gets sewed on as needed. That's why the ancient world never developed this concept. It just wasn't something that makes sense with scrolls.

Indexes more or less require codices (what we call books, rather than scrolls). The first indices weren't used until the 13th century, and they were invented to help inquisitors keep track of whether people had relapsed into heresy or not. So they had a very practical use, rather than a scholarly use. Scholar indexing wasn't invented until the printing press had allowed the production of dozens of essentially identical copies of a particular book. That meant that when a scholar made a note to check p.42 of a book, every copy of that book would have the same info on page 42. So while indexing books seems an obvious thing to us, it's not an obvious idea to pre-modern people. 

Edited by Bohemond
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1 hour ago, Bohemond said:

On the issue of indexing,

I don't think indexing is a thing that happens in Glorantha. There are alternatives to page number indexes (which as Bhemond say, only really happen after the printing press), but they seem even later innovations. As an example, the system of organised Bible verses now used only happened in the 16th century. 

Catalogs, yes, but there are still a lot of challenges with that. There are books that contain discussion of the contents of other books - such as Garangian Bronze-Guts of the Jonstown Library and his 120 volume Compendium of Persons Eminent in Every Branch of Learning with a List of Their Writings - but many books will be listed under other names, in partial forms, with poorly translated titles if in another language (if translated at all), and full of the authors biases. Some books may be listed as artifacts instead, some may be i poor condition, etc. Plus knowing the book should be there is no guarantee it will be. Plus every cataloging system will be different (there is no Dewy Decimal etc standard) and probably disorganised. 

Actually making a working catalog of a large diverse library, requiring the cooperation of multiple scholarly experts, is probably a Lhankor Mhy hero task.

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16 minutes ago, davecake said:

I don't think indexing is a thing that happens in Glorantha. There are alternatives to page number indexes (which as Bhemond say, only really happen after the printing press), but they seem even later innovations. As an example, the system of organised Bible verses now used only happened in the 16th century. 

Catalogs, yes, but there are still a lot of challenges with that. There are books that contain discussion of the contents of other books - such as Garangian Bronze-Guts of the Jonstown Library and his 120 volume Compendium of Persons Eminent in Every Branch of Learning with a List of Their Writings - but many books will be listed under other names, in partial forms, with poorly translated titles if in another language (if translated at all), and full of the authors biases. Some books may be listed as artifacts instead, some may be i poor condition, etc. Plus knowing the book should be there is no guarantee it will be. Plus every cataloging system will be different (there is no Dewy Decimal etc standard) and probably disorganised. 

Actually making a working catalog of a large diverse library, requiring the cooperation of multiple scholarly experts, is probably a Lhankor Mhy hero task.

Trevor Ackerly and I wrote about this issue long ago:

THIS IS A DOCUMENT OF LHANKOR MHY, LORD OF THE LIGHT OF INSPIRATION AND SEEKER OF KNOWLEDGE FROM BEYOND THE KEN OF THE GODS. 

ABSTRACT 
A report by Theodopolous Pandarus, initiate of Lhankor Mhy and Temple Collator, on the scandalous faction-fighting at the Lhankor Mhy temple of Nochet City, with specific reference to the hoarding of knowledge and its deleterious effect upon the temple library, examined in context with the depilation of knowledge caused by the recent conflagration and pillage; and incorporating a brief dissertation on the growing reliance placed upon verbal descriptions.

There is a lot of faction-fighting at this temple[1].

Having commenced thus I am uncertain how to continue...

[Translators' Note: There follows many pages of drivel upon the direction good writing should follow, eg. "The Sages of the West love to start a story in the middle and finish there as well. They jump about the story-line with no respect for continuity. The Lunars, on the other hand, love to tell a story in true Imperial style, beginning at the start and finishing at the end, never deviating from a direct linear path. I myself prefer a middle road...."]

At the Lhankor Mhy library in Nochet great disarray prevails. The collection of scrolls and tablets referred to as "the library" is a motley assortment of documents written in every tongue known (and some unknown) to man. Each faction head or notable has therefore resorted to keeping a personal library pertaining to his own interests, written in whatever tongue he has mastered. Access to these private collections is reserved for members of the faction, and even then one must know the correct language to have any hope of reading a particular document. However, by appeasing the writer it may be possible for him to translate it for you: thus it is often necessary to espouse the "Round Earth" theory[2] or similar rubbish to gain access to a vital text.

Many documents are available in the common library, and some copyists laboriously reproduce them for general use. They are invariably in some foreign tongue however, and therefore of no use to anybody. Furthermore, the apprentices assigned to sorting and cataloging often spy upon the doings of other scholars, then report their information back to their factional superiors. It is not at all uncommon for certain crucial documents to be translated overnight by some priest into a language unknown to the researcher's faction, or simply disappear into a factional hoard.

The root cause of this evil is the incumbent High Priest's policy of "publish or perish", by which is demanded that all Sages and initiates must produce a given quota of written material each season.

In the mayhem that followed Greymane's sack of the city four years back (1618), a great fire consumed part of the library wing of the temple (upon the site of which you will today see the temple corral). Furthermore, much of what was saved was later sequestered by rapacious Lunar scholars after the Empire's capture of the city last year ( including, sadly, the only extant copy of the Golden Books of Elephantis, the most copious encyclopeadia of pornography ever assembled). I must begrudgingly acknowledge the fact while the damage to the collection from these twin disasters was tragic, even greater would have been the loss had not much of the collection been stored away from the library in factional caches. To reverse this catastrophe, it is current policy that all should do their utmost to set to written account all they can accurately recall from their studies in the old library. By order of High Priest, strict quotas have been applied, so that reconstruction can proceed with the utmost speed. This order has resulted in even the most reputable sages churning out the most inaccurate, prolix and banal reports, merely to met their quota.

The present drought has also caused a grave shortage of flax for paper making.

As a result, paper too has become another focus of factional struggle. Much vital information cannot be set down due to the limited supply, and is retained only in the memories of the elder priests (who for their part are unwilling to divulge what they recall anyway, because of the increased prestige it has given them). This state of affairs is cause of many errors, especially as many of the older sages are senile.

As Temple Collator, in charge of the great Collectanea, that great fount of wisdom collected and assembled down the ages by sages numerous and wise, I call upon all in this temple to cast aside their petty factional differences and strive to build up the present thirtieth volume of the work. A ready supply of the freshest parchment awaits those who would endeavour to recall the knowledge that was lost when Greymane's mob ruled the city. By doing so, we can restore all that perished in the flames, or was taken in the sack afterwards. Come bearded brothers! Still your venomous tongues and instead take up the stylus and pen so as to glorify Lhankor Mhy, Mouth of Wisdom!

[1] Factions in the Nochet temple are centered around dominant personalities in the temple hierarchy rather than nationalities, unlike the New Pavis Lhankor Mhy (see Cults of Prax, p.72.) Thus cliques are formed around the High Priest, the Chief of Loremasters and so on. Potentially one of the most powerful members of the temple organization is in fact the Provost of Apprentices, who has dozens of apprentices to serve and spy for him. In reality, many of these junior sages are seduced and swayed by other factional leaders, with promises of preferment and obligation. Sometimes great philosophical controversies rage through the temple, with each faction taking opposing views. The High Priest has long since given up staging debates in the chapter house to resolve these divisions, as most used to end up in undignified brawls. The general lack of cooperation in the temple has enabled the Irripi Ontor cult to insinuate itself effectively into the temple administration. Let it be said that there are some scholars at the temple who disdain to enter the fray of factional politics, but they are few.

[2] Theo P. writes of the Round Earthists: "This ridiculous theory, devised by the sage Columbus Mercator, claims that the world is actually spherical, rather than the quarish, bulging lozenge of legend. Such is typical of the speculative frippery one must expect from the quill of our Chief Priest and his cronies." 
 

From the Notes From Nochet files... 

[XXIX.22-14.a] 
My initial impressions of notable members of this temple, made in haste by Capybarus the Thinker, lately arrived in Nochet and here to root out and understand the chaotics in our midst.

[22-14.b] Mutiog, high priest: A sheep in sheep's clothing.

[22-14.c] Anias, deputy chief librarian: He has but one interest, that of self-interest.

[22-14.d] Columbus Mercator, chief of loremasters: He has a brilliant mind - until it is made up.

[22-14.e] Lucien, temple diviner: He has not a single redeeming defect.

[22-14.f] Eudoxus, assistant deputy chief librarian: A modest little man with much to be modest about.

[22-14.g] Phlogiston, temple alchemist: A lewd vegetarian.

[22-14.h] Procopius, chief priest: He not only overflows with learning, he stands in the slop.

[22-14.i] Festus Rustbeard, deputy provost of apprentices: He has delusions of adequacy.

[22-14.j] Thredbo the Traveller, wild sage and erstwhile temple cartographer: He is apparently suffering from mental saddle-sores.

[22-14.k] Asmodea, assistant chief priest: She has made her conscience not her guide, but her accomplice.

[22-14.l] Narses Leadbeater, temple auditor: A dessicated calculating machine.

[22-14.m] Theodopolus Pandarus, temple collator: A sage of absolutely no consequence.

[22-14.n] Telgonius the Jurist, law-master:

Supplemental Note by Theodopolus Panderas: I can only add the following summation of Capybarus's character, to complement his list: 
Capybarus the Thinker, sage: A curious mix of geniality and venom. Theo. P. 

http://rpgreview.net/mob/factionfighting.htm

Edited by MOB
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5 hours ago, MOB said:

In the mayhem that followed Greymane's sack of the city four years back (1618), a great fire consumed part of the library wing of the temple (upon the site of which you will today see the temple corral).

Of course we can see that said Theodopolous Pandarus clearly has exaggerated his text. Greymane, in fact, never even reached Nochet, nor was there a fire at the time consuming any part of the temple, and all know that the temple stables sit outside of the temple walls, not inside.

5 hours ago, MOB said:

much of what was saved was later sequestered by rapacious Lunar scholars after the Empire's capture of the city last year

Theodopolous may, in fact, be confusing and conflating events. All know that the Brown Men first came a generation earlier and were the cause of the celebrated Scholar's Riots which drove them from the temple and the city. That a few Brown Men arrived with the Lunar delegation is true, but all of the temple's schools, even the Charterists, closed their doors to these new arrivals. And, of course, the Empire did not capture the city.

--Asmodea Hulta, Deputy Chief Priest, Grey Lords, Temple of Knowledge, Nochet

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8 hours ago, Bohemond said:

On the issue of indexing, keep in mind that this is very hard to do with scrolls, because no two pieces of paper (I'll just use that as the general term for the various writing surfaces) are exactly the same size and shape, and scrolls are made by sewing or gluing pages together. This means that no two scrolls will be identical, especially because hand-writing will cause the amount of text per page to vary from one copy of a work to another. One copy of a text will run to 30 sheets of paper while another may be 28. Some scrolls will be written continuously on one side (the recto) and then flipped over to write on the other side (the verso), while others will be written on the recto of a sheet, then the verso of that sheet, then the recto of the next sheet, which gets sewed on as needed. That's why the ancient world never developed this concept. It just wasn't something that makes sense with scrolls.

That's less of an issue with documents that are separated into books/chapters and verses, usually numbered. Being able to reference single sentences or at most paragraphs consistently has made exchange of biblical quotes a matter of a name and a few numbers in order, regardless of the format or even languae of the edition you are referencing.

Frex, Plato's Politeia (aka The Republic) has been split into various books in order to allow references.

Of course, there are such texts where giving the edition is crucial. The sharpened Abiding Books (introduced by the Malkioneranists faithfully continued by the Rokari) differ greatly from the original.

More so than e.g. the Wicked Bible (referenced in Good Omens) which left out three innocent letters (n, o and t) from "Thou shalt not commit adultery"...

 

 

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Thank you all for the additional perspectives on indexing! :)

On 8/22/2019 at 10:47 PM, MOB said:

Thank you so much for bringing this into the mix. It's definitely been helpful, and has given me an idea on the sort of things that Lhankor Mhy cult factions could care about.

 

More heroic Lhankor Mhy questions on my end!

  • HGQ references the Alien Combination Machine (ACM) as a device that clears sorcerous texts from "corruption" so they may safely be used by Lhankor Mhy initiates -- what exactly does it do here? Are there actually any magical (mythical) properties of sorcerous texts that a theistic LM cult would be corrupted by? Does the ACM just add some theistic propaganda like a weird censorship device? I don't see why LM initiates would be negatively affected mythically here by using a sorcerous grimoire, if sorcery is as logical as claimed.
  • On a related note, and I'm not sure how correct this is, I've gotten the impression from the Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha thread that LM is a subcult of a larger cult that includes Buserian and Irrippi Ontor. There's also this idea I've seen that what the God Learners learned wasn't necessarily wrong, and the monomyth is essentially true. So is it the case that mythically, there isn't divine reward or punishment for persuing a particular subcult, in the eyes of the god? Are all of the actual conflicts just between followers and their perception of the gods? (Did I just become Illuminated? My clan doesn't like me now -- how do I undo this, and make the gods separate again?)
  • Do LM cultists have magical means to gain secrets from history, aside from personally engaging in heroquests, or learning indirectly from those who did?
  • Have you had any heroic LM players who changed the face of your Glorantha, captured the light of knowledge, or tried to? What did they learn, and what did they use?
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21 minutes ago, Sub said:

I've gotten the impression from the Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha thread that LM is a subcult of a larger cult that includes Buserian and Irrippi Ontor.

i've got a headache now.

I definitely would not classify Buserian, the Brown Man and Lhankor Mhy as "subcults" of a monomythic nameless scholar god.

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56 minutes ago, Sub said:

HGQ references the Alien Combination Machine (ACM) as a device that clears sorcerous texts from "corruption" so they may safely be used by Lhankor Mhy initiates -- what exactly does it do here? Are there actually any magical (mythical) properties of sorcerous texts that a theistic LM cult would be corrupted by?

In practical terms, I think this more or translates from Western to Elasa script. i also don’t think it really ‘works’ flawlessly - translating spells from a Western grimoire is still really impractical without knowing Western, but a Lhankor Mhy who does know Western can relatively easily produce a version of the spell for other Lhankor Mhy to use. 

As far as corruption, not really sure if this is a real thing or not. 

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1 hour ago, Sub said:

On a related note, and I'm not sure how correct this is, I've gotten the impression from the Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha thread that LM is a subcult of a larger cult that includes Buserian and Irrippi Ontor. 

Basically, the new GoG says there are few meaningful divine differences between Lhankor Mhy and Buserian (apart from different allied cults), and the God Learners treated them as different names for the same God, and the GL are substantially correct. It takes a similar course for a lot of deities. They have the same Divine spells (apart from allies), and both use sorcery (though the sorcery spells are substantially different -Buserian is much more into celestial magic). IO is a Lunarised version of Buserian, so has a different set of allied cults, and some access to Lunar Rune magic and Sorcery. 

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2 hours ago, davecake said:

Basically, the new GoG says there are few meaningful divine differences between Lhankor Mhy and Buserian (apart from different allied cults), and the God Learners treated them as different names for the same God, and the GL are substantially correct. It takes a similar course for a lot of deities. They have the same Divine spells (apart from allies), and both use sorcery (though the sorcery spells are substantially different -Buserian is much more into celestial magic). IO is a Lunarised version of Buserian, so has a different set of allied cults, and some access to Lunar Rune magic and Sorcery. 

Nonetheless, I would not reasonably classify them as subcults of the same deity because there's no deity there. I mean, I guess you could say LM and IO are Storm and Moon variants of Buserian (he's older, he gets precedent imho), but... idk, man. It burns a little.

Also, as much as it's useful to think of the monomyth, context is for kings. The details are what make the stories interesting. Sure, Irippi Ontor is a bearded dude who knows stuff, but his story is not the same as the story of Buserian and their magics reflect that fairly significantly. Buserian was meticulous, ascetic and kind, discovered astronomy, compassionately saved people in the Darkness, created comparative theology. Irippi Ontor was a power-hungry disgraced reckless thief who was tossed out of not just Buserian's priesthood, but Lhankor Mhy's as well. He's a mad scientist.

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5 hours ago, davecake said:

IO is a Lunarised version of Buserian, so has a different set of allied cults, and some access to Lunar Rune magic and Sorcery. 

Interesting, as Irrippi Ontor used to be a Lunarised version of Lhankor Mhy. Buserian makes sense, as the Lunar Empire is also the Dara Happan Empire.

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Oh my, what a hornet's nest to stir up...

 

3 hours ago, Sub said:
  • On a related note, and I'm not sure how correct this is, I've gotten the impression from the Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha thread that LM is a subcult of a larger cult that includes Buserian and Irrippi Ontor. There's also this idea I've seen that what the God Learners learned wasn't necessarily wrong, and the monomyth is essentially true. So is it the case that mythically, there isn't divine reward or punishment for persuing a particular subcult, in the eyes of the god? Are all of the actual conflicts just between followers and their perception of the gods? (Did I just become Illuminated? My clan doesn't like me now -- how do I undo this, and make the gods separate again?)

The many identities of Tadenit...

Not being privy to the text of GaGoG and its revelations on LM, Buserian and IO, as a long-time handler of sages there appears to be lots of fusion going on with the local sage cults.

It is almost as if the invention of any kind of script summons the memetic sage entity into the inventor, absorbing his (its?) previous existance into the eternal librarian.

He was born to Orenoar under the influence of Acos or the Spike (personified as Mostal). The preserver of Truth.

 

His whereabouts in the Golden Age are unclear. Lhankor Mhy was available as the Scribe of Nochet, and as the data repository for young Orlanth when he slew Sh'Harkarzeel at the feet of his mother.

 

Buserian on the other hand is a Dara Happan deity. The Gods Wall commentary associates him with the Z-rune overseer of Abgammon (city of the near east in the Murharzarmic Percect Empire) (Zator in the Copper Tablets) and names him a celestial son of Yelm. The entity actually bearing the Truth Rune (Y) is identified as Zaytenaras, an expression of Dayzatar and then identified as a portion of Sedenya.

The Z rune appears to stand for sorcery in the Hero Wars RPG/HeroQuest1 era of rune proliferation of Greg's writings from which the Gods Wall symbols result, too. My first contact with the Gods Wall was in the Dara Happan Book of Emperors, an early version of the Fortunate Succession of the Stafford Library sold at Convulsion (I think 1994), before the Carmanian parts got expanded in later editions and the Gods Wall was moved into the Glorious ReAscent.

(Note that the Shargash rune bears an uncanny similarity to the Spike's Law rune...)

 

Linguistically, and from the job description, Buserian is the Sacrificer of Bulls - compare Busenari, the cow goddess. Busi would be the Dara Happan/Pelorian term for bovines/cattle.

But there were quite likely no cattle in Murharzarm's empire. Much like the EWF no longer had regular cattle or sheep in the heartlands of the dragon dream, the basic domestic beast of Murharzarm's original Dara Happa were (likely feathered) Gazzam.

It isn't clear whether there was sacrifice or butchering of beasts, either. The inthronisation of Anaxial was accompanied by sacrifices of cattle and lions, though.

But in the end, Buserian was the (ritual) butcher of Dara Happa when animal sacrifice and meat became part of the culture. This later gets overseen by the Enverinus burners of sacrifices.

After Argentium Thri'ile, the Buserian cult may have adopted the ways of Waha from those Praxian nomads who chose to stay in Kostaddi, Darjiin, and Sylila. (Using the sixth-wane satrapy borders as geographical rather than cultural descriptors).

The butcher portion of the cult may still be important in Buserian. I don't think that the Orlanthi Lhankor Mhy cults have half as much butchery/sacrificer elements as the Buserian cult.

 

The Planetary Son of the East is Zator, and he is the celestial son who calls out the stars from the Pit (aka Stormgate).

This action may be behind the Buserian Star Lore (e.g. per p.646 in the Guide).

Pillar Lore, the complete celestial lore now kept in Yuthuppa (a city founded only after the Flood).

The original city of the Pillar would have been the Celestial Court of the Spike, or perhaps Abgammon or Senthoros.

IMO Zator is the chronicler and probably author/master of Celestial Lore, the origin of the stars. He disappears into the Pit, never to be seen again, and thus becomes the Invisible God of the Dara Happans.

As IMO Buserian is his much later incarnation/aspect, of the flood era. Buserian brings the plans for Anaxial's Ark from Senthoros, not Abgammon.

 

Buserian appears at the end of the wife contest myth as the third-born of Yelm and Dendara, younger sibling of Shargash and Murharzarm.

 

I wonder how much rational decision was behind the color scheme that the GM screen color version of the Gods Wall shows was dictated to the artist. Judging from Jeff's previous record at art direction and the results e.g. for the overseers, quite a bit.

The figure 1.3, identified as Buserian by Plentonius (and apparently never contested) wears a golden hat with a white rim, a gold-hemmed red coat (toga?) over a gold-hemmed white skirt, and golden boots.

 

3 hours ago, Sub said:
  • Do LM cultists have magical means to gain secrets from history, aside from personally engaging in heroquests, or learning indirectly from those who did?

Yes - in RQG they have rune magic to read the history of an object (Knowledge), or of a place (Reconstruction), for a (random? informed?) real-time equivalent time. The time limits for Reconstruction are a lot clearer than those for Knowledge.

 

3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

i've got a headache now.

I definitely would not classify Buserian, the Brown Man and Lhankor Mhy as "subcults" of a monomythic nameless scholar god.

It is no worse mash-up than Alkor, Shargash, Tolat, Jagrekriand, Vorthan, and the identity is possibly better expressed as the area of a Venn-diagram than a "nameless deity". The core essence/being of the God of Knowledge being a meme feels right to me.

Lhankor Mhy of Kethaela is definitely lacking in Star Lore compared to Buserian, or even Zzabur. In Saird, the Star Lore of the Grey Sages may be somewhat better.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Basically, the new GoG says there are few meaningful divine differences between Lhankor Mhy and Buserian (apart from different allied cults), and the God Learners treated them as different names for the same God, and the GL are substantially correct.

How did the God Learners learn enough about Buserian for them to have enough data for an identity test with Lhankor Mhy?

Exploration of Kethaela and the lands beyond (Peloria) originated from Slontos, which established the Lhankor Mhy city of Lylket on the western shore of the Creek-Stream River estuary into the Choralinthor Bay.

The Lylket library became their operative center for Storm Barbarian lore, but they lost the original site in 907 when Shadow Plateau trolls overran the city emerging from secret tunnels connecting its rocky outcrop with the mighty Plateau and the Basements of the Obsidian Palace.

There appears to have been a continuation of the Lylket text collection, as some of the troll texts collected by Minaryth Purple bear the Lylket imprint. Possibly in the Nochet library? Possibly in some recesses of the Obsidian Palace before it was smashed apart by the death throes of the Lead Serpent?

The Lylket Lhankor Mhy librarians may have had their RuneQuest Sight awakened, but they operated from the Shadowlands, and already operating in the EWF beyond was fraught with risk of memetic corruption. And their specialty was trolls, not the sky.

There always was Nochet. But Dark Esrolia wasn't a trusted ally by either the EWF or Slontos. There are reports of "God Learner" activities as early as Vistikos Left-eye's excommunication and pursuit of the Waltzing and Hunting bands which led to the EWF, and the leaking of Drolgard's secret has been blamed on God Learners, too. But who were these Malkioni interfering with Theyalan knowledge? IMO they were from Slontos.

Their best access to Dara Happan lore would probably have been under the Sun Dragon Emperor - while the EWF control meant they were unable to alter the myths of Dara Happa, at least a passport into the EWF would give them access to the EWF-conquered libraries and librarians. Dragon influence in Dara Happa would have been moderate.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

It takes a similar course for a lot of deities. They have the same Divine spells (apart from allies), and both use sorcery (though the sorcery spells are substantially different -Buserian is much more into celestial magic). IO is a Lunarised version of Buserian, so has a different set of allied cults, and some access to Lunar Rune magic and Sorcery. 

Saird is of course the interface between the Orlanthi Lhankor Mhy knowledge and Dara Happan Buserian knowledge, and probably has been already prior to the EWF.

There's also the City of 10,000 Magicians as a possible place for synthesizing the librarian-sorcerer deities.

9 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Nonetheless, I would not reasonably classify them as subcults of the same deity because there's no deity there. I mean, I guess you could say LM and IO are Storm and Moon variants of Buserian (he's older, he gets precedent imho), but... idk, man. It burns a little.

There is an Otherworld library there, though. And the concept of the Lhankor Mhy overcult might be similar to the concept of Sedenya.

 

9 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Also, as much as it's useful to think of the monomyth, context is for kings. The details are what make the stories interesting. Sure, Irippi Ontor is a bearded dude who knows stuff, but his story is not the same as the story of Buserian and their magics reflect that fairly significantly. Buserian was meticulous, ascetic and kind, discovered astronomy, compassionately saved people in the Darkness, created comparative theology. Irippi Ontor was a power-hungry disgraced reckless thief who was tossed out of not just Buserian's priesthood, but Lhankor Mhy's as well. He's a mad scientist.

Irrippi Ontor may have been of Carmanian origin, like Yanafal, or from any of the other previously conquered territories of Bisodashan's empire. That gives him another access at Theyalan-style Lhankor Mhy, as that cult didn't stop spreading across the Bright Empire when the cult of Orlanth was suppressed. Carmania or the Pelanda that came before may be the place where Buserian and Lhankor Mhy knowledge were interwoven, if Saird wasn't. Alakoring removed EWF influences from the Pelorian Orlanthi. They joined the anti-EWF alliance after their oppressor Isgangdrang had been slain in Aggar.

There may have been an active conversion of Lhankor Mhy libraries into Buserian ones in the repeated purges of Orlanthi (or draconic Orlanthi) footprints in Peloria. Prior to Syrantir's conquests in Pelanda, that place had Yelmic overseers and bureaucrats even under local dynasties.

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Interesting, as Irrippi Ontor used to be a Lunarised version of Lhankor Mhy. Buserian makes sense, as the Lunar Empire is also the Dara Happan Empire.

Buserian makes sense in Saird and Carmania, too. While Carmania has its own zzaburi (courtesy of Syranthir), the anti-EWF merger under Nadar the Avenger's daughter and Sarenesh would have brought a new wave of Dara Happan bureaucrats all over non-draconic Peloria.

At some point, "scribe" became synonymous with "Buseri", as much as "scribe" had become synonymous with "Lhankor Mhyte" earlier.

Yuthuppan Starseers probably are the purest form of the earliest Buserian cult surviving, with the butcher function probably split off the writing a long time ago. They might refer to themselves as Zatori?

The building plan of Yuthuppa is that of the city of Senthoros, brought to Anaxial by Buserian.

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On 8/23/2019 at 7:31 AM, jajagappa said:

Theodopolous may, in fact, be confusing and conflating events. All know that the Brown Men first came a generation earlier and were the cause of the celebrated Scholar's Riots which drove them from the temple and the city. That a few Brown Men arrived with the Lunar delegation is true, but all of the temple's schools, even the Charterists, closed their doors to these new arrivals. And, of course, the Empire did not capture the city.

"It's an allegory! All allegory! Where it veers from what you think is the Truth read other wise for inner clarity, what I call my _no prize_!" - Geleron Green

For example one of the things that's interesting is the way cognate cults compete and consolidate within a society like species in an ecological niche or corporations today. Once upon a time a buserian sect emerged to amass Star Knowledge, at first with special tents and then towers. A sorcery man found his way to what was probably Vingkot country and set up shop. The Carmanians eventually evolve their own viziers from archaic Fronelan forms. 

When any of these vocations are working properly to process and apply information within the society, they tend to develop into parallel bureaucratic structures. The smartest ones naturally work hard to study each other, seeing a rich local source of lore to tap. The defensive ones tried to shut themselves off while proclaiming that their lore was the only good lore, foreign lore is inferior and a waste of time. But in other places the lore and the bureaucracies converge.

Then in situations where none of the known lore is working for you, you go outside the box. The Brown Man drifted across as many schools as he could. None of them helped. He kept digging. A few centuries later, people who followed in his footsteps have largely replaced the buserians in imperial society (compete and consolidate) except in specialized and explicitly traditional contexts. Buserian had to retreat to make room for the new way that clearly did it better and which by the way the goddess adores.

They have a different mix of knowledge tools up there, more star lore and a lot of that wild old henotheism that Syranthir brought in. The fractional truth calculus is brilliant in some applications and useless in others. But as they institutionalize, they ultimately just move into the old library spaces knowledge competitors leave behind. The bureaucracy recapitulates itself. Meet the new beard, functionally identical to the old beard even though it may be styled differently to fit the "head" or society it's attached to.

Luckily they all hate outright Knowledge Theft, whatever that means for you.

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1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Meet the new beard, functionally identical to the old beard even though it may be styled differently to fit the "head" or society it's attached to.

I mean, Irippi Ontor's runes in older publications (de facto, since we don't have them in current publications) were Moon and ... Illusion. How does that play out in terms of an Ur-Scribe?

I guess kind of like Ompalam and others as Tyrant rather than Righteous King or Emperor?

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48 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I mean, Irippi Ontor's runes in older publications (de facto, since we don't have them in current publications) were Moon and ... Illusion. How does that play out in terms of an Ur-Scribe?

That's part of it. You've met derrideans. A new scribe comes in with a system that promises to be more expansive, incorporating truth with illusion, reconciling fundamental oppositions. Love the rhetoric or hate the rhetoric: the motorcycle needs enough zen to get across the country somehow.

The empire is the IO motorcycle. Across the water, Ompalam, for all its grossness, was the way they found to get through their particular problem. We naturally want to fight against it. It's the hero wars. I hope we win.

I don't think I've ever seen the paperwork excommunicating the Brown Man. Wonder what his final flounce was.

 

Edited by scott-martin
"zen"
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3 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Planetary Son of the East is Zator, and he is the celestial son who calls out the stars from the Pit (aka Stormgate).

This action may be behind the Buserian Star Lore (e.g. per p.646 in the Guide).

Pillar Lore, the complete celestial lore now kept in Yuthuppa (a city founded only after the Flood).

The original city of the Pillar would have been the Celestial Court of the Spike, or perhaps Abgammon or Senthoros.

IMO Zator is the chronicler and probably author/master of Celestial Lore, the origin of the stars. He disappears into the Pit, never to be seen again, and thus becomes the Invisible God of the Dara Happans.

As IMO Buserian is his much later incarnation/aspect, of the flood era. Buserian brings the plans for Anaxial's Ark from Senthoros, not Abgammon.

From what I can tell, Buserian likely gets (re)introduced to Dara Happa at around the Star Time/the Jenarong dynasty by the Stargazers. (The Star Time, GRoY 70, as well as the earlier story of Buserian on page 65-66)

The Stargazers seem to be Pentans (hence coming with Jenarong) and received the secrets of the sky from Pole Star at Polestar Mountain, which they believe to be the remnant of the Pillar. (GtG 372)

Polestar Mountain may be the original location of Abgammon or Senthoros (and it seems to almost be treated as an axis mundi), and amongst the pentans he probably picked up his cattle sacrificing role, and his frame was originally a nomad tent (The identification of Pole Star to the central pole of a nomad's kert is made on page 67 of GRoY, and claimed as the origin of his name)

It's possible that Buserian is a polestar god, and that his sorcerers are still found in Pent among the solar tribes. (It's even possible that HQ1's Denbitos may still exist, and while mistaken for being a shaman, is actually the Grazelander god of sorcery and scribes. Dealing with strange spirits through their strange magic.)

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9 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

From what I can tell, Buserian likely gets (re)introduced to Dara Happa at around the Star Time/the Jenarong dynasty by the Stargazers. (The Star Time, GRoY 70, as well as the earlier story of Buserian on page 65-66)

The Stargazers seem to be Pentans (hence coming with Jenarong) and received the secrets of the sky from Pole Star at Polestar Mountain, which they believe to be the remnant of the Pillar. (GtG 372)

Polestar Mountain may be the original location of Abgammon or Senthoros (and it seems to almost be treated as an axis mundi), and amongst the pentans he probably picked up his cattle sacrificing role, and his frame was originally a nomad tent (The identification of Pole Star to the central pole of a nomad's kert is made on page 67 of GRoY, and claimed as the origin of his name)

It's possible that Buserian is a polestar god, and that his sorcerers are still found in Pent among the solar tribes. (It's even possible that HQ1's Denbitos may still exist, and while mistaken for being a shaman, is actually the Grazelander god of sorcery and scribes. Dealing with strange spirits through their strange magic.)

Rather than being a polestar God, particularly given a Pentan context, I would propose the tent pole being a shamanic axis mundi, down which celestial spiritual truth is drawn. 

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14 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

It's possible that Buserian is a polestar god, and that his sorcerers are still found in Pent among the solar tribes.

It's interesting to consider that the Pentans wouldn't have interacted with the "Cattle Sacrificer" - an obvious source of wisdom, see haruspices! - as sorcerers, but as shamans. It's doubly interesting because Pole Star is a really crucial deity throughout Eurasian shamanism, which Arkat wouldn't have missed when writing about shamanism...

1 minute ago, Ali the Helering said:

Rather than being a polestar God, particularly given a Pentan context, I would propose the tent pole being a shamanic axis mundi, down which celestial spiritual truth is drawn. 

But the Pole Star is usually really important and the tentpole is often the bottom bit of it...

Edited by Qizilbashwoman
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9 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

It's interesting to consider that the Pentans wouldn't have interacted with the "Cattle Sacrificer" - an obvious source of wisdom, see haruspices! - as sorcerers, but as shamans. It's doubly interesting because Pole Star is a really crucial deity throughout Eurasian shamanism, which Arkat wouldn't have missed when writing about shamanism...

But the Pole Star is usually really important and the tentpole is often the bottom bit of it...

It is a matter of the context - theistic or animistic.  The pole star tengri of the Eurasian steppe is spirit rather than god, in so far as the division has any meaning.

  I would see Buserian as a vibrant spirit of the steppe adopted as a god by the settled wimps of civilised Dara Happa. 

No personal prejudice involved 😇

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