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Lloyd Dupont

Parry: Shield or Weapon

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Do you need a shield to parry? Can you parry with your weapon? (I'd say yes)

What's the benefit of parrying with a shield then? (I'd say maybe can parry projectile as well?)

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42 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Do you need a shield to parry? Can you parry with your weapon? (I'd say yes)

What's the benefit of parrying with a shield then? (I'd say maybe can parry projectile as well?)

Yes, you can parry with a weapon. You cannot parry with a weapon on the same rank at which you attack however. With a shield (or offhand weapon) you can parry on the same rank as you attack.

Shields provide the added benefit of cover from missiles (not parrying)

SDLeary

Edited by SDLeary

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Cover doesn't work so well without localisation..

mmm.. I guess I will keep partially using locations then! (was planning to use it for wound threshold anyway)

Thanks Leary!

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2 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Cover doesn't work so well without localisation..

mmm.. I guess I will keep partially using locations then! (was planning to use it for wound threshold anyway)

Thanks Leary!

You could just implement a generic "cover" rule.  You need one anyway, for firing at people behind... y'know... cover.

Like trees.

And battlements.

And shields...  😉

 

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Problem with modern BRP is that shields require a specific skill to be used, and you can attack and parry with your main hand with the same chance of success.

Older editions separated attack and parry skills for each weapon. So, you could have 75% attack skill and 25% parry skill with your sword, and 65% with your shield. In such a case, using your shield is a no-brainer...

However, having separate attack and parry skills was not a very good rule.

In RuneQuest, non-critical parry only reduces damage, by an amount depending on the weapon used, and kite shields have big armor values. Also, weapons break, and shields are easier to break and replace. Neverheless, I will not use a shield in RQG either, where attack and parry skills don't exist, if my shield skill is more than 5% lower than my main weapon skill.

Pendragon doesn't have a shield skill, but it means you use your shield with your main hand skill, which may seems silly.

Edited by Mugen

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29 minutes ago, Mugen said:

However, having separate attack and parry skills was not a very good rule.

Why? It worked well during 40 years. Current rule is another paradigm, but because it is the choice of the designers, not because the previous rule was bad or didn't work.

31 minutes ago, Mugen said:

Neverheless, I will not use a shield in RQG either, where attack and parry skills don't exist, if my shield skill is more than 5% lower than my main weapon skill.

Even with the new rule, I continue to use a shield because:

1 - It has more HP than my sword.

2 - If it breaks, I can still attack and parry. If I parry with my sword and it breaks, I can not attack, nor parry anymore.

3 - The cover it provide against missiles and projectiles, the bane of RQ characters.

7 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Cover doesn't work so well without localisation..

Right.

8 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

What's the benefit of parrying with a shield then? (I'd say maybe can parry projectile as well?)

In addition to SDLeary's answer, shields, at least large ones, have more HP/AP than most weapons and are more durable and provide a better protection.

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59 minutes ago, Kloster said:

1 - It has more HP than my sword.

That's how I remembered it in RQ3, but RQG pre-gen characters have broadsword and shields with the same AP value, 12.

59 minutes ago, Kloster said:

2 - If it breaks, I can still attack and parry. If I parry with my sword and it breaks, I can not attack, nor parry anymore.

But if you miss your parry because of the difference in skills, you're very likely to lose a limb.

Personally, I prefer to have a broadsword in my off hand than a shield. If the one in my main hand breaks, I can use it as a replacement, and gain a bonus attack, even if it has a very low chance of success.

59 minutes ago, Kloster said:

3 - The cover it provide against missiles and projectiles, the bane of RQ characters.

I forgot two important words here : "in melee".

Edited by Mugen

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2 minutes ago, Mugen said:

That's how I remembered it in RQ3, but RQG pre-gen characters have broadsword and shields with the same AP value, 12.

RQG large shield (the one my character is using) has 16 HP versus 12 for the Broadsword (in fact, for most of the swords: even the greatsword has 12 HP. Only the rapier has 8 and the rhompaia 10). You're right, in RQIII, the difference was even more favoring the shield, especially for the smallest swords (iirc).

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8 minutes ago, Mugen said:

But if you miss your parry because of the difference in skills, you're very likely to lose a limb.

Very true. This is why it is a matter of personal feelings and also depends on the difference between the 2 skills: the higher the skill, the more the shield protects versus the sword:

If shield parry is 30% and sword parry is 50%, the average protection is 16x0.3=4.8 points for the shield and 12x0.5=6 points for the sword: 1.2 point in favor of the sword.

if shield parry is 75% and sword parry is 95%, the average protection is 16x0.75=12 points for the shield and 12x0.95=11.4 for the sword: 0.6 point in favor of the shield, even with 20% less in skill.

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3 hours ago, Kloster said:

if shield parry is 75% and sword parry is 95%, the average protection is 16x0.75=12 points for the shield and 12x0.95=11.4 for the sword: 0.6 point in favor of the shield, even with 20% less in skill.

Sure, but averages hide the fact you're going to miss your parry 1 time out of 4. Even with a parry skill of 90% and an average protection 3 points above the sword's (14.4), you'd fail one time out of 10. I think it outweighs the fact kite shields are better parry weapons.

And, again, I can have a second broadsword in off-hand, with which I can attack at 47%. Though you might say that attacking with the shield may be a better option, provided your SR is low enough. :D

Edited by Mugen

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2nd sword would be hard skill anyway, because 2 sword got in the way of each other, proof: it was not done that way historically and sword practitioner do complaint about it being unpractical! ;)

 

maybe long sword and dagger

Edited by Lloyd Dupont

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13 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

2nd sword would be hard skill anyway, because 2 sword got in the way of each other, proof: it was not done that way historically! ;)

There are a few historical two swords fighting styles, the most famous being Miyamoto Musashi's Niten ichiryu.

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13 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Cover doesn't work so well without localisation..

 

Elric! had a percent chance a shield blocks a ranged attack:

Small shields 15%

Medium Shields 30%

Large Shields 60%

 

Add +30% if the character is ducked behiund

 

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19 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

I was thinking to use normal shield chance to block missile attack...

no need to worry about localisation cover... 

I don't remember for BRP itself, but for all the BRP games I have played (except perhaps Superworld), you can not parry or block missile, only projectile weapons (i.e. thrown weapons). What shield can do is to stay passively in the way of an incoming missile. In that case, either you use localized damage, and depending on it's size, the shield covers(and thus protects) a number of contiguous locations, or you don't and the rule described by el_octogono can (or does, I don't remember) apply.

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you right , just checked that...

 

although.. on one hand I feel you should be able to parry arrows better... in war the turtle formation was very efficient at stopping an incoming arrow cloud...

at any rate, I might create a stunt that allow hero to parry missile at normal chances instead...

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1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

I was thinking to use normal shield chance to block missile attack...

no need to worry about localisation cover...

Sorry. Those percent chances are for a passive block. No need to use a reactive action.

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The swedish rpg Hjältarnas tid uses the rule that you can parry missile attacks with shields ordinary meele weapons can parry in meele.. Thougt that was kind of easy to remember

And made shields more useful.

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3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

you right , just checked that...

 

although.. on one hand I feel you should be able to parry arrows better... in war the turtle formation was very efficient at stopping an incoming arrow cloud...

at any rate, I might create a stunt that allow hero to parry missile at normal chances instead...

The only BRP rule I remember enabling to parry arrows is the 'Arrow Cutting' in RQIII's Land of Ninja. It i stored some 200 klicks away so I can't check it, but I know it exists. The turtle formation you spoke of is passive screening, not a parry. For the stunt part, I don't play games that include them, so no comments from me on that part.

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11 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

I was thinking to use normal shield chance to block missile attack...

no need to worry about localisation cover...

In the presented case, he isn't talking about localization cover either. No localizations in Stormbringer.

SDLeary

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You can quite easily borrow Mythras' treatment of skills and shields - one or more Combat Style skills cover a group of weapons known, and shields are treated as weapons with specific traits, one being 'ranged parry' so you can both parry missiles with a shield and also use them to passively ward a number of locations, if you're using hit locations. Mythras Imperative is a free download and has the core combat system detailed. 

Combat Styles are as broad or as narrow as the campaign setting wants, so a Roman Legionnaire might include all the weapons he is equipped and trained with, a barbarian hunter might know how to use a spear, dagger and bow.

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I like weapon skill in fact.. (until next time I change my mind again) :P Having the shield issue is not quite the issue here....

I was planning to get rid of localisation as well. But my player like them and I was thinking to keep it for major wound.. so will try that!

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