How to fix Mongoose RuneQuest/Glorantha

[frogspawner]

<Summarized/Continued from the "Chaosium Supporting BRP" thread...>

I bought "I am Mongoose" by Mathew Sprange last night from DriveThruRPG. I read a bit before becoming overwhelmed by...the lack of humility...

One thing that struck me (again, from a short read) is how much Mongoose's strategy is driven by volume: Keep costs down, know that you will sell a certain number of each kind of book, increase sales by increasing the number of issuances you do each month.

CLearly quality is in there, and they have generated some nice stuff, but there's a strong bias toward volume. In retrospect, this is probably why the RQ playtest was botched -- it was just taking too long to surface and discuss the options and was messing up the production plans.

Chaosium has the cost down part nailed, but I think they need to start moving the dial more toward speed of publishing. Encouraging fans should be a great way to do it.

Steve

One thing I have noticed with the new Gloranthan works, is that Mongoose has failed to capture the subtle depth and essence of the Glorantha I originally saw defined in early works such as Cults of Prax. The new Mongoose works now feel like general contemporary fantasy.

The "soul" of Glorantha has been lost through making it a commodity.

The quality is there, but something special and unique was lost along the way.

...

True to a limited extent. The first books were a bit generic-flavoured although full of nice game ideas, but when Jeff K, Loz and Shannon Appel dropped in the Old Way was restored.

Absolutely true. The problem stems from the bad rules, which new authors cannot fix, no matter how 'soulful' their contributions.

I'm only judging by the SRD, because that was plenty to put me off. Every rules-design decision Mongoose made went the wrong way, for me. Particularly trying to simplify HPs and Init - worthy aims - but they replaced 'em with something even more bizarrely inexplicable - doh! And the infamous 'what actually happens in combat?' opposed roll confusion. But worst of all, the dire, insensitive and video-gamey 'physical Runes' abomination. Bleurch. :eek:

I must admit that I think the Glorantha Second Age book is a contender for one of the best Gloranthan supplements period. Dara Happa stirs is simply superb and the Alkoth chapter is genuinely creepy. The Dragonewt book and the Aldryami book are as good as anything that's been published in Glorantha for RuneQuest and Blood of Orlanth is a wonderfully ambitious campaign.

From my point of view, the breakages due to Mongoose's chaotic publishing system actually inspired me to come up with my own fixes and I tend to find, over time and with actual play that I tend to move back to Mongoose's version from mine. Can't say I'm a Mongoose fanboy as they are overly fixated on the bottom line in my opinion but I can't argue that they have managed to survive problems that would have sunk most other games companies and continue to produce erratically brilliant products.

I think their rune system went horribly wrong initially - especially for Glorantha. Ironically, the latest work on runes in HQ2.0 shows how easy it is to tweak the Mongoose system into something that is genuinely interesting; something that Loz started in the GM's Handbook. Personally I think this is a boom time for Glorantha that equals anything that came before it.

Must say I'm pretty happy with the recent Glorantha stuff too. I do hope that MRQ2 will be a better system though.

SGL.

That'd be easy. But would Chaosium let them have the license...?

You're not far off. The official book was if anything, worse than the SRD. The fact that the rules were changed as the book was released and that none of the examples were correct didn't help the game much. I have heard from some Mongoose employees that the early drafts of MRQ were much closer to RQ, until one of Mongoose's bigwigs took over the project. That said individual had written a lot of D20 stuff in the past showed. Many of the problems that MRQ had/has were pointed out by the fans/playtesters but they were ingored.

I generally agree with the views on MRQ rules. Although in this case I was mainly referring to gaming world content, specifically the Gloranthan content (and I would not even consider myself a Gloranthophile). The depth of The Travels of Biturian Varosh is one of the main factors for me that first separated RuneQuest (2nd Edition) from D&D (and other 'conventional' RPG worlds).

I think that the ideas for the physical rune magic rules are good, however for me, they break the feel of Glorantha and are not an improvement on spirit/battle magic for a Gloranthan setting. They also undermine the original rune connection of divine magic.

Even so, in general, I do like the concepts behind them.

When I next run a generic fantasy game, I am planning to use a variation of the "physical rune" rules. However it will be a version of the rules which is closer to the rules of their original author.

Yes, I got that.

You do yourself a disservice. Seems like you've more feeling for Glorantha than Sprange (and perhaps Stafford, these days...)

Absolutely!

Yes. So much so, I couldn't help the nagging feeling that was the deliberate aim.

They're not unsalvageable. Back when I visited the MRQ Forum, I spent lots of time suggesting tweaks/interpretations for the 'physical runes' rules that could have made them Glorantha-compatible. What are yours? (Perhaps we should have a new thread for that...).

In fact, physical runes can be a good idea in some settings. Next episode of Stupor Mundi will contain a Futhark rune adaptation of Mongoose Rune Magic.

Nevertheless, the new HeroQuest rules will have a rune-based approach. I hope they really fixed what is wrong in the original approach.

I use a version that is fairly close to the original version and to tell the truth it doesn't work that well. What you tend to get is PCs concentrating on certain runes, building up a large number of a single rune and being able to cast high-pointage spells based on that rune.

If I GMed a RQ campaign again then I would go back to RQ3-style Spirit Magic and use Runes as an extra layer of magical power that would assist spellcasting, not be as common but not be overpowering.

I think Matthew Sprange would be first to admit that he's no Glorantha buff. But to suggest that Greg Stafford is out of touch with a world that he's spent more than 30 years developing (and still is) is ... quite incredible. Still, Your Glorantha Will Vary. Might be worth remembering that.

It wasn't. The aim was to make runes more of a physical focus for the game, thus reflecting its name. I do agree that chasing physical manifestations of runes isn't the way they should work in Glorantha; but it wasn't a deliberate act of sabotage (which is what you're suggesting, Frogspawner). For what its worth, I'm looking very closely at how runes need to work in preparation for something I'm working on Glorantha-wise.

And no. I won't share my ideas here; they're not finished yet. But just so you know that the subject and mechanics are being looked at.

Edited March 16, 2009 by frogspawner

[lawrence.whitaker]

Thanks Frogspawner; better to have a separate thread.

Really though, this is a debate for the Mongoose boards. But, as we're here, here are some thoughts from me.

1. Rule anomalies. No need to list every single one, but combat, rune magic and sorcery (divine magic to a lesser extent) need some TLC.

2. Glorantha. Cults (structure, runes, magic, and how they work); some drawing together of disparate elements into a single source document. Correction of some inaccuracies that found their way into the Glorantha: The Second Age book.

Both these areas will be getting attention. I cannot and will not say more at this stage. What I can tell you is that the forthcoming 'Guilds, Factions and Cults' starts the ball rolling vis a vis cults and magic; but there will be more. That book should be out round about May/June.

Rosen McStern mentioned how HeroQuest is handling runes and cults; its a pertinent point. I'm part of the HQ design team in that regard, so I'm working towards consistency of approach and application between both systems. Different mechanics, obviously, but the ethos is the same. And its essentially this: If you join a cult and rise within it, you gain runes. Runes are powers within a god's nature, so as you develop your relationship with your cult, you become more like your god, chanelling his or her magic and becoming capable of acting in the ways they did during the God Time - both in the mundane world and when HeroQuesting.

One other thing, which comes back to Dragonewt's comment on MRQ not capturing the 'feel' and 'magic' of the old RQ2 era; I can see his point, but again, I'd say that the design philosophy isn't to replicate what was in the old classics like 'Griffin Mountain'. Second Age Glorantha's a different place, for a start, but as one of the authors for Glorantha, the aim is to try to bring a different feel, hopefully with its own magic. One of the criticisms often levelled at Glorantha is how impenetrable it can be for a newcomer to get into it. Glorantha's accessibility will drive its longevity, as long as it caters for the old grognards and new fans. That means striking a balance and doing things in a different way. I'm certainly keen to do that, and have been playing RQ and in Glorantha for two decades. Books like 'Dara Happa Stirs' aim to bring that sense of wonder back, but in ways that newcomers won't find daunting or clouded in the immense esoterica that has grown up around Glorantha and, sometimes, clouds and intimidates, what should be a fun game setting.

There's room for both schools - but the execution needs to be different. There's a mission to achieve that.

Lawrence.

[frogspawner]

I think Matthew Sprange would be first to admit that he's no Glorantha buff. But to suggest that Greg Stafford is out of touch with a world that he's spent more than 30 years developing (and still is) is ... quite incredible. Still, Your Glorantha Will Vary. Might be worth remembering that.

Mr Sprange is too late - we've already 'admitted' that for him. He's a D&D man - and, as has been said by others, it shows.

Mr Stafford may not be 'out of touch' with the Glorantha he invented all those years ago - and then gave to us, as he said - but what I suggested was that he appears to have lost the 'feeling' for it. (The bolt-on cults he invented for HeroWars were just daft, IMO). It's more a case of 'His Glorantha Will Vary'. Clearly he wants to make money from it.

(BTW, if you really find it incredible anyone could hold such opinions, then your imagination may be wearing out...)

It wasn't. The aim was to make runes more of a physical focus for the game, thus reflecting its name. I do agree that chasing physical manifestations of runes isn't the way they should work in Glorantha; but it wasn't a deliberate act of sabotage (which is what you're suggesting, Frogspawner). For what its worth, I'm looking very closely at how runes need to work in preparation for something I'm working on Glorantha-wise.

Yet I did get that feeling. Just paranoia - probably! Yes, I'm sure an aim was to make Runes into mere 'treasure' - something D&D-ers can understand.

And no. I won't share my ideas here; they're not finished yet. But just so you know that the subject and mechanics are being looked at.

Pity. This forum is for sharing ideas. Not just advertising your product.

[RosenMcStern]

This yahoo! group contains some interesting ideas and polls. I have not worked more about it for many months, but some of the ideas expressed are rather interesting.

d100glorantha : Glorantha (Third Age) with D100

Frogspawner, Loz is not advertising anything. There are such things as Non-Disclosure Agreements in the gaming industry, and he should not discuss the work he is doing for Mongoose (or Issaries) in a public forum. Which does not mean he cannot listen to our advice if it is sensible.

I do not know the proposed rule mechanics for runes in the new HeroQuest system as I missed all conventions last year, but seeing HeroQuest and RuneQuest converge more would not displease me.

[frogspawner]

Frogspawner, Loz is not advertising anything. There are such things as Non-Disclosure Agreements in the gaming industry, and he should not discuss the work he is doing for Mongoose (or Issaries) in a public forum.

Well, he said won't say anything, rather than can't. But my previous post crossed with his, and since he now has shared some thoughts after all, I was obviously being overly harsh. <insert excuse about being so wound up by physical runes here>

Sorry Mr Whitaker. Thanks for your efforts on behalf of all Glorantha fans.

[frogspawner]

... seeing HeroQuest and RuneQuest converge more would not displease me.

And seeing BRP & MRQ converge would not displease me - so long as MRQ moved most!

Frogspawner, Loz is not advertising anything.

Hmmm...

But a guy's gotta eat. Let's just do what we can to get it right.

[dragonewt]

Rosen McStern mentioned how HeroQuest is handling runes and cults; its a pertinent point. I'm part of the HQ design team in that regard, so I'm working towards consistency of approach and application between both systems. Different mechanics, obviously, but the ethos is the same. And its essentially this: If you join a cult and rise within it, you gain runes. Runes are powers within a god's nature, so as you develop your relationship with your cult, you become more like your god, chanelling his or her magic and becoming capable of acting in the ways they did during the God Time - both in the mundane world and when HeroQuesting.

The way I see the runes or the original Glorantha and RuneQuest is as follows. Which is similar to what you say, but perhaps subtly different.

The runes formed the strength's of a character by what a character did, who (gods/spirits, allies, cults, nations, etc...) they did it for, and the character's association with particular rune 'elements'. I did not see the runes a some token magic item; but more of a definition of a hero and its association to the game world through it's actions and choices. A character gained status in cults (or as an individual), completed quests/adventures for some (rune oriented) cause, and through their relation with the runes/aspects/elements, developed power and influence which were augmented by that association. Characters who associated and were allied with opposing runes were usually (not always) the 'enemy'. Power status is achieved within the sphere of several runes with the benefits that the allied status and associations provided.

Therefore, I see that the runes were (are) a core part of the game (mainly from a Gloranthan perspective), and a strong and ever present component that shaped and defined a character by the character's influence, allies and direct manipulation by association of rune 'elements'.

In addition to "power by association", the runes also helped provide back story and character definition the closer a character became involved in a rune's sphere. Think of examples (in RQ2 and CoP) that use Ruric, and how he changed from a 'neutral' nobody to a full on Yelmalion Light Lord.

The 'runes' are strongly present in the play of the game (RQ2), and sometimes deeper than many might be aware of, without the need to be a simple to comprehend 'physical' or tangible item.

[dragonewt]

I can see his point, but again, I'd say that the design philosophy isn't to replicate what was in the old classics like 'Griffin Mountain'.

Are you referring to the same Griffin Mountain that made plenty of references to the Second Age, and thereby helped define it (eg: the forming of Balazar)?

This would also be the same Grififn Mountain that pushed and defined an industry standard, both in content, depth and interrelations. Both Rudy Kraft and Paul Jaquays found the project and Greg demanding, however, in the end Greg helped them to maintain a standard that they might not have appreciated at the time.

In contrast, this is why they like likes of "Duck Pond" and "Duck Tower" were only published as Gateway publications. The adventures might have contained temples to Humakt, Uz, and other Gloranthan trappings, however demonstrated use of these references only displayed a shallow understanding of Glorantha.

[deleriad]

I've been running MRQ in Glorantha for nearly a year now with, mostly, players who are both new to RQ and Glorantha.

I would say that the problems with MRQ's publication model in the first year are well known and that's not much point rehashing them here.

There are legacy issues in rules as well. However, with the specific point of how well MRQ runs Glorantha, I would say it either currently does or potentially does run Glorantha better than older versions of RQ. That's going to be contentious, I know, but in my opinion it comes from two factors based around magic and runes.

1. Glorantha was never meant to be as rich in magic as RQ2/RQ3 made it out to be. When you look at RQ2/3 stats with barmaids having 10 points of battle/spirit magic it's clear that this simply doesn't reflect any kind of 'canon.' MRQ, possibly by accident, does not feature the same amount of magic prevalence - although anyone can use magic it now requires more effort.

2. The fact that there is cross-over between HQ and RQ authors means that there seems to be more joined up thinking - especially when it comes to runes in society.

The caveat is that MRQ Rune Magic, taken RAW from the core books, is tedious and wrong-headed, especially when applied to Glorantha. Add to that the breakages with runic associations and rune spells and what you have is a system that can't be run in Glorantha without modification.

However, the rune magic system in MRQ does do two important things.

1. It explicitly ties magical effects into runes;

2. requires a magic user to have a relationship with a rune or entity in order to cast magic.

Once you take those two steps, Gloranthan rune magic starts to make sense - potentially more sense than RQ2/3.

My house rules for Glorantha is that there are three types of relationship that a Gloranthan can have with a rune:

1. affinity - the most basic

2. integration - as per MRQ but also allowing the possibility of integrating without a physical rune through a cult/worship.

3. mastery.

In my Glorantha, everyone is born with one or two affinities based on their culture and background. E.g most Orlanthi males are born with air and/or mobility affinities. In strict game terms, this is simply saying that each character gets one two runecasting skills as part of their culture and profession. Runecasting with an affinity is limited to 2 Mag spells.

Moreover, each rune relationship is a two-way effect. If you have an integrated air rune then it tends to push you towards being blustery, rash, brave, reckless etc. If a player wants their character to act in significantly non-runic ways then you must make a Persistence test opposed by the appropriate Runecasting skill in order to act against your runic nature.

That ended up being longer than I meant, but what I wanted to spell out is that for all its flaws, MRQ's rune magic system seems to have the potential to be as flavourful and Gloranthan as the HQ take on it and therefore fit Glorantha better than older editions of RQ.

[dragonewt]

I think Matthew Sprange would be first to admit that he's no Glorantha buff. But to suggest that Greg Stafford is out of touch with a world that he's spent more than 30 years developing (and still is) is ... quite incredible. Still, Your Glorantha Will Vary. Might be worth remembering that.

I don't know much, however my perception is that Greg's view of his creation has changed subtly over the years. Perhaps some of this is personal change, or he has found better ways to express his original ideas, or marketing needs (repositioning a product, or a fresh look), or the influence of other writers on Greg. I am aiming for an educated guess here, but might be wildly inaccurate.

I hear of discussions regarding subtle reworkings of the myths, names of gods and so on. Some people like it, and some don't.

Some people like the newer "Braveheart; the RPG" feeling (Sartar rebels), where as other do not.

No matter how the external nature of the content has changed, in my view, Greg has always maintained a certain level of depth and core strength (this the important point I am trying to make). Compare Xena with Odysseus.

On a lighter topic, I plan to to have a "300; the RPG" moment in a Gloranthan Orlanthi rebel game I am running...

"This is SARTAR!!!!"

[RosenMcStern]

A really good contribution, Deleriad. You are right in both saying that Rune Magic does not fit Glorantha well as it is written now (messy rune associations, too much relevance of runes as items), and saying it can portray it better than RQ2/RQ3 potentially.

I would also remind everyone that in MRQ the generally-available magic system is no longer spirit magic, but Folk Magic, which is made of very simple cantrips limited to 2 point spells at most. The kind of spells a barmaid might know.

Finally, I have one question. If this is the relationship between magic, runes and the deities, then rune/spirit magic is the real measure of one's degree of identification with the gods and spirits (affinity in HeroQuest). Where does Divine Magic (which is not tied to runes) fit in this kind of model?

[deleriad]

Finally, I have one question. If this is the relationship between magic, runes and the deities, then rune/spirit magic is the real measure of one's degree of identification with the gods and spirits (affinity in HeroQuest). Where does Divine Magic (which is not tied to runes) fit in this kind of model?

Well purely my take on the matter is that where rune magic derives directly from the runes, divine magic derives directly from the deity. However, a deity is defined in part by their runes. (Or the runes are derived from deities depending on your mythology.) Therefore there is a symbolic relationship between the types of runes associated with a deity and the types of magic they provide.

Therefore when you join a cult and become an initiate you gain access to two types of magic:

• God-flavoured rune magic and
  
• god magic.
  

For example, in my Glorantha, Humakt provides Bladesharp magic tied to the death rune and only usable on swords. This is a flavouring of rune magic.

Humakt also provides various divine magics which are great secrets of Humakt and are the result of his activities before time. These magics are so specific to Humakt that after each time you use them, you must rededicate yourself to Humakt in order to use them again.

Finally, in order to become an initiate or better, I require characters to "rune match." E.g. if you wish to become an initiate of Humakt you must already possess an affinity (or better) with Death or Truth. The rune you choose to match then becomes integrated into your soul through the initiation process.

This is borrowed mercilessly from what I know of HQ2.0 thinking and what I understand to be the most common interpretation of how runes, gods and men relate to each other in Glorantha.

Just to say, that although this derives from MRQ, there is absolutely nothing preventing it from being used in BRP. All you need are the runes, spells and runecasting skill all of which are freely available in the SRD. There's no need to port any of the rest of MRQ over. You could also use different rune systems. I noticed you mentioning Futhark (I think) a while ago and you could hang an identical system on Futhark and the Norse gods fairly straightforwardly.

Edited March 16, 2009 by deleriad
added last para

[soltakss]

Finally, I have one question. If this is the relationship between magic, runes and the deities, then rune/spirit magic is the real measure of one's degree of identification with the gods and spirits (affinity in HeroQuest). Where does Divine Magic (which is not tied to runes) fit in this kind of model?

In my mind, Rune Magic is related to what the Deity is, Divine Magic relates to what the Deity does, or did.

So, Humakt gets Hand of Death as a Death Rune God but Oath because of his God Time activity.

The problem is, the Rune Spells don't really tie up with the Runes themselves.

[deleriad]

While I'm at lunch...

Divine Magic system in MRQ. I think this needs precisely 1 fix.

1. Dedicated POW does not affect skills. i.e. the only effect of dedicated POW is having fewer personal Magic Points. This is pretty much standard in RQ anyway - I notice that Elric (by Loz) uses the rule.

I personally would add some extra changes:

Allowing the storage of multiple Fixed Magnitude spells. E.g. You can store multiple uses of Berserk through learning the magic at a higher Magnitude. e.g. Berserk Magnitude 6 represents three castings of Berserk. (Learning Berserk 6 would require a pilgrimage to a major temple, however, while you may be able to learn Berserk 2 at a local shrine.)

Multiplying the amount of divine magic that can be stored in dedicated POW. E.g. an acolyte can store 2 Mag of divine magic per 1 Dedicated POW, a priest 3 points and so on. (You could make an argument that this is actually some sort of legendary ability.)

Dedicating POW to your deity in order to join cults. This is pretty much the same as the Pact mechanism that Loz uses in Elric. In my games, an initiate dedicates 1 POW to their deity, an acolyte 2, priest 3 and so on.

What I wouldn't change.

Dedicated POW. This is a far better mechanic than I first thought. It is very flavourful (your Magic Points are holding a spell in place or being syphoned off to your god and so on) and a useful crunch enabler because it puts a hard limit on just what a person can do with their POW. Plus, in MRQ, stat gain is an order harder than it is in BRP.

Non-reusable divine magic. At first I went back to RQ3 because I thought it was silly having priests needing to re-sacrifice after each spell casting. However, making divine magic one-use to all brings community back into divine magic through economics and becomes more like Greg's stories where people must prepare their magic in advance.

The assumption behind this is as follows. There is a cost to learn a divine spell which is measured in money but actually represents goods and services sacrificed to the deity. When you pay a temple to learn a spell, the temple takes a cut but some of that "money" is "destroyed" as part of learning a spell. (I trade you wheat for spells....) Take this to Glorantha and imagine a clan with its God Speaker. The clan wishes the God Speaker to be able to cast lightning magic so they club together to provide the necessary resources. One great advantage to having a rune priest in your clan is that, basically, god gives him a discount thus when you support a priest you as a clan get a discount on magic as it were. If you allow reusable divine magic then that social link through economics is lost. Non-reusable divine magic gives a way of showing how a clan could become magically impoverished and, thus, links a priest's power with the success of his flock.

Now I don't think for one minute that the authors sat down and hashed all that out but for me it is a compelling argument for not allowing reusable divine magic for priests, despite 20+ years of playing exactly the reverse...

[frogspawner]

Glorantha was never meant to be as rich in magic as RQ2/RQ3 made it out to be. When you look at RQ2/3 stats with barmaids having 10 points of battle/spirit magic it's clear that this simply doesn't reflect any kind of 'canon.'

How magic-rich you play it is a campaign decision, not necessarily dependent on the rules. True, published adventures/etc did seem to give too many spells - for my taste, anyway (but it's easier to cross stuff out than add it in...).

Moreover, each rune relationship is a two-way effect. If you have an integrated air rune then it tends to push you towards being blustery, rash, brave, reckless etc. If a player wants their character to act in significantly non-runic ways then you must make a Persistence test opposed by the appropriate Runecasting skill in order to act against your runic nature.

I don't think the rules should prevent players doing things, even uncharacteristic things. Rather, I'd say there should be a mechaism to reward actions that are in-keeping with their religion (i.e 'runic' in this case).

One great advantage to having a rune priest in your clan is that, basically, god gives him a discount thus when you support a priest you as a clan get a discount on magic as it were.

Interesting. What discount, exactly?

[deleriad]

Interesting. What discount, exactly?

Basically, according to the rules a priest gets to learn magic cheaper; I forget the precise details. I interpret that as meaning that the amount you have to pay to your god as a priest is less rather than your peers in the church giving you a discount. It rather surprisingly fits with the attempts to make Gloranthan magic at least partially community-based in HQ.

When it comes to runes and behaviour I agree; if it fits in with play style then you can reward them with in-game benefits (e.g. more Improvement rolls, more Hero Points) and/or use mechanics that represent them having to act against their nature. I just happen to quite like GMing the runes as it were. E.g. When a character with a motion rune says he'll just stay here and look after the camp I am tempted to mention itchy feet, a bit of twitching and so on. I prefer a light touch but for those who like the equivalent of Personality traits in their games, having runic personality traits is a distinct option.

[RosenMcStern]

Allowing the storage of multiple Fixed Magnitude spells.

Yup. You should be able to cast a non-progressive spell more than once per adventure. Possibly they meant it but did not phrase it well.

Multiplying the amount of divine magic that can be stored in dedicated POW. E.g. an acolyte can store 2 Mag of divine magic per 1 Dedicated POW, a priest 3 points and so on. (You could make an argument that this is actually some sort of legendary ability.)

I would rather go with a +x to Dedicated POW, gained as a legendary ability. This will be included as a Legendary Ability for Teutonic Knights (or Knights Templar) in Stupor Mundi 2, but it will not be available before the end of 2009 (Rome takes precedence).

Dedicated POW. This is a far better mechanic than I first thought.

On the contrary, I liked it the first time I read the description. It needs tweaks like everything in MRQ, but the basic mechanics is good.

Non-reusable divine magic. At first I went back to RQ3 because I thought it was silly having priests needing to re-sacrifice after each spell casting.

We have been playing like this for 15 years now, and it works fine. Only difference is that a priest has easier access to a "recharge" for his spells (the discount you mentioned).

[frogspawner]

It rather surprisingly fits with the attempts to make Gloranthan magic at least partially community-based in HQ.

Mmm, spooky. Must be Fate at work...

I prefer a light touch but for those who like the equivalent of Personality traits in their games, having runic personality traits is a distinct option.

I'm just saying a 'Carrot' mechanism is preferable to a 'Stick'. (I've previously stated my personality traits mechanic, which I like to think is quite 'light touch', in another thread).

... in-game benefits (e.g. more Improvement rolls, more Hero Points)...

I'm reminded the potential to reward role-playing was one of the (very few) advantages I noticed the MRQ SRD had over RQ/BRP. (Again, though, it's a good idea implemented clumsily. Subjective handouts by the GM are too D&D-like, too easy to degrade into "you killed X kobolds, so you get Y experience pioints... I mean Improvement Rolls"). Another subject for this thread!

Only difference is that a priest has easier access to a "recharge" for his spells (the discount you mentioned).

Could you please explain to me the difference between 'easy-access recharge' and plain old re-usable Rune/Divine magic?

[deleriad]

Could you please explain to me the difference between 'easy-access recharge' and plain old re-usable Rune/Divine magic?

Can't speak for RosenMcStern's system but in straight MRQ a runepriest can cast a Consecrate and then pray to receive divine magic of Magnitude equal to or less than the Consecrate as if they were in the appropriate temple.*

Additionally, according to the main rulebook runepriests learn cult spells for half the normal cost. The details are slightly contradicted by Cults Vol I but basically I interpret this as saying that runepriests get half price divine magic.

Unlike RQ3 where, IIRC, you could pray for a day and spend a small amount to regain reusable spells, in MRQ you basically have to pray for the spell all over again which takes 1 day per mag and costs 100 silvers plus.

*I had forgotten about consecrate. Because it is a permanent spell a runepriest can journey to a major temple to learn Consecrate 8, take it home and cast it to create a centre of power. Although only runepriests can use it to pray for divine magic, it does allow them to pray for powerful divine magic without leaving their centre of power. An adventuring runepriest could, then, take some holy symbols with them and create a centre of power in the middle of the wilderness. Of course it still takes several days to pray for magic so it's not great for dungeoneering...

**Cunning priests learn Consecrate X, cast it then use it to pray to gain Consecrate X as well as any other X Magnitude spells.

[Trifletraxor]

As maybe the only one who've been banned from the Mongoose forums thrice, my opinions on the Mongoose RuneQuest rules and the early Gloranthan stuff is pretty clear. It stank. It has however improved greatly since that. I've run the Blood of Orlanth campaign, and had a really good time doing that. 2nd Age Glorantha has a very different "feel" to it, but it's still good. Only major flaw of the current adventures have been that the NPC bosses are statted up pretty weak, but that's easy to fix.

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

How magic-rich you play it is a campaign decision, not necessarily dependent on the rules. True, published adventures/etc did seem to give too many spells - for my taste, anyway (but it's easier to cross stuff out than add it in...).

That is what I consider to be one of MRQ'S pitfalls. How magic rich a campaign is has a lot to do with the setting. Glorantha is supposed to be magic rich, becuase it deal with epic, mythic story elements.

Whle I understand that a generic RPG system will probably be better off by letting GMs adjust to suit thier own campaigns and styles of play, the system should be modified to fit a particular setting and not, as in the case of MRQ the reverse.

MRQ should have had a different set of runes and associations for Glorantha than for the generic rules. But they tried to make the book generic and then (mis)used Glorantha stuff in the core book.

It all could have/can be fixed. I wonder if it is worth the effort. I don't see much in the MRQ game mechanics that are of any merit. I heard that some of the supplements are good in terms of setting and story content, but it would seem easier to adapt them to BRP or RQ than to fix MRQ.

I can understand why Monogoose would try it. They can sell another set/edition of books and fans will buy it even if the new system is worse than the current one. I saw that in some of the debates on the Mongoose board.

But why not just take the good stuff and adapt it to something like BRP?

[Atgxtg]

As maybe the only one who've been banned from the Mongoose forums thrice, my opinions on the Mongoose RuneQuest rules and the early Gloranthan stuff is pretty clear. It stank. It has however improved greatly since that. I've run the Blood of Orlanth campaign, and had a really good time doing that. 2nd Age Glorantha has a very different "feel" to it, but it's still good. Only major flaw of the current adventures have been that the NPC bosses are statted up pretty weak, but that's easy to fix.

SGL.

I would love to know just what got you banned too. When the firestorms started over there, Mongoose said that they wouldn't pull posts or shut down threads, then you posted something that got them to reverse their policy literally overnight.

Most the time, I didn't know what you did that got you bannned. Considering how vocal I was in expressing my displeasure with MRQ (I even got hate mail), I can't figure out just what you did that make you insecta non grata.

[sdavies2720]

...If this is the relationship between magic, runes and the deities, then rune/spirit magic is the real measure of one's degree of identification with the gods and spirits (affinity in HeroQuest). Where does Divine Magic (which is not tied to runes) fit in this kind of model?

I'm not running Glorantha, but a land inspired by White Bear & Red Moon, RQ, and therefore by reflection Glorantha.

I always thought that Apotheosis (attainment of godhood) required mastery, or ownership (I'm not near my reference materials to see if that is a real distinction) of one or more Runes.

So my take is: The Power eminates from the Runes. Gods & Goddesses control, transform, and direct that power for their own ends. Priests worship the Gods and Goddesses to partake in the power that they control. But, some people access the Rune power directly, and some people access the Rune power by using the power imbued in the land, special rocks, plants, etc.

Steve

[Trifletraxor]

I heard that some of the supplements are good in terms of setting and story content, but it would seem easier to adapt them to BRP or RQ than to fix MRQ.

I think this is currently correct. The rules are still broken, but the latest Glorantha supplements have been quite good. :cool:

I would love to know just what got you banned too. When the firestorms started over there, Mongoose said that they wouldn't pull posts or shut down threads, then you posted something that got them to reverse their policy literally overnight.

Must have been my clicking personality!

SGL.

[frogspawner]

I'm not running Glorantha, but a land inspired by White Bear & Red Moon, RQ, and therefore by reflection Glorantha.

Your Glorantha reflection sounds more recognizable as the Glorantha we knew of old than current products under that trademark.