How to fix Mongoose RuneQuest/Glorantha

[frogspawner]

OK, for the first time in ages, I've been back to the MRQ Forum, to mine it for useful stuff.

The major problem, as I see it, with Physical Runes was the "kill someone and take their stuff" effect it produced - Gloranthan-style ransoming was out the window, since you had to kill a Rune-integrated person to get their Rune, making it all too d&d-ish. The conclusion of a debate on Runes was this...

All good & positive ideas, recommended to anyone wanting physical Runes common in their Glorantha.

I think the "a Rune becomes part of the Integrator, and dies with them" approach solves this problem neatly (for scenarios that aren't written on a premise fundamentally contravening this principle).

[RosenMcStern]

But then you must have a way to physically create a Rune from scratch, or else the overall quantity of runecasters would decrease with time, as runes left over from Godtime are used up by casters.

[Thalaba]

But then you must have a way to physically create a Rune from scratch, or else the overall quantity of runecasters would decrease with time, as runes left over from Godtime are used up by casters.

Would that be so bad? If no one ever knows how much there was to begin with, how would you know you were running out? And wouldn't it serve to make runes more precious? There was an oil crisis in the 70's, and then there was lots, and then we were running out again, and then there was lots. There's a thought - Runes as the oil that greased the wheels of an ancient fantasy world. Sounds like fun to me!

Thalaba

[frogspawner]

But then you must have a way to physically create a Rune from scratch, or else the overall quantity of runecasters would decrease with time, as runes left over from Godtime are used up by casters.

Aha! But that's part of the beauty of it! This explains why physical runes are prevalent in 2nd Age Glorantha, but (virtually) unheard-of in the 3rd Age...

As time goes by, the only way to get/integrate/attune a Rune is by proxy - through initiation into Rune cults (to the gods of which we can assume the Rune-integrated souls would pass, after death).

There's a thought - Runes as the oil that greased the wheels of an ancient fantasy world. Sounds like fun to me!

Indeed. I'd take the view that physical Runes are the equivalent of RQ2 crystals - the crystallized blood of the gods. The parallel with oil (being organically-derived) gets even closer!

[deleriad]

Re runes: I believe there are supposed to be significantly more rune objects around than normal during the Second Age because of the God Learners. I believe they are spontaneously manifesting during the second age, possibly as if the hero plane were bleeding from grievous injuries.

My own take on it is that some of the rune objects are ancestral hand-me downs which the eldest son receives on the death of the father and so on. I suspect that many rune objects get lost.

Robin Laws makes the point that many rune objects are considered raid treasures in Orlanthi culture. If you steal it from an enemy then you have stolen some of that enemy's magic and it may sit around in a chest until such time as the enemy dies at which point it becomes unattuned again. I suspect that some rune objects physically embed themselves in a person when attuned while others don't.

I personally think of physical rune objects as rare treasures. That's why it makes sense to have relationships with runes which don't require an actual rune object - such as cultural affinities or spiritual integration through an initiation ceremony.

Also, by the book, you only get one chance to attune a rune object and it requires a skill that most people only have at base chance - Persistence. In narrative terms I envision the old thane dying and passing on his torque of leadership to his eldest son. The torque contains a motion rune but when the son tries to attune it he fails, leading to whispers from other clan members that maybe the son is not up to the job.

So physical rune objects can be an interesting element of Glorantha as long as they are not just kill the broo and take its runes examples. I disliked them when I first read MRQ - lets face it they are power-ups plain and simple - but they can actually be used in very flavourful ways. Loz's section on them in the GM handbook is well worth reading.

Finally I don't recall exactly but didn't Powered Crystals in RQ2 have to be attuned to a user and then couldn't be transferred short of death? (I may be wrong.)

[sdavies2720]

But then you must have a way to physically create a Rune from scratch, or else the overall quantity of runecasters would decrease with time, as runes left over from Godtime are used up by casters.

That would be a great basis for a land ala The Magic Goes Away by Larry Niven. The GM could quantify how much magic is left.

But if you don't want that feel, the runes could continue to manifest. As long as the Ur-Runes exist, they will continue to manifest materially on this plane. So there is an unending supply of the more prosaic physical runes.

OK, for the first time in ages, I've been back to the MRQ Forum, to mine it for useful stuff. [lots of useful stuff omitted]

I really like some of the concepts there. I love the idea of people's spirits retaining their Rune affinities after death, and therefore becoming powerful ancestor spirits.

Steve

[RosenMcStern]

Aha! But that's part of the beauty of it! This explains why physical runes are prevalent in 2nd Age Glorantha, but (virtually) unheard-of in the 3rd Age...

This was my idea on the subject, too, but it looks like the next iteration of HQ could introduce physical runes (or at least something similar) in the third age. This puts an end to the GAG concept of physical runes as a God Learner construct, which did not make so much sense, mythically speaking, to be honest. I have not got the details about this, as I did not attend conventions last year, but since Loz is involved in the rulemaking process along with less sensible individuals (you know who you are if you are reading this list, and luckily you are not) I hope they will not screw everything up.

I suggest we wait until we have more information about runes in HeroQuest before proposing other approaches to Rune Magic.

[frogspawner]

If you steal [a Rune-object] from an enemy then you have stolen some of that enemy's magic and it may sit around in a chest until such time as the enemy dies at which point it becomes unattuned again.

Sorry, but this is the same as the "kill them and take their stuff" scenario which should be avoided.

In narrative terms I envision the old thane dying and passing on his torque of leadership to his eldest son. The torque contains a motion rune but when the son tries to attune it he fails, leading to whispers from other clan members that maybe the son is not up to the job.

Fine narrative, but there's nothing to stop some brigand killing the old thane and taking the Rune - if it's an object - and then having just the same chance as the rightful heir to attune it. Doesn't seem right.

Now if, as I'd say, the Rune/crystal had been absorbed into the thane's own bloodstream, then maybe someone of his own bloodline might get a chance to inherit it, if voluntarily given...?

Finally I don't recall exactly but didn't Powered Crystals in RQ2 have to be attuned to a user and then couldn't be transferred short of death?

Nah, they could be un-attuned voluntarily (except cursed ones...). You could only have one, though, IIRC.

But if you don't want that feel, the runes could continue to manifest. As long as the Ur-Runes exist, they will continue to manifest materially on this plane. So there is an unending supply of the more prosaic physical runes.

Personally, I'd prefer only truly rare/exceptional circumstances to allow physical Runes to manifest.

This was my idea on the subject, too, but it looks like the next iteration of HQ could introduce physical runes (or at least something similar) in the third age.

Dreadful news. They seem intent on introducing differences for the sake of it (or, rather, for the sake of making a deliberate break from older material. To improve sales of their new products, a cynical person might think... )

I hope they will not screw everything up.

"A triumph of hope over experience" is the phrase, I'm afraid, Rosie.

I suggest we wait until we have more information about runes in HeroQuest before proposing other approaches to Rune Magic.

I suggest we do what we can to fix the mess Mongoose/GS have already made (and I think we're close, if not there already!) and worry about fixing whatever further Glorantha-breaking nonsense they come out with if/when it happens.

Edited March 17, 2009 by frogspawner

[deleriad]

Personally, I'd prefer only truly rare/exceptional circumstances to allow physical Runes to manifest.

I think the issue of whether or not there are physical manifestations of runes is a distraction when you're looking at fixing the rules for a game. If physical rune objects don't exist in your Glorantha then modify the rules to match accordingly. The default position in MRQ is that runes manifest physically, are attuned for a lifetime, can be re-attuned after death and that rune magic can't be cast without an integrated physical rune object. There is nothing broken about that characterisation. There is a breakage between that characterisation and rune magic for cults which makes the system internally inconsistent. My interest is in addressing that breakage is to allow for the possibility of runecasting without needing to integrate a physical rune object and allowing cults to be able to map different magics to the runes their God possesses based on their myths.

Issues like the prevalence of rune objects, what happens to a rune object when its host dies, whether there are non-standard forms of integration and so on are, in my opinion, fluff-led decisions which will vary by game world and player preference.

[Al.]

So attempting to forge an entirely false concensus.

2nd Age - lots of physical runes.

Owners/attuned die runes may either a) disappear back to the god plane or hang around to be stolen

3rd Age - very few physical runes. If you want access then you join the cult of a god attuned to them.

Maybe THAT's the real reason that the Gloranthan gods are so keen on keeping their worshippers souls after death. if you pledge yourself to a deity when you die they get to keep your runes. If you haven't then some other puny mortal gets to attune them and keep them where THEY SHOULD NOT BE

Al

[soltakss]

You should never derive setting-specific information from game mechanics.

RQM has runes and is set in the 2nd Age. RQ2/3 didn't have runes in the same way and is set in the 3rd Age. This doesn't mean that runes disappeared in the 2nd Age. In my opinion, anyway.

HeroQuest 2 is going to have runes and is set in 3rd Age. Does that mean that 3rd Age suddenly has runes again?

When HeroQuest came out, some of the rules mechanics were shoehorned into stories and myths and they just didn't work (for me, anyway).

Game mechanics should be used to interpret the setting-specific qualities, not vice versa.

[deleriad]

You should never derive setting-specific information from game mechanics.

This is undoubtedly true though retconning (which is essentially what's at stake) is a major fan pastime.

HQ2.0 may or may not surface one day and, afterwards, the Gloranthan magic book may arrive and the authors may or may not specify whether in HQ2.0 physical rune objects exist in Glorantha.

I personally quite like the idea of a boom in physical rune objects in the Second Age due to God Learner activities and I like some of the storytelling you can do around this. It would almost certainly be a retcon. That said quite a lot of Glorantha was made up on the spur of the moment to suit the needs of a particular game so there is a noble tradition of it.

However, this thread is in danger of spinning off into Gloranthan esoterica.

[Al.]

You should never derive setting-specific information from game mechanics.

One should never use the word 'you' when one means 'one'

One should never make absolute pronouncements on make-believe worlds in the arena of disagreement and ill-defined concepts that is an internet discussion forum

That being said.........

Yes absolutely the rules should be servant of the setting (story/hobby/having a good time) not vice versa and a good enough point to warrant repettition :thumb:

The problem (if problem it be) is that the game explanation for runes in MRQ is very different from that in RQI-III. And there has been a change of setting (or time period at least) so peeps do ponder the significance of this.

I am not for one moment that my explanation/suggestion is the paragon of elegant simplicty which makes all clear. But it interests me. And (sad to say) I use these boards more as a method of thinking aloud and seeing what views others have rather than as medium for me to make great and helpful suggestions to help others.

Al

All of the above IMMO

[frogspawner]

The default position in MRQ is that runes manifest physically, are attuned for a lifetime, can be re-attuned after death and that rune magic can't be cast without an integrated physical rune object. There is nothing broken about that characterisation.

No. The point in bold breaks Glorantha by turning it into just another D&D-style "kill things and their stuff" setting (or can do, if Runes are anything other than extremely rare).

There is a breakage between that characterisation and rune magic for cults which makes the system internally inconsistent. My interest is in addressing that breakage is to allow for the possibility of runecasting without needing to integrate a physical rune object and allowing cults to be able to map different magics to the runes their God possesses based on their myths.

Yes. Rules supporting that are necessary to allow GMs to play their Glorantha without Runes being common, if they wish.

[frogspawner]

2nd Age - lots of physical runes.

Owners/attuned die runes may either a) disappear back to the god plane or hang around to be stolen

3rd Age - very few physical runes. If you want access then you join the cult of a god attuned to them.

Maybe THAT's the real reason that the Gloranthan gods are so keen on keeping their worshippers souls after death. if you pledge yourself to a deity when you die they get to keep your runes. If you haven't then some other puny mortal gets to attune them and keep them where THEY SHOULD NOT BE

Yes, that fixes the physical Runes problem nicely...

...so long as ( is reserved for extra-special occasions!

[deleriad]

No. The point in bold breaks Glorantha by turning it into just another D&D-style "kill things and their stuff" setting (or can do, if Runes are anything other than extremely rare).

I do realise that you believe physical runes that can be integrated by someone after the previous host has died ARE AN ABOMINATION AND HAVE NO PLACE IN GLORANTHA AND ANY POSSIBILITY OF THEM BREAKS GLORANTHA AND RUINS IT AND STEALS MY PET TEDDY BEAR (sob, I loved that teddy bear).

I think you'll find that players who like to kill things and steal their stuff will do so regardless.

If in your Glorantha physical runes are extremely rare or maybe don't even exist, then allow the casting of rune magic without the need for a physically integrated rune. Or ignore MRQ and play with RQ3 or BRP with RQ3 options. If you wish for runes to exist but dissipate after the host dies then that's your Glorantha. I suggest however that if you wish to debate the nature of runes in Glorantha and whether physical rune objects exist or not that a Glorantha list would be better.

[Atgxtg]

You should never derive setting-specific information from game mechanics.

I disagree. I thing the game mechanics should reflect the setting, so extrapolating one from the other should work. If it doesn't work, then there is probably a problem with the game system representing the setting. The problem here is that while RQ/BRP is a good system, it wasn't a good fit for Glorantha.

RQM has runes and is set in the 2nd Age. RQ2/3 didn't have runes in the same way and is set in the 3rd Age. This doesn't mean that runes disappeared in the 2nd Age. In my opinion, anyway.

RQ2/3 did have runes. It's just that runes were incorporated into the Cult and Rune Magic system. Frankly, I think physical runes should be in the setting, but I don't think the MRQ method is right for Glorantha.

HeroQuest 2 is going to have runes and is set in 3rd Age. Does that mean that 3rd Age suddenly has runes again?

Depends on how they use the,m. What I7d like to see is the runic sysmbols being used, rather than physical "left overs". For instance, making the runic symbols focuses for spells. What I could see for the "bones/blood of the gods" idea would be something like a maxtrix and/or POW storing device.

For example, anyone could learn Bladesharp who knew the right rune(s), but a Bladesharp rune drawn in Humakt's blood might be usable by anyone, or maybe double the level of the spell. Rune Lords and Priests might even be able to get a few drops of blood from their deity, too. In other words kind of like relics.

Now since this is HQ that we are talking about, rather than RQ, I'm not quiote sure just how they plan to implement runes.

[frogspawner]

I do realise that you believe physical runes that can be integrated by someone after the previous host has died ARE AN ABOMINATION AND HAVE NO PLACE IN GLORANTHA AND ANY POSSIBILITY OF THEM BREAKS GLORANTHA AND RUINS IT AND STEALS MY PET TEDDY BEAR (sob, I loved that teddy bear).

Really? Then I'm afraid you realize wrong. My previous postings have said how the new idea of physical runes could have a place in Glorantha - if done properly.

I think you'll find that players who like to kill things and steal their stuff will do so regardless.

Rules shouldn't force such behaviour though. MRQ does.

[frogspawner]

Depends on how they use the,m. What I7d like to see is the runic sysmbols being used, rather than physical "left overs". For instance, making the runic symbols focuses for spells. What I could see for the "bones/blood of the gods" idea would be something like a maxtrix and/or POW storing device.

Sounds like a good implementation. Probably too compatible with pre-existing versions for them to use in HQ2, though...

Or ignore MRQ and play with RQ3 or BRP with RQ3 options.

To play Glorantha, I'd use BRP with my usual simple options (and a few house rules). Ignoring MRQ of course.

For those among us who might want to use Mongoose Glorantha material, what else (aside from Runes!) is there in MRQ stuff that needs conversion for use with BRP?

[deleriad]

For those among us who might want to use Mongoose Glorantha material, what else (aside from Runes!) is there in MRQ stuff that needs conversion for use with BRP?

Depends what you're wanting to achieve. If you're wanting to use Dedicated POW rather than sacrifice POW then clearly you'll need to adapt that. The Grimoires and orders from Cults II for sorcery might be useful though that's not open content. Similarly shamanism - though you have to unpick the editing disasters. Other material for the second age would be Draconic Mysticism and God Learner sorcery from Magic of Glorantha. The stuff on HeroQuesting can probably just as easily be adopted from HeroQuest. The Dragonewt and Aldryami source books have a lot of useful material in them.

99% of the stuff can be just copied and pasted. There's the odd spell that needs refining to work without hit locations and/or to take account of General Hit Points but that's about it. Any spells that can be resisted with resilience or persistence become POW vs POW instead.

[frogspawner]

Depends what you're wanting to achieve.

Basically, rules to convert MRQ-statted characters so they can be used in BRP campaigns. That shouldn't be hard, should it?

If Resilience/Persistence can just be crossed out (and POWvPOW used instead), then that's a great start!

[deleriad]

Basically, rules to convert MRQ-statted characters so they can be used in BRP campaigns. That shouldn't be hard, should it?

If Resilience/Persistence can just be crossed out (and POWvPOW used instead), then that's a great start!

That is a different thread. I think I've seem some chatter elsewhere. It can easily be done by eye with the following caveat:

MRQ weapon and armour values are closer to RQ2 than BRP. That said, if a character has a Bastard Sword then they have a Bastard Sword so use BRP stats.

MRQ uses hit locations but not general Hit Points. Therefore you will have to calculate your own. That said MRQ uses pretty standard BRP stat skills so you can simply use your favourite option. If you are using hit locations then MRQ does not use RQ3/BRP hit location calculations and you probably need to use the BRP ones to be fair to PCs. MRQ hit locations have 1 hit point per every 5 points (or portion) of CON+SIZ with an adjustment for location (+1 abdomen, +2 chest etc).

Average human (CON 10 SIZ 13) in BRP is

Legs: 4, Abdo 4, Chest 5, Arms 3, Head 4 if I remember correctly.

In MRQ same person is:

Legs: 5, Abdo 6, Chest 7, Arms 4, Head 5.

i.e. an MRQ character usually has 1-2 HP per location more than a BRP average.

[Darran]

I do not know the proposed rule mechanics for runes in the new HeroQuest system as I missed all conventions last year, but seeing HeroQuest and RuneQuest converge more would not displease me.

News on HeroQuest's new Rune Magic from Continuum 2008 can be heard in this podcast here:

Continuum 2008 Rune Magic Seminar

or here:

Continuum 2008 Rune Magic Seminar - MP3

[deleriad]

News on HeroQuest's new Rune Magic from Continuum 2008 can be heard in this podcast here:

Continuum 2008 Rune Magic Seminar

or here:

Continuum 2008 Rune Magic Seminar - MP3

They are very enlightening and I have based my ideas on how Gloranthan runes might work in RQ (and, by association, BRP) on them. The concept of people being born with runic relations based on their culture, family, social & religious history makes a lot of sense to me. As does rune matching when joining theistic cults.

If I were re-writing MRQ I would make the runic powers table a little more free-form. E.g. if someone has an air rune then at affinity level they can make minor manifestations (making a candle gutter), at integration they can do more and with mastery even more. Then again I would probably also get all sort of nerdy and match runes with skills so your rune casting skill can augment a matching skill and draw up associations with metals, colours, weapons and behavioural traits.

[Merak Gren]

I'm not running Glorantha, but a land inspired by White Bear & Red Moon, RQ, and therefore by reflection Glorantha.

I always thought that Apotheosis (attainment of godhood) required mastery, or ownership (I'm not near my reference materials to see if that is a real distinction) of one or more Runes.

So my take is: The Power eminates from the Runes. Gods & Goddesses control, transform, and direct that power for their own ends. Priests worship the Gods and Goddesses to partake in the power that they control. But, some people access the Rune power directly, and some people access the Rune power by using the power imbued in the land, special rocks, plants, etc.

Steve

I like this idea. I did a lot of soul searching about the physical Runes. I have reconciled it thus.

Physical Runes exist, but they are big. Geograhic in fact. These are places of power and shrines and temples have sprung up on them. So in order to attune a Rune, you need to go on pilgrimage and do 'tasks' 'stations' heroquests? Not sure yet. My Glorantha will vary.

Anyway, you'll need to quest for these runes and will be guarded by temples etc. Once you are dead, its gone.

Was also thinking of giving the runes a % rating too. That way, you gain mastery at 100%.