Invisible God thoughts

[EricW]

Never been a proper write up of Invisible Eurmel!

[Akhôrahil]

5 minutes ago, EricW said:

Never been a proper write up of Invisible Eurmel!

I hope to see the Fronelan "Eurmal Friend of Man" some time.

[Sir_Godspeed]

45 minutes ago, metcalph said:

As Rokari woman are their own caste, they are not bound by caste restrictions that affect their men.  In practice, most obey the restrictions of their own men.  I know Greg was amenable to female warrior rokari (I have no idea whether it exists now) but I think most would go the way of adopt men's habits to get ahead.

Rokari have the Menena caste?

[metcalph]

29 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Rokari have the Menena caste?

Checking the guide, I see the opposite is true.  I do think there is scope for them to take up the duties of their father's caste even if they are not normally expected to do so.

[Joerg]

15 hours ago, Jeff said:

4. What is the ideal form of human society? Malkionism encourages people to look at abstract ideals as the perfect form of something (and that sorcery is the technique of bringing the material world in compliance with that perfect form). But what is the ideal form of human society? Logically human society is divided into castes or classes, but how are those chosen and comprised? 

What is the purpose of human society according to the various groups derived from Malkion's teachings? As we are talking about the descendants of the Kingdom of Logic, there must be one. And if humans are devolved from the primal runes, there must have been a purpose in this process of multiplication, or the Creator wouldn't have undergone the Fourth Action. This is dissimilar from the creation of the Clay Mostali who were required as replacement for attrition of True Mostali, there was no such attrition preceding the Fourth Action. The only attrition Zzabur describes among his fellow Erasanchula is their error of demanding/accepting worship, but for them to do so, there is a logical requirement of there to be potential worshipers - i.e. the Fourth Action.

So rather than having Multiplication as an explanation of the world that is, what would be the purpose of the One Mind behind initiating Multiplication? It is Multiplication that creates society - many people doing more or less the same tasks in their contribution to the whole.

Does society have a purpose on its own, or is it a vessel for the purpose of the individuals making up this society?

 

So what is the logic behind the division in castes? There are two arguments that I can perceive may sound logical.

The specialisation one is that by doing one task really well an individual's contribution to the whole can be much greater than that of jacks of all trades. But then the Danmalastan story with the six tribes already leads this ad absurdum with the six primary tasks for each tribe, and then the tribes having the four castes.

One is about separation of powers. He whose responsibility is fighting, magic or making (including food) should not make decisions for all the others or all the others would be subject to that narrow perspective. Rinse and repeat for the other three caste duties, and then start worrying about what to do if the personal pronoun happens to be She.

Castes are about Being, not about Knowing. As a measure of ancestry, they make partial sense as the descendants may draw on their ancestor's knowledge and powers through rites, but none of that was even on the horizon when Malkion assigned his three sons from Phlia the tilnta with the tasks of ruling, magic, and fighting, and the son from Kala with making. Presumably all in his stead.

But then there is no way that all people who have a caste are direct descendants from Malkion. While being unaging would keep each of the original sons of Malkion fertile for Ages, we have contradicting information about his first generation offspring in Hrestol's Saga - Talar had twin sons, Froalar and Hoalar, who would be his heirs, with Froalar voluntarily leaving his father's city to avoid even the temptation to have a succession crisis and civil war. No idea whether the version in Hrestol's Saga which has Talar and Hoalar perish in the same Vadeli attack (sounds like the Double Belligerent Assault to me) still is in the history of Brithos. If so, the succession would have been a problem of redundance, as the original leader still was around and didn't need replacement.

Alexandre Dumas' "Man with the Iron Mask" is probably the best known literary variant on this succession problem. Romulus and Remus don't quite count as their conflict occurs in the founding of The City, and they don't inherit anything.

The original Malkioni society was pretty male. Other than Menena (daughter of Malkion and Phlia, according to Hrestol's Saga) we know one other daughter, Eule (same parentage), sister-wife to Talar.

 

The ideal society appears to be The City. Up to a certain size, the city can hold all primary producers (farmers, fishers, herders, hunters) and sustain itself, but I don't get the vibe that The City was in any way participating in primary production, and instead was the home to the artisans of the Worker caste.

 

One (perhaps intrinsic) problem with Malkioni society is that it was created for a race of (procreating) immortals. (That the immortality was fragile is something that came up only with the Fifth Action.)

Malkionism is based on the teachings of Malkion the Prophet, the Founder, at the start of the Fourth Action. It does take the Fifth Action into account, but the society created by the Founder and Prophet was to regulate the business of the Fourth Action. Did the Prophet design that logical society already with an (unsabotaged) Fifth Action in his plans?

When Hrestol received his revelation of Joy and for the Men of All (overcoming the strict caste laws of the original, immortal Malkioni) Death (and Malkioni old age) had been in the world for generations. In case of Hrestol, two generations - Hrestol probably experienced almost the entire Gray Age, which (according to Dara Happan and Heortling reckoning was well over a century - YS places the end of the Kazkurtum at 110,665 YS, 335 years before the Dawn). Despite that, he and his sister Fenela emerged as young people at the Dawn, and his father Froalar (son of Talar) was at best middle-aged in appearance.

According to one source that I recently chanced upon, Hrestol may have had two (possibly elder) full brothers who died of the same disease that his mother Xemela ended with her sacrificial death.) It isn't quite clear how quickly the other Dawn witnesses aged with the advent of Time, as we only get the death dates for the Serpent Kings (who rather retire as soon as they can to join the divine existence of their mother/grandmother/great grandmother Seshna, and their male ancestors). Faralz and Yadmov are of Hrestol's age group and appear to remain active throughout the first 70 years of history or so. Hrestol, Faralz and Ylream had Brithini wives (the daughters of Duke Antalos of Horalwal, roughly third degree cousins of Hrestol, with only Ylream's wife born at or after the Dawn).

 

Looking at the situation at the Dawn, I think that Hrestol regarded the civilisation of his homeland (Frowal, really) as he left it behind as a fairly well-managed state of human affairs, with the Pendali threat finally countered and his demigod half-brother left as successor to Froalar who had joined Seshna as sacred (serpent) king. The situation he found in his first seat of exile, Brithos, was sort-of tolerable until the Talar of Brithos desired the land and hand of his middle sister-in-law, but then Hrestol had managed to land a fairly cushy position as one of the twelve "enfeoffed" talars of Brithos through his marriage to the daughter of the Duke of Horalwal. The ensuing civil war caused by Faralz's "heroic" assassination of said Talar of Brithos at the last opportunity before the core wedding ceremony showed the flaws in the Brithini ways in a very ugly way. Hrestol's Saga unfortunately breaks off in the middle of how Hrestol and Faralz escape the island with their wives, and the paragraph in Middle Sea Empire p.33 only tells us matter-of-factly that Hrestol went on to become the Vadeli judge (another talar position, apparently) which his son of his Brithini marriage and his grandson (Aignor the Trader, father of the fourth Serpent King with Seshna) succeeded to.

Finally, in Akem Hrestol sets out to organize a Malkioni society that comes close to his revelations and meditations. But he still departs from this, enters contemplation again, and encounters a Brithini patrol which captured him and led him to Sog City where he was martyred for his sacrilegious changes to the Malkioni ways of old.

As a resume of his life, Hrestol adapted to various forms of Malkionism, left his imprint, and moved on when he found these lacking. When he was martyred, he was still searching for the perfect society, which means neither of those he left behind conformed with the perfect society of his revelation.

All of these societies claimed for themselves to follow the true way of Malkion, and subsequent movements in Malkionism all built on Hrestol's influence, even the Brithini reforms shortly after the Dawn (mainly Zzabur's retirement from politics).

 

 

[Gallowglass]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

All of these societies claimed for themselves to follow the true way of Malkion, and subsequent movements in Malkionism all built on Hrestol's influence, even the Brithini reforms shortly after the Dawn (mainly Zzabur's retirement from politics).

 

Something I am still confused by is when the idea of "Solace" and the "Invisible God" became a thing, and how that fits in with the major traditions in the Third Age. In Revealed Mythologies, which I realize is not totally canon, Solace is described as an "Ice Age" development. I thought that all the Malkioni during this period were actually Brithini, who don't even recognize or worship the Invisible God. So at some point in this mythic period, a few people on Brithos got it into their heads that there was a transcendent being, probably embodied by Malkion in his various forms, and that there was a way they could join with it after death. Is this why some Brithini left the island to found colonies in Genertela?

Where did this idea come from? It seems to be something Malkion himself may have taught during the Fifth Action. Quote from Revealed Mythologies, p. 12, "The Sacrifice of Malkion brings contact with Solace for the mortals who have been suffering. This is the start of the return to Godhead of the Malkioni." What's weird about this to me is that all of Malkion's followers were seemingly killed (except the Brithini/Enrolvalini), and New Malkonwal destroyed. How did these teachings about Solace survive, and spread among the Brithini later on? 

Then there's the Invisible God as a concept. I am totally tripped up at this point on the difference between Malkion, the Invisible God, Makan, Irensaval, and others. The term "Invisible God" seems to have been introduced with the God Learners and their Abiding Book. What is actually revealed in the Abiding Book that differs from earlier Hrestol or Brithini traditions? Did it just have lots of cool new spells in it!? And how does the Invisible God relate to the greater mythological narrative? Does it represent Malkion in a specific Action? Revealed Mythologies conveniently links many of these concepts with each Action. Solace=Kiona, Second Action. Joy=Ferbrith, First Action. Not sure what the Invisible God is in connection with this larger system. 

Sorry I'm asking a lot of barely coherent questions, I'm probably reading too much into the Revealed Mythologies stuff. 

[metcalph]

Solace as originally conceived in the Storm Age appears to have meant something like Personal Immortality.  Later Malkion said he was wrong and exiled for insanity as a result.  Not all of Malkion's followers were killed, they survived in Fronela, Seshnela, Slontos and God Forgot.

The Invisible God was a philosophical concept taught by Malkion.  Deities such as Irensavel and Makan are redefinition of the original concept as the result of new discoveries and philosophical realizations.  They are equivalent to the Prime Mover, the Good, Pneuma, the Nous.

Hrestol made a big deal about understanding the Invisible God through Henosis.  Despite earlier writings, his teachings were never very influential except in Fronela were they seized control of the government.

The Abiding Book was the Jrusteli equivalent of the Manhatten Project.  Confused by various different traditions, the God Learners manipulated the Cosmos into providing the Truth which totally kicked ass.  That following this truth then led to universal ruin is a major problem for latter Malkioni.

I've largely given up on making sense about Ferbrith etc as Greg was at the time quickly jotting down ideas sending them out for comment, making further notes based on the comments while not making any corrections to the original comments.As matters stand, it's an opaque list of names that doesn't  tell us anything.  I'm not sure whether the concept of Malkion the Sacrifice is still valid.

In looking at Malkioni history, I generally avoid the idea of heroes providing the ideal society/redefining castes etc for other Malkioni to follow.  They had better things to do with their time.  They had big ideas which they put into action before passing on.  The rules of society are largely unchanged and validated by the hero having participated  in it.

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, Gallowglass said:

Then there's the Invisible God as a concept. I am totally tripped up at this point on the difference between Malkion, the Invisible God, Makan, Irensaval, and others. The term "Invisible God" seems to have been introduced with the God Learners and their Abiding Book. What is actually revealed in the Abiding Book that differs from earlier Hrestol or Brithini traditions? Did it just have lots of cool new spells in it!? And how does the Invisible God relate to the greater mythological narrative? Does it represent Malkion in a specific Action? Revealed Mythologies conveniently links many of these concepts with each Action. Solace=Kiona, Second Action. Joy=Ferbrith, First Action. Not sure what the Invisible God is in connection with this larger system.

The Invisible God is the Prime Mover (Glorantha Sourcebook 67) and even the Brithini of Arolanit acknowledge it as the creator of the universe (Guide to Glorantha 408.)

Just what this means depends on the particular version of Malkionism that is being followed, for example:

• In Loskalm, Irensaval is the name of the Invisible God (or a title meaning Hidden Mover), who existed before creation, before the corrupt laws of the demiurge Makan (who is identified with Malkion.) The goal of their philosophy is to achieve oneness with the Invisible God, and escape the demiurge's illusions.
• In Carmania, the Invisible God was recognised as Idovanus. Here he's a god of light and goodness, who opposes the evil Ganestarius, and leads the ancient High Gods of Pelanda.
• In Otkorion in Ralios, Surantyr the Non-Heretic revealed that Orlanth was the Invisible God made Visible. All other Orlanthi gods are mere parts of Orlanth himself.
• The Birthini acknowledge the Invisible God is the Prime Mover. However, they see no reason why the Prime Mover should be worshipped.

Similarly Malkion has been seen in various ways: A teacher, the demiurge (both evil and good), the Evil Emperor of Orlanthi myth, their ancestor, a seer (also known as Kiona (GtG 680)), their founder, a prophet.

The Malkion described in Revealed Mythologies seems to encompass both the Invisible God (the one mind and Ferbrith) and his emanation/prophet Malkion (Kiona, Ordelvis, Elmalkion, and Malkionaru) but I don't know of any Malkioni sects which would treat Malkion and the Invisible God as the same entity.

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Gallowglass said:

Then there's the Invisible God as a concept. I am totally tripped up at this point on the difference between Malkion, the Invisible God, Makan, Irensaval, and others. The term "Invisible God" seems to have been introduced with the God Learners and their Abiding Book. What is actually revealed in the Abiding Book that differs from earlier Hrestol or Brithini traditions? Did it just have lots of cool new spells in it!? And how does the Invisible God relate to the greater mythological narrative? Does it represent Malkion in a specific Action? Revealed Mythologies conveniently links many of these concepts with each Action. Solace=Kiona, Second Action. Joy=Ferbrith, First Action. Not sure what the Invisible God is in connection with this larger system. 

Sorry I'm asking a lot of barely coherent questions, I'm probably reading too much into the Revealed Mythologies stuff. 

Malkionism as presented in the literary sources of Glorantha seems based on RW emanationism, a concept used in some branches of Greek philosophy and Gnostic Christianity. Basically, it's based on an initial point in the Godhead/All/One/Mind, etc. (and its Greek-language equivalent, Monad/Nous, etc.).

The basic premise is that this entity essentially encompasses everything. And by everything they mean more than the physical universe, the physical universe often being implied or explicitly said to be just a tiny part of something much greater. 

Somewhere along the line, there is either a necessity or a fault that causes the Godhead/One to "emanate" lesser, usually more specialized entities. These may or may not be anthropomorphized, who become actors within the created universe, or they act as its creators/upholder (or in some cases its impersonal natural laws). Sometimes these are helpful and act as the proper ways to come into contact with the higher powers, and other times they are trying to hide the truth from mortals.

In the case of Malkionism, "theistic" Malkioni seem to treat the Invisible God as equivalent to the RW One/Godhead, a kind of "Over-god", somewhat similar to Glorantha/Arachne Solara in that they aren't just "mere" gods, they seem to stand above that, even. The Godhead is then believed to have emanated part of itself into the form of Malkion of some iteration, who then, according to need or opportunity, emanated in turn to - arguably - more and more concrete and anthropomorphized forms/functions as the God Time progresses, almost like some kind of matryoshka doll, or perhaps better yet, a ray of light passing through multiple panes of glass.

That's my take on it at least. How or when specifically this belief came into being, and why the Brithini reject it is a mystery for me too, and for all I know Greg might never have quite figured it out - if indeed there is one objective series of events that caused this, and not some Gloranthan equivalent of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle where you can never quite pinpoint sequentiality in the God Time acros multiple myths, because it's a state of being where multiple, mutually exclusive things can indeed occur.

There is one thing though, that I feel like pointing out: the Sourcebook and Guide go out of their way to talk about how the Mostali don't actually believe in the World Machine and/or Mostal as a literal being, but rather use it as an anthropomorphization for the sake of convenience, when in reality they almost more like "non-theistic" pantheists ("system-ists", Gestalt-believers - take your pick). Considering all the other connections with the Mostali the ancient Malkioni have, I find it interesting that both the Malkioni and Mostali have seemingly undergone a development from purely abstraction (Brithini Laws, the World Machine as interacting systems) to more anthropomorphization (Malkion in his various incarnations as an expression of a higher power called the Invisible God, the World Machine as a personal being called Mostal). What's the connection here, and when/how did it occur? Is it purely coincidence? More a case of shared philosophical outlooks creating similar trajectories, or ongoing contact? Some deeper connection even? (I know the suggestion that the Real People and Mostali may have started off as something similar to each other has been suggested before.)

[Sir_Godspeed]

It's weird how we get sources that both say that the Brithini acknowledge the Invisible God, and apparently sources that say that the Brithini reject all "theism" whatsoever (or at least Zzabur seems to do so) and simply acknowledges the Laws.

[davecake]

On 8/15/2019 at 12:03 AM, Jeff said:

As most of you all know, the Invisible God will not be making an appearance in the Cults of Glorantha - as sorcery really needs a full treatment, and the so will be getting its own book. 

I got my copy of the Cults of Glorantha preview in the mail yesterday. Jeff helpfully personally certified with a sharpie that it contained no Invisible God.

He is wrong, of course. The Invisible God is in everything. Though also beyond everything. 

[davecake]

My long held theory on the Menena caste is that it is not simply about gender, it is about being able to create and raise children - ie it is properly considered a caste that corresponds to a job.

To the traditionalist Rokari that means if you are born into the caste, you can never change, that is your role for life (if you wish to follow correct theology). To the New Hrestoli of Loskalm, that means you are Menena as long as you do the job - become pregnant, you are part of the Menena caste, but otherwise, women have caste mobility just as men do. Quite possibly men who choose full time child care are Menena caste as well. 

[davecake]

On 8/15/2019 at 5:11 AM, Gallowglass said:

I can definitely understand this take. I'm curious which Malkioni sect or culture you think is the most "playable." I've put a lot of thought into how I would potentially build a campaign in each region featuring the Western culture, namely Seshnela, Loskalm, and Safelster.

I find the Loskalmi tricky, in that from a philosophical point of view I find them the most playable, with few beliefs that are offensive to modern players, lots of potential for individual PCs to make their own moral choices, etc. But from a rules point of view, as written now their sorcerers only beginning to learn sorcery in mid-to late adulthood, usually in play, means that with the current sorcery rules their magic is going to suck, which makes them less fun to play. I hope we can find a rules hack to fix that somewhat - maybe something to do with obsessive following of the Ascended Masters (though in general I think the Ascended Masters are not worshipped, but provide advanced magical practices to follow for obtaining knowledge through experience rather than book study - eg heroquest practices, monastic disciplines). I think we are a long way off getting them right rules wise and the time probably isn't right to even try, let's get both the Rokari and a bit more on mysticism first. 

I have found a super useful resource for getting into the Loskalm mindset is the Just City books by Jo Walton, which are set in a version of Plato's Republic (as a divine experiment). Lets you get a feel for life in the city without having to rely only on extrapolating from Plato's Republic directly. 

In the mean time, I'm strongly tempted towards Safelster 'occult knife fights' with lots of weird sects mixing all sorts of different magic in odd combinations being the easiest option for now. You don't need individual sects to be functional as large social institutions, just go wild. 

On 8/15/2019 at 5:11 AM, Gallowglass said:

Loskalm on the other hand has rejected caste restrictions, and apparently grants women the same status as men. Their religion is a bit grim, yet they still celebrate the human body through art, athletics, etc. I'm not totally clear on their attitudes to sex. Probably somewhere between, "All flesh is evil" and "the body is a reflection of the unknowable divine."

I think they are quite body positive and open about sex, but disdain the open sensuality of the Rokari. They are more high minded (the body is a perfect thing that should be celebrated). I don't think most of them reject the body, rather it should be mastered so it does not interfere with mental discipline. For average folk that means regular exercise (definitely in Plato, even for philosophers) and good hygiene (the Furlandan school of sorcery is one of their favoured practices, and their key book is half hygiene manual that turns into demon banishing), for sorcerers that becomes yoga and meditation, and eventually magical enhancement to the point of self-enchantment and immortality magic. 

And because of that slight obsession with hygiene, they bathe a lot - so (probably mixed nude) saunas and gymnasiums are more their style. 

(and as a side note - the Men of All are generally fighting men first, so a lot of their war magic is enhancing their own ability to fight, accomplished Men-of-all are often sorcerously enhanced supermen, they should be fun to play). 

[Gallowglass]

9 hours ago, davecake said:

I have found a super useful resource for getting into the Loskalm mindset is the Just City books by Jo Walton, which are set in a version of Plato's Republic (as a divine experiment). Lets you get a feel for life in the city without having to rely only on extrapolating from Plato's Republic directly. 

 

I'd love to see someone put together a "Malkioni inspirational reading list." Occasionally I try to find an accessible book on Gnosticism, Manichaeism, or Neoplatonism, but so much of it is new-agey weirdness, or written for Christian audiences. At some point I guess I should try to read Plato if I'm ever going to run a Loskalm campaign. 

9 hours ago, davecake said:

I find the Loskalmi tricky, in that from a philosophical point of view I find them the most playable, with few beliefs that are offensive to modern players, lots of potential for individual PCs to make their own moral choices, etc. But from a rules point of view, as written now their sorcerers only beginning to learn sorcery in mid-to late adulthood, usually in play, means that with the current sorcery rules their magic is going to suck, which makes them less fun to play. I hope we can find a rules hack to fix that somewhat - maybe something to do with obsessive following of the Ascended Masters (though in general I think the Ascended Masters are not worshipped, but provide advanced magical practices to follow for obtaining knowledge through experience rather than book study - eg heroquest practices, monastic disciplines). I think we are a long way off getting them right rules wise and the time probably isn't right to even try, let's get both the Rokari and a bit more on mysticism first. 

 

The Guide says that every Loskalmi starts working in the fields, then those that show "spiritual virtue and ability" are chosen to be trained as Guardians. It doesn't specify when this training begins, but I would guess around 12-14 years of age. Then promising Guardians are inducted into the Men-of-All, and from there it's wizards or First Brothers, then potentially nobles. A big part of learning sorcery involves becoming literate, which could happen during childhood. And even though Guardians don't use sorcery in combat, it doesn't explicitly say that they can't begin learning it during their training. If you become a Man-of-All by 18, which is not unreasonable, at 21 you could have mastered at least one Rune and one Technique, and learned something like 1-3 spells. I'm thinking that the basic sorcerous course of study is from the canon texts from p. 203 of the Guide, by Tomaris, Snodal, Siglat, and Talor. After that, a Man-of-All or wizard could specialize in whatever Ascended Master they please. 

[metcalph]

Given the old division between wizards and knights in the early Malkioni material (ie Cults of Teror early), I don't think the Loskalmi trust their people to know sorcery until they have attained henosis (ie INT+POW+ ritual bonus on d100 as per RQ:G p384).  The technique they probably learn is dispel (ie remove worldly distractions) although it could be truth.

They wouldn't cast sorcery in combat (most sorcery spells have to be big to be effective and there's no way a starting guardian is capable of that) preferring spirit magic and possibly their own rune affinities.  The sorcery spells they have would be rituals like medispection (examining your own conduct for error).  Once they have proven themselves to be worthy then they are permitted to learn other types of sorcery.

There's a tension in the Loskalmi description between the neo-spartan ideal and the otherwise normal country.  I think the guardians are meant to be professional troops which argues against the Loskalmi boy-scouts approach.  The literacy requirement for sorcery doesn't fit either approach and so I suspect the Loskalmi have an alternate means of instruction that helps to control access to sorcery.

[Sir_Godspeed]

49 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There's a tension in the Loskalmi description between the neo-spartan ideal and the otherwise normal country.  I think the guardians are meant to be professional troops which argues against the Loskalmi boy-scouts approach.  The literacy requirement for sorcery doesn't fit either approach and so I suspect the Loskalmi have an alternate means of instruction that helps to control access to sorcery.

The guardians struck me as citizen-soldiers. They might very well keep farming and/or crafting or whatever while being trained and even between exercises, deployment and wars or whatever.

We don't really hear about that because as guardians, possibly because their other livelihood goes from being their main activity to be, at least conceptually, incidental.

Just speculating. This all does come down to just how many guardians are. A pre-industrial civilization can't sustain a huge amount of non-productive individuals, so anything above 1-3 percent full-time soldiers seems very, very iffy. If it's a seasonal thing, however, there might be many, many more.

[metcalph]

Citizen-soldiers just strikes me as a tad implausible in a Bronze Age society.  In the platonic original, the Guardians were full-time (and in the probable Spartan origin, they could afford to be full-time because the helots were providing for them).  Hence 2% guardians and a similar number on reserve sounds right to me.

[Joerg]

10 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Given the old division between wizards and knights in the early Malkioni material (ie Cults of Teror early), I don't think the Loskalmi trust their people to know sorcery until they have attained henosis (ie INT+POW+ ritual bonus on d100 as per RQ:G p384).  The technique they probably learn is dispel (ie remove worldly distractions) although it could be truth.

 

A character knowing sorcery can be assumed to have undergone this kind of henosis at least once, possibly twice, upon learning his first technique and his first rune. Basically, this says in order to know sorcery (as more than an abstract concept you can read about in preparation) you have to have undergone this henosis.

This is remarkably similar to the Founder Plane of HeroQuest 1 rules p.176.

Zzaburist sorcerers equate this experience with Solace, and Rokari-schooled sorcerers probably do so, too.

 

 

Anyway, I don't see why the Irensavalists would deviate that much from the Dawn Age True Hrestoli Way:

Quote

When one achieves self-mastery though mastery of the Four Tools and quiets the clamor of the lower world, the essential soul can contemplate the purity in itself and ascend purified. The essential soul possessing true morality and all the purity of the virtues contemplates its greatness, its righteous life, pure morality, courage with its noble look, dignity and modesty advancing in a fearless, calm and unperturbed disposition, and the godlike light shining upon all. The essential soul returns within itself and ascends to the One, transcending the phenomenal world and joining the One. We call this reunification with the One “Joy”.

The Four Tools are the tools of the four castes, and basically mean you need to raise one skill each from the Farmer, Warrior, Wizard and Ruler spectrum to mastery (does this mean 90% skill, as per rune lord, or a more modest 75% skill. (Rune Priest or God Talker skill requirements are as low as 50%. I would restrict the Rune Lord equivalence to the next level of New Hrestoli mastery, and not make every Man-of-all a rune lord equivalent. The uppermost echelons of the New Hrestoli would correspond to Rune Lord-Priests or some similarly overpowered theist status, perhaps cult hero. Definitely a mastery as heroquester.)

This could mean maintenance of equipment or horse-care (worker, farmer). sword (warrior), reading and writing (wizard) and riding (noble - it is a form of a command skill, after all).

Even among the Irensavalists, a Man-of-all is first and foremost a defender of their society. If sorcery is just a tool to achieve henosis, a sort of Tai Chi for the military arm of the Kingdom of Loskalm, then it does make sense to teach only a very esoteric combination of technique and rune. What rune would you suggest to a freshly consecrated Man-of-All of Irensavalist background?  Stasis (as stand-in for Law)?

But what if sorcerous practice is supposed to yield practical results in the Loskalmi army. What are the spells that the army would prefer its veterans to have? Not talking about short term spirit magic enhancements, but about sorcerous spells of some practical use. Upkeep spells like Mend Flesh or Preserve Item (should be a favorite in hygiene-obsessed Loskalm) might be wanted by at least a solid portion of the men-of-all, possibly depending on the order/branch they joined.

 

10 minutes ago, metcalph said:

They wouldn't cast sorcery in combat (most sorcery spells have to be big to be effective and there's no way a starting guardian is capable of that) preferring spirit magic and possibly their own rune affinities. 

Agreed. On the other hand, the old RQ3 rule that Loskalmi knights could only manipulate the intensity of sorcery spells under that system doesn't apply to RQG. A man-of-all may well be expected to maintain some minimum level of say Boon of Kargan Tor or Preserve Item on their equipment.

By "rune affinities" I suppose you mean runic augments?

 

10 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The sorcery spells they have would be rituals like medispection (examining your own conduct for error).  Once they have proven themselves to be worthy then they are permitted to learn other types of sorcery.

How would you measure this worthiness? 50% success chance in this spell? And how would you formulate such a spell using Dispel as the technique?

Your own conduct - this sounds like the Man Rune, or perhaps Truth or Harmony. Or (if paired with Dispel) the "opposite" trait of these (Beast, Disorder, Illusion).

 

 

10 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There's a tension in the Loskalmi description between the neo-spartan ideal and the otherwise normal country.  I think the guardians are meant to be professional troops which argues against the Loskalmi boy-scouts approach.  The literacy requirement for sorcery doesn't fit either approach and so I suspect the Loskalmi have an alternate means of instruction that helps to control access to sorcery.

Cult Lore could include verbatim recital of the scriptures, but I don't see why you would saddle the guardians with a costly Tai Chi magic requirement and then balk at making them able to read. I like the concept of obligatory literacy in this neo-platonic setting.

The Man-of-All is supposed to work well in coordinated mass action, but also as solo fighter. Your normal army member too thick or too unambitious to achieve sorcerous henosis may be trained mainly in coordinated mass action unless a specialist like a tracker/outrider/hunter.

The literacy requirement might be as little as learning the text by rote and being able to trace it on the document with the index finger while reciting it. An actual writing skill might be overkill.

 

[Joerg]

29 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The guardians struck me as citizen-soldiers. They might very well keep farming and/or crafting or whatever while being trained and even between exercises, deployment and wars or whatever.

They strike me as a cadet organisation for future Men-of-All. Their tasks include guarding the community from external foes as much as the maintenance of order and harmony, and the latter could well be in their worker-caste jobs.

But then many a zzabur-caste or talar-caste jobs in conventional Malkioni schools may have had to be reassigned into newly made worker occupations. (Trade is often a talar-caste activity as it is about resource management and allocation, for instance.) And with the guardians in the Loskalmi military, infanterist appears to be a worker-caste occupation, too.

Workers may include scriptorium aides (preparing writing materials like parchment or inks) and gaining their basics in writing (in addition to reading), or possibly processing alchemical materials from raw ones. Such careers might start a wizard career.

But then, that career branch is supposedly only made after successful ascendance into the ranks of men-of-all.

 

29 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

We don't really hear about that because as guardians, possibly because their other livelihood goes from being their main activity to be, at least conceptually, incidental.

Only the Men-of-All are completely reliant on their community support, having surrendered all of their property to the Hrestoli community. (Upon acceptance, or throughout their career? )

This means to me that guardians don't rely that much on community support. To pick up the Four Tools of Dawn Age Hrestolism, a guardian candidate would be one who has mastered his Tool.

The military has 15 guardians and 9 men-of-all for each First Brother (fighting wizard). But is the military the only place for guardians (and men-of-all) to appear in?

 

But interesting as the New Idealists may be, I am more concerned with the normal they and the Rokari developed from. On both the less ideal corners of Rokari-dominated Malkionism and in the wayward niches re-discovered by Halwal in Ralions and Fronela.

 

 

29 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Just speculating. This all does come down to just how many guardians are. A pre-industrial civilization can't sustain a huge amount of non-productive individuals, so anything above 1-3 percent full-time soldiers seems very, very iffy. If it's a seasonal thing, however, there might be many, many more.

We have numbers for the Loskalmi military in active service - it is 55,000 "men", out of a population of 3.2 million. That's 1.72 percent. Allowing for veterans beyond active service and trainees about to enter the military, and a portion of civil contract fighting force like mercenary guards for travelers or police forces, the numbers hold that scrutiny.

[metcalph]

52 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

Zzaburist sorcerers equate this experience with Solace, and Rokari-schooled sorcerers probably do so, too.

The moment you start flinging around ugly jargon such as Irensavelist and Zzaburist, I lose interest.  Don't waste time on deep philosophy or what other glorantha think - it's needless irrelevance.

Quote

 

Anyway, I don't see why the Irensavalists would deviate that much from the Dawn Age True Hrestoli Way:

There you go again!  Dawn Age True Hrestol Way!  Was there a True Hrestol Way in the Imperial Age?  No?  Then Dawn Age isn't really needed. But why specify the True Hrestol Way who were just one of many Hrestoli groups at the time?  

Quote

The Four Tools are the tools of the four castes,

Where is this from?  I'm discussing Loskalm as is and have little interest in debating some hoary text that you don't have the decency to give a reference to.

Quote

Even among the Irensavalists, a Man-of-all is first and foremost a defender of their society. If sorcery is just a tool to achieve henosis, a sort of Tai Chi for the military arm of the Kingdom of Loskalm, then it does make sense to teach only a very esoteric combination of technique and rune. What rune would you suggest to a freshly consecrated Man-of-All of Irensavalist background?  Stasis (as stand-in for Law)?

Well, you throw around the term Irensavelists and leave it undefined so I really don't know who you are referring to here.  Why not just say Loskalmi?  So much more readable.  Is there a Man-of-All who doesn't worship Irensavel?  The use of Tai Chi is likewise obscure but I do believe I said Henosis first, other sorcery later, so I really don't know what you mean by newly consecrated.  A guardian?  A wizard?  A first brother?

No wait, I have a better idea.  Rather than go through another person's writings with dense paragraphs why not outline HOW YOU FEEL THE HRESTOLI WOULD WORK IN THE RUNEQUEST RULES.  That way we can get a better sense of your thinking rather than having to wade through cryptic terminology.

Quote

But what if sorcerous practice is supposed to yield practical results in the Loskalmi army.

The RuneQuest Sorcery rules make that highly unlikely.  It's far easier for men to know Heal 6 or Heal Wound (mechanisms for knowing yet to be determined) then it is to posit an army where a caster of Mend Flesh is on hand (I doubt it would be more common than one in a hundred in which case the Loskalmi army is pretty much screwed when it fights foreigners). 

Quote

 A man-of-all may well be expected to maintain some minimum level of say Boon of Kargan Tor or Preserve Item on their equipment.

Why?  Their sorcery is for the closer understanding of the Hidden Mover.  Flashy spells on their equipment seems rather vulgar.

Quote

By "rune affinities" I suppose you mean runic augments?

Also Rune Magics.

Quote

 

How would you measure this worthiness? 50% success chance in this spell? And how would you formulate such a spell using Dispel as the technique?

Runic affinities are used for Rune Lords and I see no reason to re-invent the wheel.

Quote

 

Cult Lore could include verbatim recital of the scriptures, but I don't see why you would saddle the guardians with a costly Tai Chi magic requirement and then balk at making them able to read. I like the concept of obligatory literacy in this neo-platonic setting.

There you go again with the Tai Chi reference.  I really don't know what you mean by costly here and my objection about literacy was that effective sorcery requires it.  Regardless of whether you like it, making hardened warriors be skilled scribes at the same time sounds rather implausible.

Quote

The Man-of-All is supposed to work well in coordinated mass action, but also as solo fighter.

What are you referring to here?

Quote

Your normal army member too thick or too unambitious to achieve sorcerous henosis may be trained mainly in coordinated mass action unless a specialist like a tracker/outrider/hunter.

I do believe I said Henosis would be a requirement for learning other sorcery.  There's nothing to prevent them learning other types of magic and I repeat my belief that most Loskalmi combat magic is not sorcery but spirit and rune magics.

Quote

The literacy requirement might be as little as learning the text by rote and being able to trace it on the document with the index finger while reciting it. An actual writing skill might be overkill.

Reacquaint yourself with the literacy limits on sorcery (a sorcery skill can be no higher than read/write).  Given the levels of literacy  you are prepared to accept here, you condemn the Loskalmi into being pretty crap sorcerers.  That's why I felt they had an alternate means of instruction.

[Tindalos]

18 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

It's weird how we get sources that both say that the Brithini acknowledge the Invisible God, and apparently sources that say that the Brithini reject all "theism" whatsoever (or at least Zzabur seems to do so) and simply acknowledges the Laws.

They acknowledge the Invisible God as the Prime Mover, the first principle and start of the universe.

They just don't think that means it needs to be worshipped, especially with no benefit. To use a crude simile, it'd be like setting up a temple to the Big Bang and worshipping it.

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Citizen-soldiers just strikes me as a tad implausible in a Bronze Age society.  In the platonic original, the Guardians were full-time (and in the probable Spartan origin, they could afford to be full-time because the helots were providing for them).  Hence 2% guardians and a similar number on reserve sounds right to me.

Glorantha, despite the tagline, isn't a bronze age society though. Bronze isn't an alloy available only through vast regional trade networks and hoarded by the elites - it is a base metal, available to most people, thus making citizen-soldiery not only possible, but probably the norm. I posited that the Guardians would be somewhere between a particulatly well-equipped and well-trained Fyrd and Sword-Thanes.

However, if the evidence points in another direction, I am happy to go with that.

Clearly though, this does mean that it's not only guardians who receive physical and military training at an early age, as Loskalm will be in need of a levy-based military in times of crisis / Storm season.

[metcalph]

14 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Glorantha, despite the tagline, isn't a bronze age society though. Bronze isn't an alloy available only through vast regional trade networks and hoarded by the elites - it is a base metal, available to most people, thus making citizen-soldiery not only possible, but probably the norm.

I'm still not seeing the plausibility of part-time citizen soldiers. 

14 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I posited that the Guardians would be somewhere between a particulatly well-equipped and well-trained Fyrd and Sword-Thanes.

Except that the sword thanes are full-time professionals who make up the well-equipped and well-trained part of the Fyrd. And the Loskalm is supposed to have a civilised army superior to a mere Orlanthi Fyrd! 

14 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Clearly though, this does mean that it's not only guardians who receive physical and military training at an early age, as Loskalm will be in need of a levy-based military in times of crisis / Storm season.

I don't see Loskalm as having cadres of guardian cadets. If they are trained from an early age, wouldn't that conflict with the idea of citizen-soldiery? 

[Sir_Godspeed]

I'm not sure if we're operating with the same useage of citizen-soldiery here, tbh.

[metcalph]

7 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'm not sure if we're operating with the same useage of citizen-soldiery here, tbh.

Then what historical model are you using?