How to play a pure sorcerer

[Austin]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

i would add that I have significant knowledge of several of the real world magical traditions that have been mentioned as inspiration sources for sorcery.

Would you mind sharing those? I'm curious.

I seem to recall it being described as loosely rooted in "Neoplatonism" by persons on these forums but my memory says that was in a very unofficial context (rather than quoting/paraphrasing designers). I'd love to know what Stafford et. al. have noted as their inspirations. As something of a Platonist myself, that could be a lovely rabbithole to get myself lost within.

Quote

Yes, Presence was literally designed more or less as a fix for the perceived problems of exponential Duration, they should not coexist in the one rule system really. 

I'm ashamed to admit it took me quite a while to realize that while trying to reverse-engineer our houserules, but it was really the big "Doy!" moment that made me give up. FWIW I don't think combining the concepts worked awfully. It was just really, really, really clunky.

3 hours ago, g33k said:

And if you decide you want playtesters for these HR's... do speak up!    😉

Noted, if I give up and write a version for my game before Jeff gets to it . And if you'd like to see my rendition of our hybrid of Petersen's Glorantha/Tekumel sorceries, I'm happy to PM. However, I don't recommend playing it because I suspect it has the power to bestow migraines.

[davecake]

1 hour ago, Crel said:

5 hours ago, davecake said:

i would add that I have significant knowledge of several of the real world magical traditions that have been mentioned as inspiration sources for sorcery.

Would you mind sharing those? I'm curious.

I seem to recall it being described as loosely rooted in "Neoplatonism" by persons on these forums but my memory says that was in a very unofficial context (rather than quoting/paraphrasing designers). I'd love to know what Stafford et. al. have noted as their inspirations. As something of a Platonist myself, that could be a lovely rabbithole to get myself lost within.

@Jeff has mentioned Neo-platonism, so that is a relatively official source of inspiration. Also kabbalism, gnosticism (obviously especially Neo-platonic gnosticism), Hinduism (especially the four varnas), Zorastrianism. But mostly lots of Plato and Neo-Platonism. Of course these sources are not unified on many specifics, but nor are Gloranthan sorcerers (or Malkioni). I personally tend to think that anachronist magic that descends from some of those sources, like John Dee's Enochian, Hermeticism, etc can be useful inspirations for your later developments of sorcery such as God Learner or Arkati sorcery. 

[Tindalos]

6 hours ago, Crel said:

Would you mind sharing those? I'm curious.

I seem to recall it being described as loosely rooted in "Neoplatonism" by persons on these forums but my memory says that was in a very unofficial context (rather than quoting/paraphrasing designers). I'd love to know what Stafford et. al. have noted as their inspirations. As something of a Platonist myself, that could be a lovely rabbithole to get myself lost within.

This quick summary describes some of their religious influences, specifically: "In general, Malkioni philosophy can be thought of as mixture of Greek philosophy (particularly Platonic realism and Neo-Platonism) with Jewish Kabbalism and Neo-Platonic Gnosticism. They are endlessly fascinated with ascertaining the ideal (and therefore truest) forms of things, which is reflected in their art, their magic, music, and other aspects of their culture."

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, davecake said:

Common Divine Magic is a great big pile of useful divine magic, much of it both castable (instantly) in combat and of great tactical utility in combat, and practical utility out of it.

Please enlighten me... Spirit Block and Dismiss Magic (plus Heal Wound).. Good in combat (maybe). Two of them likely going to cost you a few RP to be effective.

 

Divination is of limited use (limited to what the God could possibly know).

The others certainly have their uses... Occasionally... 

 

 Spirit Block has a sorcery equivalent which can be cast in advance (to stronger than Rune Magic levels).

I'm not dismissing the use of Rune Magic, and I get what you're saying... But I'm disagreeing with the usefulness of it compared to sorcery (except in sudden melee combat... Which, even Common Rune Spells lack great value, and you need to keep a tight rein on).

[styopa]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

@Jeff has mentioned Neo-platonism, so that is a relatively official source of inspiration. 

I think the RQG rules are more about neoteniy than neo-platony.

 

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, styopa said:

I think the RQG rules are more about neoteniy than neo-platony.

Aren't magisaurs just aberrant neoplatonic dragons? Or am I thinking of someone else?

[styopa]

Relevant to general subject; I'll just leave this here.

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm not dismissing the use of Rune Magic, and I get what you're saying... But I'm disagreeing with the usefulness of it compared to sorcery (except in sudden melee combat... Which, even Common Rune Spells lack great value, and you need to keep a tight rein on).

We play that Divine Spells are guided by a god - meaning if you have an AOE spell, you can freely cast it amongst friends and it'll ONLY affect the bad guys.  (Note that this is in your GOD's pov...meaning that atheist sorcerer may get anything from a tingle to full effect, depending how sacreligious they've been....)

Also, zero chance of fumble.  Which as you can see, isn't trivial.

RQ3.9 spell fumbles.pdf

[davecake]

13 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Please enlighten me... Spirit Block and Dismiss Magic (plus Heal Wound).. Good in combat (maybe). Two of them likely going to cost you a few RP to be effective.

It's true that Dismiss Magic can cost a few RPs if you are up against powerful magic - but a single point can dispel a Befuddle or a Demoralise or a Madness, which can turn the tide of battle if it is on your best fighter. 

Multispell is obviously spectacularly useful in combat for anyone that has multiple useful Spirit magic spells, especially if they have a few stored magic points. Also stacked Disruption is very powerful. 

Warding is a great defence spell in any combat where you are defending a position and have a minute or so to prepare. 

Soul Sight lets you fight in the dark, lets you know which enemies are more magically dangerous, and lets you know about defensive magic so you can target offensive magic and Dismiss Magic appropriately. Essentially, it is useful in any combat involving magic casting, and more besides. 

Summon and Command Cult Spirit let you summon a useful ally (yes, in combat, it is not a ritual) and Command it to attack your enemies (or do whatever else it can do, which can include casting other magic, maybe healing - almost every cult has some useful spirits), and major cults can have many. 

13 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Spirit Block has a sorcery equivalent which can be cast in advance (to stronger than Rune Magic levels).

I have no idea what you even mean by 'stronger than Rune Magic levels' - there is no stackability limit on Spirit Block. 

The sorcery spell Spirit Warding is less effective than Spirit Block - a Spirit Warding will never 100% protect you against spirit attack, so if you have no way of attacking the spirits in return you will never be in a situation where you can ignore Spirit attack (3 points worth lets you effectively ignore Spirit Combat from normal spirits below POW 24, for example, no matter how many). In situations in which there are a lot of spirits, this difference is significance. 

Plus this is such a false comparison, because it is comparing a sorcerer who has effectively spent years in preparation to a normal divine magic user who has made no particular effort to prepare for spirits at all. Which really gets at my main point - you are effectively saying 'why, a sorcerer could imitate normal common divine magic by merely spending several decades in study, many points of POW in enchantments, and adequately preparing for the particular incident some hours or days in advance, and then he would clearly be superior to an initiate'. 

Lets dive into this example to illustrate the issue

Let us compare in the situation in which the spirit attack is not know to be happening in advance, that is in an adventure situation in which there is no particular reason to suspect spirit combat.

A character with Common divine magic access can be protected from spirits by simply casting Spirit Block at the beginning of the first melee round. 

A sorcerer can be protected from spirits by

- spending a season or two learning Spirit Warding in advance. 

- spending a few more seasons and/or a LOT of experience rolls to get their Spell ability high enough to be reliably cast. OR have happened to spend a lot of (time and magic point) resources i casting a long Duration version of the spell as part of their regular routine. If they have cast it in advance, it is probably a relatively low level so it is likely only defending against attack around 50% of the time. 

- if they have not cast it in advance, they have to spend two rounds or so casting, while under spirit attack, precluding them from attacking back - so if they fail to cast the spell they are usually in a much worse position than if they had never tried to. 

So the message is a sorcerer who spends multiple seasons of time and significant other resources is able to respond to spirit attacks in a less reliable and more resources heavy way than a beginning divine magic using PC who has put literally no thought into the issue at all. 

Now, multiple that by however many common divine spells you think are useful. We end up with a result something roughly like given a decade or so of preparation and significant investment of other resources, a sorcerer will be able to respond to unexpected threats and common problems with something like the flexibility of an average  beginning initiate. 

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Now, multiple that by however many common divine spells you think are useful. We end up with a result something roughly like given a decade or so of preparation and significant investment of other resources, a sorcerer will be able to respond to unexpected threats and common problems with something like the flexibility of an average  beginning initiate. 

Sorcerers have always sucked against spirit magicians. Why do you think the Hykimi gave them such nightmares?

[Mugen]

When Mongoose's RuneQuest was released, I toyed with the idea of a Sorcery system that was based on rune skills, and allowed the sorcerer to directly use the rune's power and create his own spells through the use of a few skills.Very similar to Ars Magica, with Rune skills as Forms and sorcery skills as Techniques.

[davecake]

9 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Sorcerers have always sucked against spirit magicians. Why do you think the Hykimi gave them such nightmares?

I though the Loskalmi were pretty smug about their ability to defeat spirit magicians?

Admittedly it is amongst the specialties of the Furlandan school, so they have an advantage over most sorcerers. 

But historically, the sorcerers seem to have won against the Hykimi when it came down to it. 

My main point though is that a sorcerer can have some reasonable magic against spirit magicians - if they take a few years to specialise in it, they can be roughly equal to a beginning initiate. A sorcerer can have reasonable generic magic defences like a divine initiate with Dispel Magic and Warding - if they take a few years to specialise in it. A sorcerer can have combat healing magic like a divine initiate with Heal Wound - if they take a few years to specialise in it. A sorcerer can summon a few interesting spirits, if they take a few take a few years to specialise in it they can be roughly equal to a beginning divine initiate With Summon and Command Cult Spirit. A sorcerer who take a few years to work on magic perception spells can be roughly as good as a initiate with Find Enemy, Sanctify and Soul Sight. And so on. 

In theory a specialist sorcerer can be pretty good at any given form of magic. In practice, they are hugely behind in their ability to respond to a range of unexpected threats and have a magical response to many routine problems, and both spirit magicians and most divine magicians (eg any with all common Rune spells) have a huge advantage over any individual sorcerer. And getting to the point where they have that collection of basic spells, let alone at a reliable level, is a huge undertaking in time and resources. 

In practice, choosing sorcery over any other form of magic makes you a much less flexible, mostly weaker, magician in RQG. This certainly applies for pure sorcerers, but also applies to Lhankor Mhy sages choosing sorcery over Spirit magic (presuming they are not restricting themselves only to LM cult spirit magic). You do get to have a small number of potentially powerful sorcery spells, but you really pay in flexibility of response. 

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, davecake said:

It's true that Dismiss Magic can cost a few RPs if you are up against powerful magic - but a single point can dispel a Befuddle or a Demoralise or a Madness, which can turn the tide of battle if it is on your best fighter. 

Multispell is obviously spectacularly useful in combat for anyone that has multiple useful Spirit magic spells, especially if they have a few stored magic points. Also stacked Disruption is very powerful. 

Warding is a great defence spell in any combat where you are defending a position and have a minute or so to prepare. 

Soul Sight lets you fight in the dark, lets you know which enemies are more magically dangerous, and lets you know about defensive magic so you can target offensive magic and Dismiss Magic appropriately. Essentially, it is useful in any combat involving magic casting, and more besides. 

Summon and Command Cult Spirit let you summon a useful ally (yes, in combat, it is not a ritual) and Command it to attack your enemies (or do whatever else it can do, which can include casting other magic, maybe healing - almost every cult has some useful spirits), and major cults can have many. 

I have no idea what you even mean by 'stronger than Rune Magic levels' - there is no stackability limit on Spirit Block. 

The sorcery spell Spirit Warding is less effective than Spirit Block - a Spirit Warding will never 100% protect you against spirit attack, so if you have no way of attacking the spirits in return you will never be in a situation where you can ignore Spirit attack (3 points worth lets you effectively ignore Spirit Combat from normal spirits below POW 24, for example, no matter how many). In situations in which there are a lot of spirits, this difference is significance. 

Plus this is such a false comparison, because it is comparing a sorcerer who has effectively spent years in preparation to a normal divine magic user who has made no particular effort to prepare for spirits at all. Which really gets at my main point - you are effectively saying 'why, a sorcerer could imitate normal common divine magic by merely spending several decades in study, many points of POW in enchantments, and adequately preparing for the particular incident some hours or days in advance, and then he would clearly be superior to an initiate'. 

Lets dive into this example to illustrate the issue

Let us compare in the situation in which the spirit attack is not know to be happening in advance, that is in an adventure situation in which there is no particular reason to suspect spirit combat.

A character with Common divine magic access can be protected from spirits by simply casting Spirit Block at the beginning of the first melee round. 

A sorcerer can be protected from spirits by

- spending a season or two learning Spirit Warding in advance. 

- spending a few more seasons and/or a LOT of experience rolls to get their Spell ability high enough to be reliably cast. OR have happened to spend a lot of (time and magic point) resources i casting a long Duration version of the spell as part of their regular routine. If they have cast it in advance, it is probably a relatively low level so it is likely only defending against attack around 50% of the time. 

- if they have not cast it in advance, they have to spend two rounds or so casting, while under spirit attack, precluding them from attacking back - so if they fail to cast the spell they are usually in a much worse position than if they had never tried to. 

So the message is a sorcerer who spends multiple seasons of time and significant other resources is able to respond to spirit attacks in a less reliable and more resources heavy way than a beginning divine magic using PC who has put literally no thought into the issue at all. 

Now, multiple that by however many common divine spells you think are useful. We end up with a result something roughly like given a decade or so of preparation and significant investment of other resources, a sorcerer will be able to respond to unexpected threats and common problems with something like the flexibility of an average  beginning initiate. 

Methinks you're deliberately ignoring many factors here.

You talk of 'flexibility' of the average beginning initiate - while bypassing the POW sacrificed to cast all those spells. Once the sorcerer has sacrificed the POW for the Rune or Techniques, they can spend the season in learning any spells associated with them (obviously, with other Runes and Techniques as well...).

All of the Divine magic spells are limited by the number of Rune Points you have available... and unless you're using Extension, they're lasting all of 15 minutes. What's worse, once gone, it's going to take a while to be able to cast them again (ie, regain the Rune Points). The smart sorcerer is going to inscribe most spells to keep Free INT at max (POW equivalent), and perhaps the occasional Spirit Binding Matrix for the MPs.

It's amusing that you say Warding is great if you have a minute or 2 to spare... when that's your biggest objection to sorcery (time - although I'm not ignoring time to learn to reliable levels). And Protective Circle allows any protective spell cast on it to defend all within it (ie, your Spirit Block now does everyone!

 

Each of the spells (except Multispell) you mentioned above have sorcery equivalents which don't suffer the drawback of being lost as soon as they're cast, and can be kept on 'permanently'. (sure, different effects, but still...).

Sure, your chances of casting immediately after you've learned the spell are pretty sucky, but you can enhance that... and then, the next day, you can do it all over again with another spell which can last weeks/months...  If they're tapping, then they can cast until the cows come home (an obvious reference to Broken Tower...). Even ignoring the augment and ritual practices, if you get it wrong, try it again a minute (or hour) later...

 

Going back to spirits.... the sorcerer can (granted, the next round) take your bound spirits off you - and even have them attack you! Unless your attacking people of your own cult (possible with Sartar...). That's something no Rune Spell is doing - and certainly not Common ones! Given the melee round or 2, and it's also possible your Summon and Command Cult Spirit has just been made a liability!

 

"a sorcerer will be able to respond to unexpected threats and common problems"

Yes... and it's this "unexpectedness" that's largely at the core of this. I agree that your average initiate (and even RL/GT/RP) will have some nice flexibility of options for very little investment.... for the first unexpected threat... and maybe even the second, and possibly even the third... but once they've used up all their Rune Points for the season,, they're SOL, and the sorcerer is still casting away with full functionality.

 

And the cruelty of Neutralize Rune shouldn't be under-estimated.

 

Again, I'm not trying to dismiss Rune Magic, and it's certainly powerful. I'm just arguing against the idea that sorcery isn't very useful for players (which seems to be your stance), or that it's not flexible.

 

 

(btw - is there a Runefix that makes INT part of the magic category modifier? It's just weird that sorcery is based off CHA instead of INT).

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Shiningbrow

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

My main point though is that a sorcerer can have some reasonable magic against spirit magicians - if they take a few years to specialise in it, they can be roughly equal to a beginning initiate

Except... that a beginning initiate gets to cast all of 3 spells about once per season... at around 60% chance. That includes any stacking...

Compared to the beginning sorcerer, who can cast a few spells with ok duration, almost as many times as they want.

The Rune caster is also limited in both number and type of spells that the sorcerer isn't as much. Sure, they can create a matrix, but otherwise they're limited to CHA in RPs (unless in multiple cults). In theory, the sorcerer can create as many damn spells as they want with the Runes and Techniques they have - including combinations... 1-2 seasons (depending on GM fiat, etc) can have that sorcerer casting a spell that leaves the Rune caster gasping in amazement... (Moonfire would be an example... but change the Moon for something else). Once you've learnt 3 Elemental Runes, you're really set for stuff no cult can reproduce (yes, I know... not 'reliably' unless you specialise - but even then, I'd suggest the sorcerer can come up with spells that help augment sorcery).

[Austin]

35 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

You talk of 'flexibility' of the average beginning initiate - while bypassing the POW sacrificed to cast all those spells.

One POW sacrificed provides access to one special Rune spell and all common Rune spells the cult provides.

The ceiling on sorcery's return on a POW investment is higher, but it takes a while to get to that ceiling. Consider two adventurers who each have sacrificed seven POW for their magic.

For a sorcerer with INT 18, this fills out their options for Runes and Techniques (2+one per point of INT above 13). Assuming no MP problems (having access to matrices, crystals, etc) they need one Technique, either Command or Tap, and then some combination of Elemental, Power, and Form Runes. Form's the trickiest, since they can't be intuited from an opposite. They keep one spell memorized, and any others dormant. They know no spirit magic spells. Their Free INT is 17. Let's assume they know Command, then Earth (intuiting Fire/Sky and Darkness), Air (adding Water), Spirit, Man, Death, and Truth. You potentially have access to a great deal of useful spells, such as Ward Against Weapons and Logician. However, that sorcerer will never be able to learn spells which require the Beast, Chaos, Disorder, Harmony, Plant, Movement, or Stasis Runes. The sorcerer has access to a broader range of spells than the cultist at this level, but still has some inherent restrictions on what magic they can learn.

(The above sketch might not be wholly optimized for Runes known, but I think it gives a reasonable picture.)

Let's assume, generally, that for a spell to be relevant you want a strength of 5. That leaves you with 12 Free INT for duration, one week. So your strength 5 buffs last for a week, and typically require oodles of MP because you're only using the Command technique. You could get higher through further investments of POW into inscriptions. Each point spent there is very inflexible--you're spending a point to get better at one thing instead of all of your things. It's a good long-term investment, but as said before, it's slow. Now, you don't have a cap on how much POW you can invest--a theist does, with RP capped by CHA (although enchantments, quibble quibble quibble--not worth it).

Every week you cast Ward Against Weapons 5 and Spirit Warding 5. An average sword attack (1D8+1) has about a 45% chance of being prevented (5.5 average damage rounding to 6). An average ghost's spirit combat damage (POW 4D6, CHA 3D6, combined average of 24-25) is right on the line between 1D6 and 1D6+1, averaging 3.5 or 4.5. This is blocked by Spirit Warding either 60% or 50% of the time, rounding up both. If the incoming damage wins this roll, the sorcerer is taking full effect. Even assuming a sorcerer with very large inscriptions and spells, there's always the 5% chance to overcome (although this  is loosely parallel to getting a critical success with weapon attacks).

In contrast, a theist with an investment of seven POW has seven Rune points. They can use these to cast any of seven special Rune spells--not all of the spells available to the most common cults (Orlanth & Ernalda), but a substantial majority. The "good" ones, to a player's perspective, including the options from associate cults. They could choose to cast one at two points for a year, but then wouldn't have any Rune magic for that year. Not a great option, but Shield 1 for a season leaves 2 points left for common magic and isn't a crazy choice--free Countermagic against the first round of Befuddle or Disruption. They typically have a good chance of casting, with an absolute minimum of 50% (bottom requirement to become an initiate) and more likely 70-80%, based on adventurers I've seen in actual play--I've never seen someone make an adventurer with 60% or less in all of their cult Runes.

The real difference shows up in combat. The theist can cast right away, and still make attacks in that round. The sorcerer has spells already cast. If this is a Boon of Kargan Tor with strength 4 (for 2 weeks, because you're not gonna use strength 5 for no benefit) that's giving +1D6 to attacks, average 3.5. The average sword attack referenced above now deals 9 damage--nowhere near enough to break past a parry, but enough to have decent chance of disabling a hit location on someone with 13-15 HP past good armor. But if the Orlanth cultist invokes Shield on SR1 or has it set up from Extension, that bonus is always reduced, instead of maybe (with Ward).

I'm assuming no damage bonuses anywhere in this, and I'm assuming the sorcerer's not going to attempt casting spells in combat. I'm also trying to assume it's just one theist and one sorcerer.

At some stage, the POW investment starts to favor the sorcerer, but this takes quite a while--probably, in my guesstimation, an amount of time after which the theist has become a Rune Master. Using the same seven POW as above, if a sorcerer wanted only Ward against Weapons, that requires 2 POW (Death/Fertility, and a suitable Technique). Add the other five POW to a WaW inscription, and you get strength 10 for a week. That still leaves the average sword attack a 30% chance to sneak through. And that's five POW that isn't contributing to anything else the sorcerer does; it's only contributing to how good they are at Ward Against Weapons.

I don't think anyone's saying, realistically, that sorcery's ceiling isn't completely bonkers. If you've got a POW budget of 30 to toss around, you're gonna have a few really powerful spells prepped and have access, potentially, to a huge variety of spells. But the amount of time and energy for an actual gameplay adventurer to reach that stage is substantial. Hugely substantial. At the seven-POW mark, the theist's options are more consistent because they don't rely on the resistance table, and are more flexible due to the diversity of spell access.

(That's not something I think I got into adequately above for the sorcery. Hypothetically, that sorcerer could know dozens of specific, useful spells. In practice, it's unlikely that they'll know more than INT, I figure, because they can learn at most one per season and must hunt down their spells from books and teachers, which seems more difficult to me than finding a temple, or one with an appropriate associated shrine. And I'll note that I've left out a theist's spirit magic entirely.)

44 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

1-2 seasons (depending on GM fiat, etc) can have that sorcerer casting a spell that leaves the Rune caster gasping in amazement... (Moonfire would be an example... but change the Moon for something else).

1-2 seasons of time isn't an amount of time which can be taken as "for granted" by an adventurer. That's two adventurers in which something can go wrong, leaving the sorcerer dead. (I'd also note that Moonfire, IMHO, is an example of a badly written spell  same with Steal Breath.)

47 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

a beginning initiate gets to cast all of 3 spells about once per season... at around 60% chance.

As mentioned above, I can't imagine that an adventurer would be created with only a 60% chance in their main Runes of use. Most adventurers I've seen use their 50 elective points to boost the relevant Runes.

Also, several cults get to worship for RP multiple times a season. For example, Issaries has a minor holy day (for 1D6 on successful Worship) every Wildday which one of my players makes regular, persistent abuse of, trying for Spell Trading and using/selling Analyze Magic. Orlanth and Ernalda are both worse, thanks to their piles of associated cults and their better magic.

I think the most important overall point is that while a sorcerer's potential is flexible, in practice they're very, very good at a couple specific spells, due to the POW economy required for making inscriptions. I think they need more POW than an equivalent theist does to become dangerous. At CHA 18, a Rune Lord has 18 RP. For a sorcerer with their Runes+Techniques filled, that would be 11 POW dedicated to inscriptions. That's probably two, maybe three spells boosted. They have the option of a pile of spells, but will only have a few set up for effects both powerful and lasting, and are limited for what spells they are actually ready to cast at a moment's notice.

In contrast, the theist's potential is more static, and has a much lower ceiling, but within the same amount of POW spent, the theist seems stronger. The sorcerer only becomes certainly stronger, to my eye, once they've spent a fair bit more POW than the theist. The stage at which the theist begins to slow seems to me the point where the sorcerer's just starting to really grow.

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Crel said:

I think the most important overall point is that while a sorcerer's potential is flexible, in practice they're very, very good at a couple specific spells, due to the POW economy required for making inscriptions. I think they need more POW than an equivalent theist does to become dangerous. At CHA 18, a Rune Lord has 18 RP. For a sorcerer with their Runes+Techniques filled, that would be 11 POW dedicated to inscriptions. That's probably two, maybe three spells boosted. They have the option of a pile of spells, but will only have a few set up for effects both powerful and lasting, and are limited for what spells they are actually ready to cast at a moment's notice.

In contrast, the theist's potential is more static, and has a much lower ceiling, but within the same amount of POW spent, the theist seems stronger. The sorcerer only becomes certainly stronger, to my eye, once they've spent a fair bit more POW than the theist. The stage at which the theist begins to slow seems to me the point where the sorcerer's just starting to really grow.

Which is how it should be. In the societies that sorcery predominates, a tiny minority of the population are sorcerers, protected and supported by the rest of the population. In some societies, the sorcerers are a literal Ivory Tower, removed completely from the experience and problems of the rest of society, so that they might better focus on what really matters - rigorous logic and abstract reasoning! In others, to become a sorcerer requires experiencing the suffering of the rest of society, so that you might better understand existence. The most powerful human sorcerers mentioned in the Guide are of great age - Theoblanc is over 150 years old and those great sorcerer-warriors of Loskalm all did their studies during the Ban (when everything functioned perfectly - including training and experience gains).

The God Learners accomplished their wonders through heroquesting as much as through sorcery - but their techniques are fortunately mostly lost.

[Brootse]

48 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Which is how it should be. In the societies that sorcery predominates, a tiny minority of the population are sorcerers, protected and supported by the rest of the population. In some societies, the sorcerers are a literal Ivory Tower, removed completely from the experience and problems of the rest of society, so that they might better focus on what really matters - rigorous logic and abstract reasoning! In others, to become a sorcerer requires experiencing the suffering of the rest of society, so that you might better understand existence. The most powerful human sorcerers mentioned in the Guide are of great age - Theoblanc is over 150 years old and those great sorcerer-warriors of Loskalm all did their studies during the Ban (when everything functioned perfectly - including training and experience gains).

The God Learners accomplished their wonders through heroquesting as much as through sorcery - but their techniques are fortunately mostly lost.

Haha, didn't know this

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, Crel said:

.<snip>

I'm not disagreeing with the math, but am trying to point out that playing a pure sorcerer isn't a stupid idea and a waste of time.

A pure sorcerer in a game is a great boon, and quite clearly capable of things the theist not only isn't, but will never be!

In most small sudden skirmishes, the theist is going to win hands down... The first time... And probably also the second, and depending on rank or experience, the third... 

After that, you're out of RP, and miles from a shrine... And the sorcerer us laughing at you. Cos she's still got all of her buffs up, and can cast more. (Depending on the spell choice, and adventurers - it might just be the sorcerer who has to help the theist where the nearest shrine is!) At worst, (assuming spirits, not MP enchantment) the sorcerer only has to wait 1 day to be fully recharged.

 

(Also, re: Runes... Don't forget that when casting Associated Cult spells, you're not using your Rune anymore, but theirs).

Both clearly have pros and cons. And both excel in different situations. Pure sorcerer is a viable, useful option.

[Joerg]

37 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

the sorcerer only has to wait 1 day to be fully recharged.

Only if he carries enough MP generators (or uses the "indirect tapping" of having his team-mates fill up phis MP matrices) to return to five to six time the human racial max in available magic points. Your average full manipulation spell takes about 30 MP if you infer only a single rune or technique.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Joerg

[davecake]

15 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Except... that a beginning initiate gets to cast all of 3 spells about once per season... at around 60% chance. That includes any stacking...

Well, 60% for elemental or 75% for Power starting usually a bit more - possibly +10% cultural bonus, plus whatever of the 50% assignable is used to boost Runes relevant to their cult (in practice, almost always some of of it. Because Common divine magic uses the highest of the cult Runes, in practice their chance will be almost always 75% or higher. So this argument is pretty weak and incorrect, as frankly that compares pretty favourably to sorcerers, who likely will have many spells at a lower %age. 

But it’s true that they get less spells to cast. Lucky almost all divine magic users also have good access to spirit magic and no reason not to load up on it (except you, Lhankor Mhy and friends who made Bad Choices), so they can mostly keep there Rune Magic use for emergencies. 

My argument is that sorcerers are lacking in flexibility, not about overall capacity. But it’s notable that problem with flexibility doesn’t go away either - an experienced member of a Rune cult is also learning new Rune magic spells as the sorcerer is (slowly) learning new spells, and spirit magic too, and often pushing their Rune %ages up too. 

(Note that the sorcerer is often using their POW increases more or less running on the spot in this comparison, making spell matrices etc to preserve their Free INT for little real net gain)

Pin general, a divine magic initiate gets a limited use, but powerful, Swiss Army multitool, with a useful capacity for most situations they might find themselves in. The sorcerer gets a couple of big hammers, and spends the rest of their adventuring career more or less hoping they only encounter the right kind of nail. 

[Mugen]

37 minutes ago, davecake said:

Note that the sorcerer is often using their POW increases more or less running on the spot in this comparison, making spell matrices etc to preserve their Free INT for little real net gain)

Matrices (or their RQG counterparts, inscribing a spell IIRC) can also be created with more POW, to beat (Free) INT limitations and save MPs.

Of course, you'll only do it for very few spells.

[Jeff]

So basically David's complaint is that Gloranthan sorcerers make lousy adventurers. I agree for the most part. LM sorcerers work (I've now seen enough in play) because they are using their sorcery to enhance their information gathering abilities. Same thing with Irrippi Ontor sorcerers - they are largely using it to enhance their core abilities (and that Discern Lightfore spell can be surprisingly useful). But these cults aren't pure sorcerers - they are just replacing their (rather lame) spirit magic with sorcery.

Pure sorcerers - by that I assume you mean Rokari or Loskalmi wizard - aren't intended to be adventurers (especially given that the Invisible God is not even detailed at this point). Its RuneQuest, so yes, you can play them (just like you can play a malfunctioning dwarf or a rootless elf) but you are swimming upriver. That's not that the RQG sorcery rules are problematic, but that you seem to have a different view of what sorcerers are than the writers of the setting and the game.  

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

(except you, Lhankor Mhy and friends who made Bad Choices).

I don't understand this... LM sorcerers can still learn Spirit Magic... You just don't get to choose any at character creation. Nothing stopping you from purchasing later...

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

My argument is that sorcerers are lacking in flexibility, not about overall capacity. But it’s notable that problem with flexibility doesn’t go away either - an experienced member of a Rune cult is also learning new Rune magic spells as the sorcerer is (slowly) learning new spells

I'm disagreeing with the flexibility angle. I suggest they have more, and in almost every situation other than the unexpected immediate combat, are probably better than theists... Especially anything taking more than a few minutes (unless you want to use up RPs on Extension). 

Your theist is learning new spells about the same rate (or slower!) than the sorcerer (unless we're taking availability into account). The theists need to succeed in their POW-gain rolls. The sorcerer needs to find a book, scroll, teacher, or just work it out over 1 season (at INT x ?%). Given that the sorcerer can effectively mimic (to some degree) *any* Rune or Spirit magic spell, plus create others that the theists (and definitely shamans) can't, I'm baffled by this "lack of flexibility" argument (overall... Not specifically in the heat of the moment options you've said).

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Pin general, a divine magic initiate gets a limited use, but powerful, Swiss Army multitool, with a useful capacity for most situations they might find themselves in. The sorcerer gets a couple of big hammers, and spends the rest of their adventuring career more or less hoping they only encounter the right kind of nail. 

Sorry for the split post...

Again, I disagree... As per above and creation of new spells.

 

(Just to clarify my stance... Personally, I'd play LM or IO, and take all 3 options 😄)

Edited August 24, 2019 by Shiningbrow
Typo

[davecake]

38 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm disagreeing with the flexibility angle. I suggest they have more, and in almost every situation other than the unexpected immediate combat, are probably better than theists...

And I think your arguments are essentially terrible ones based on wishful thinking rather than the actual rules. That whole point about spells starting out at a tiny percentage , and being very hard to improve, ruins your optimistic version unless you presume a very very friendly GM. 

Though we don’t really disagree that much. Just change ‘unexpected immediate combat’ to ‘any situation that requires a flexible response, including all adventuring’, then I only think sorcerers are several years behind their theistic counterparts... 

[davecake]

44 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I don't understand this... LM sorcerers can still learn Spirit Magic..

Of course they can. And every single spirit magic spell makes them a worse sorcerer. If they are going to be significantly competent spirit magicians, why bother with the sorcery at all? 

42 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Personally, I'd play LM or IO, and take all 3 options

You’d be ignoring that spirit magic vs sorcery trade off, so using more spirit magic jus5 means your sorcery is mediocre, and it is difficult to cast the long duration powerful spells that are the best thing about sorcery. And of course, if you try to bypass it with Matrices or Inscription, then you become weaker at Rune magic, because you are spending POW on something other than Rune magic. IO does have a great advantage though, in that they have access to some of the best offensive Rune Spells in the game, plus a much more interesting collection of sorcery spells. 

(The real winners are folks like Kygor Litor or Aldrya or Golden Bow, shamans with good access to Rune Magic, IMO. But add some Illumination and sorcery if you really want to crazy)