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Crel

"Super" RuneQuest

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I come across stuff as I read occasionally referring to a version of old heroquesting rules as "Super" RuneQuest. Does anyone know where I could actually read those rules? To my knowledge, I've not actually seen a writeup, just references. I think it's from late 80's/early 90's era?

I remember reference in conversation with a friend to rules where, while heroquesting, adventurers might have their skills divided by from 2 to 20, depending on how difficult the quest was; and that from there was the general shape of otherworld heroquesting.

I know it won't be canon and hasn't been for a long time, but I'm curious to see for myself what that approach looked like. Thanks!

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5 minutes ago, Crel said:

I come across stuff as I read occasionally referring to a version of old heroquesting rules as "Super" RuneQuest. Does anyone know where I could actually read those rules? To my knowledge, I've not actually seen a writeup, just references. I think it's from late 80's/early 90's era?

I remember reference in conversation with a friend to rules where, while heroquesting, adventurers might have their skills divided by from 2 to 20, depending on how difficult the quest was; and that from there was the general shape of otherworld heroquesting.

I know it won't be canon and hasn't been for a long time, but I'm curious to see for myself what that approach looked like. Thanks!

I've used these rules a few times, they worked, and most important of all, we had fun:

http://www.soltakss.com/hero2.html

Thanks Soltakss!

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1 hour ago, Crel said:

I come across stuff as I read occasionally referring to a version of old heroquesting rules as "Super" RuneQuest. Does anyone know where I could actually read those rules? To my knowledge, I've not actually seen a writeup, just references. I think it's from late 80's/early 90's era?

Stephen Marsh put together some rules on using RuneQuest on HeroQuests, as did Steve Maurer. Unfortunately, I don't have links to either. I used to link to Steve Maurer's site, but that seems to have been down for 20 years. I've got some faded printouts from some digests, somewhere, that I used as a base for HeroQuesting.

1 hour ago, Crel said:

I remember reference in conversation with a friend to rules where, while heroquesting, adventurers might have their skills divided by from 2 to 20, depending on how difficult the quest was; and that from there was the general shape of otherworld heroquesting.

That was one thing that a lot of people do. On the Hero Plane, divide skills by 5, on the God Plane divide them by 10 or 20. It means that higher-skilled PCs are more manageable and allows GMs to have higher-skilled denizens without them appearing over the top.

Other things were there, for example no Divine Intervention, Magic Points don't regenerate, so you had to drink from Magic Point Pools to regain them, Runespells could not be reprayed, wounds would not heal naturally and so on, mostly due to the absence of Time. Also, Death may or may not have been found, so in some cases you die but don't die. They generally had a concept of Will, or Will Power, that allows you to mould the Hero Plane as you want it, mainly to get powers on HeroQuests, I don't use Will/Will Power in my heroQuests, as I don;t see the need for it.

1 hour ago, Crel said:

I know it won't be canon and hasn't been for a long time, but I'm curious to see for myself what that approach looked like. Thanks!

If you manage to track it down, then please post a link.

1 hour ago, Brootse said:

I've used these rules a few times, they worked, and most important of all, we had fun:

http://www.soltakss.com/hero2.html

Thanks Soltakss!

Thank you!

I have used HeroQuesting in Glorantha for probably 30 years and have developed my framework over that time. It won't be to everyone's tastes, but has worked for various groups.

I've also got some HeroQuests and odds and ends at http://www.soltakss.com/indexheroquesting.html.

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1 minute ago, soltakss said:

That was one thing that a lot of people do. On the Hero Plane, divide skills by 5, on the God Plane divide them by 10 or 20. It means that higher-skilled PCs are more manageable and allows GMs to have higher-skilled denizens without them appearing over the top.

Other things were there, for example no Divine Intervention, Magic Points don't regenerate, so you had to drink from Magic Point Pools to regain them, Runespells could not be reprayed, wounds would not heal naturally and so on, mostly due to the absence of Time.

Yeah, this is the sort of stuff I remember from conversations.

2 minutes ago, soltakss said:

If you manage to track it down, then please post a link.

Definitely will! However, will confess that I'm asking here because I've already been unable to track it down, including some "acquiring" of old OOP fan material like Tales. It's an appropriately irritating quest, to find something I see maligned as not in the spirit of heroquesting, but unable to actually read it.

8 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I've also got some HeroQuests and odds and ends at http://www.soltakss.com/indexheroquesting.html.

I've used this before! Sandals of Darkness, so the adventurers could sneak into enemy territory collectively. As an aside, it may have become canon shortly after in my game that the trollkin's sandals are constantly being stolen while they're home in Pavis. More by teenaged lay members imitating than for significant magical benefit (though who knows, after all...).

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9 minutes ago, Crel said:

I've used this before! Sandals of Darkness, so the adventurers could sneak into enemy territory collectively. As an aside, it may have become canon shortly after in my game that the trollkin's sandals are constantly being stolen while they're home in Pavis. More by teenaged lay members imitating than for significant magical benefit (though who knows, after all...).

That's the trouble with HeroQuesting, you make yourself a target. Also, it's much easier stealing a Trollkin's Sandals of Darkness that those of a Priestess of Kyger Litor.

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Just now, soltakss said:

Also, it's much easier stealing a Trollkin's Sandals of Darkness that those of a Priestess of Kyger Litor.

Definitely. The trollkin adventurer is... shall we say, not smart? INT 6. So he's basically just zoned out half the time and growing used to getting manhandled by strangers for his sandals. All started when, after they helped a Wind Lord steal the sandals off a KL priestess one of them quipped "Well, we've got a troll right here, kind of..." or something like that.

So he's always got different shoes. Rarely new shoes, but often different. Adds a bit of whimsy to the game.

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1 hour ago, Crel said:

So he's always got different shoes. Rarely new shoes, but often different. Adds a bit of whimsy to the game.

Cool!

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If there's one Actual Play I'd watch or listen to it would be someone playing through a heroquest. I can find a lot of stuff written about the structure and overarcing stories of heroquests, but very few details (stat blocks ;) ). There's a reason I once bought the Apple Lane scenario book instead of settling for "the adventurers have to defend the pawn shop" and "the adventurers are tasked with clearing a cave system of troll bandits".

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18 minutes ago, Puckohue said:

I can find a lot of stuff written about the structure and overarcing stories of heroquests, but very few details (stat blocks ;) ). 

There are seldom any stat blocks because the stats really depend on the PCs doing the HeroQuest. Most GMs say that a HeroQuest opponent is going to be roughly at the same level as the HeroQuestors. So, I could write down stats for a Wind Lord, Death Lord and Ice Queen on the Hill of Gold, all with skills of around 150% and that would be no good at all for a 70% Yelmalian. 

It is better to give an idea of what you will find and let the GM write up the stats.

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Most of the SuperRuneQuest stuff exists in the form of some only very partially formalised house rules, nowhere near publishable or even semi-publishable as such. Mine too.

One of the better criticisms of it is that it's "RuneQuest with bigger numbers" (so implicitly, what's the point ?)

But the basic counterpoint is that RuneQuest (unlike say CoC) is theoretically an open-ended gaming system,  where skill % numbers in the 300s or 400s plus are supposedly achievable, and so on. But the rules system tends to break down up there ; hence various flawed attempts at patch jobs over the years, collectively referred to as SuperRuneQuest.

I've personally found that the square that's hardest to circle is the necessity IMO (elegance and design -wise) that RQ and SRQ should not theoretically nor mechanically contradict one another ; else you'll just end up creating a different BRP/d100 game related to RuneQuest, but different to and non-compatible with it. So implicitly, again what's the point ?

If RQ and SRQ characters can't interact with each other seamlessly, then your SRQ rules need fixing. That's my opinion anyway ...

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1 hour ago, soltakss said:

 an idea of what you will find and let the GM write up the stats.

Yeah the stat blocks comment was not so serious, but I’d love to see something more than ”an idea of what you will find”. Obviously I’m not making demands (how could I?), I’m just explaining what I’d find useful for my game.

Reading about having to catch a ride with a giant turtle gives me ”an idea”. A writeup of the heroquest as a playable scenario/adventure would detail the specific problems the heroquesters would face in trying to accomplish this, as well as descriptions of creatures and NPCs, details on the setting where this takes place, how to get there etc. No stats needed.

I know I can write my own material, but I would prefer not to.

Edited by Puckohue
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1 hour ago, soltakss said:

There are seldom any stat blocks because the stats really depend on the PCs doing the HeroQuest. Most GMs say that a HeroQuest opponent is going to be roughly at the same level as the HeroQuestors.

Having recently played through my first heroquest, I reckon this is dead-on.  The major obstacles in heroquests aren't opponents whose abilities are several orders of magnitude greater than the player-characters', but rather the characters' ability to gain admittance to the mythic stages of the quest in the first place.  If you ever manage to engage with a myth that includes the likes of Orlanth or Yelm, you'll be on relatively equal footing with them -- inferior characters need not apply.  Lesser characters start out pursuing lesser myths (like the clan legend that our characters re-enacted) and maybe work their way up the ranks.

I used to get all hung up on the whole scaling issue, not being able to wrap my head around the notion of a mortal taking on the gods in a conventional stand-up fight when crossing over into the God Plane.  But I've seen the light, and no longer think that's how it works.

!i!

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9 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

Most of the SuperRuneQuest stuff exists in the form of some only very partially formalised house rules, nowhere near publishable or even semi-publishable as such.

That's what I suspect. I recall stumbling across a fanzine comment in my digging that there was an in-house Chaosium "SuperRuneQuest" that got abandoned basically for the reasons you bring up, which in hindsight I suppose is the content I'm really curious about.

22 hours ago, soltakss said:

If you manage to track it down, then please post a link.

Having a name to hunt for, I did find a derelict site from 2003 (C) Steve Marsh here, with some relevant documents. I'm not sure if this is the sort of SRQ which has been referenced or not (it seems more to be about Rune ratings than D100 skills).

10 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

But the basic counterpoint is that RuneQuest (unlike say CoC) is theoretically an open-ended gaming system,  where skill % numbers in the 300s or 400s plus are supposedly achievable, and so on. But the rules system tends to break down up there ; hence various flawed attempts at patch jobs over the years, collectively referred to as SuperRuneQuest.

For what it's worth, I have a friend who played an RQ3 Wind Lord long enough to get his base sword skill up into the low 200's (somewhere between 220 and 250, I think?) without SRQ-type shenanigans, and he's rolled attacks at over 300% before thanks to buffs. So in at least one case, that type of skill is achievable even without dividing & re-multiplying the skill before/after a HQ. (He also played that character for like a decade or more so y'know that might not be a great go-to example...)

9 hours ago, Puckohue said:

A writeup of the heroquest as a playable scenario/adventure would detail the specific problems the heroquesters would face in trying to accomplish this, as well as descriptions of creatures and NPCs, details on the setting where this takes place, how to get there etc. No stats needed.

I know I can write my own material, but I would prefer not to.

A "Book of Heortling Heroquests" in this style would be useful to me, too. Maybe even just with notes like "make a Fertility test here" or "this enemy will have the same base combat skills as the questor."

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On 8/19/2019 at 8:41 AM, Crel said:

A "Book of Heortling Heroquests" in this style would be useful to me, too. Maybe even just with notes like "make a Fertility test here" or "this enemy will have the same base combat skills as the questor."

Who knows, when the Jonstown Compendium comes live, something like that might appear. I'd hope so.

On 8/18/2019 at 10:40 PM, Puckohue said:

Yeah the stat blocks comment was not so serious, but I’d love to see something more than ”an idea of what you will find”. Obviously I’m not making demands (how could I?), I’m just explaining what I’d find useful for my game.

Generally, you find out from the Myth or the HeroQuest.

So, if I am Yelmalio on the Hill of Gold, I am going to fight Orlanth (Probably a Wind Lord or Initiate), Zorak Zoran (Probably a Death Lord or Initiate), Inora (Probably an Ice Queen or an Initiate) and some Chaos (Maybe Broos, Scorpionmen, Ogres, Gorp or other assorted Chaos). Those are fairly self-explanatory.

If I go on the Sandals of Darkness Quest, I am expecting a bunch of Trolls, probably following Kaarg or Kyger Litor. Same if I do Orlanth breaks Gore/Gash's Legs. 

However, some foes are deliberately vague and can be almost anything. So a Storm Foe could be Orlanth, Storm Bull, Valind, Gagarth or whatever. Same with a Darkness Foe.

Other HeroQuestors have a part as well. If you have a Personal heroQuest Foe, then they will appear in unlikely guises. So, a Personal HeroQuest Foe who is Yelmalian might show up as Yelmalio, Yelm, King Griffon, or the Red Emperor and may even show up as Elmal as a friend of the HeroQuestor.

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