Robber Barons

[SirUkpyr]

Hello everyone!

 My PKs have heard that a nearby castle (Paincastle near Hay in the Adventure of the Dolorous Wyrm in Savage Mountains) is run by a robber baron, and they want to go deal with him.

 

Now I've got the information on what type of castle he has (Motte & Bailey with wooden palisade, stone keep, and a stone tower guarding the gatehouse), but I've no idea what the Baron himself (titled the "Lord of Pain") would be like, outside of a cruel mean dude.

 

Are there any published adventures which deal with "robber barons"?

How many men would he have? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Et Arthur est servitium

SirUkpyr

[Atgxtg]

29 minutes ago, SirUkpyr said:

Hello everyone!

 My PKs have heard that a nearby castle (Paincastle near Hay in the Adventure of the Dolorous Wyrm in Savage Mountains) is run by a robber baron, and they want to go deal with him.

Now I've got the information on what type of castle he has (Motte & Bailey with wooden palisade, stone keep, and a stone tower guarding the gatehouse), but I've no idea what the Baron himself (titled the "Lord of Pain") would be like, outside of a cruel mean dude.

Are there any published adventures which deal with "robber barons"?

There is a series of linked adventures for reclaiming some holdings in Oxford for the Countess of Rydychan (THE ADVENTURE OF THE OXFORD USURPERS in the GPC, although a longer form exists for 4th Edition), as well as the ADVENTURE OF SIR GORBUDUC THE FIEND. Both present holdings taken by evil "men" and detail their followers a bit.

29 minutes ago, SirUkpyr said:

How many men would he have? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Well since the Lord of Pain holds a strong Motte & Bailey then you have to assume that he either had the strength to take it, or at least that the has the strength to hold and maintain it. Otherwise someone else would have driven him out. 

 

I'd start off assuming he has the wealth and land of a small estate holder or so- basically enough for someone to be able to build the castle, and give him the same number of men as a estate holder with that much land. Then I'd reduce the quality of most of his troops (sergeants instead of knights, maybe bandits or Poor Quality spearmen instead of normal foot soldiers and archers) and maybe their numbers, to reflect how greedy the Baron is, or how reluctant men might be to work for him (because he is cruel and could take it out on his own men). It's possible that many of the common soldiers doesn't like they guy, but have little choice in the matter. That should give you a place to start from and a lot of leeway.

 

The biggest obstacle for your PKs, IMO, will probably be the walls of the castle. Unless the Pks can afford to raise a small army, and siege equipment to breech the walls, they have no real way of getting to the Baron.unless he wants to ride out to face them. That is unless the PKs can sneak into the castle or catch him away from the keep.

 

 

[Morien]

It is also possible that the Robber Knight is raiding the neighbors and hence able to field a larger army than his 'own' lands would allow. Also, they might be squeezing their own peasants more than normal nobles would. So it really depends how difficult you want to make it for the PKs.

[SirUkpyr]

One comment they made was... "well - if he's not getting food - he will have to surrender" - so I'm thinking they might try and starve him out. They just killed the dragon and are feeling very "we got this!" - so it should be interesting.

Thanks muchly for the "Oxford" reminder - I may acquire the 4th edition PDF to check out the "longer version" which Atgxtg mentioned.

Morien, thanks also for the "depends how difficult" comment.

I'm going to make them work for it, but if are smart they will be able to weaken him sufficiently to succeed.

[Atgxtg]

7 minutes ago, SirUkpyr said:

One comment they made was... "well - if he's not getting food - he will have to surrender" - so I'm thinking they might try and starve him out. They just killed the dragon and are feeling very "we got this!" - so it should be interesting.

That's the basic siege approach. The problem is that it's hard to do. Basically the Pks need to have enough men to keep the defenders penned in. If they don't then the defenders will sally out and try to drive them off. Typically "starving them out" take a long time (months or even years) and the Pks will have the same problems for their forces. 

 

7 minutes ago, SirUkpyr said:

Thanks muchly for the "Oxford" reminder - I may acquire the 4th edition PDF to check out the "longer version" which Atgxtg mentioned.

It's not in the core 4E book. I'll go through my books to let you know which one it is is. 

 

49 minutes ago, Morien said:

It is also possible that the Robber Knight is raiding the neighbors and hence able to field a larger army than his 'own' lands would allow. Also, they might be squeezing their own peasants more than normal nobles would. So it really depends how difficult you want to make it for the PKs.

Yup, not to mention the harvest, stewardship, sickness,  castle stores, or how much wealth he has on hand to hire mercenaries. A GM could pretty much make the adventure as difficult (or as easy) as he wants. 

7 minutes ago, SirUkpyr said:

I'm going to make them work for it, but if are smart they will be able to weaken him sufficiently to succeed.

A band of PK, by themselves, will probably be hard pressed to do much more than raid and harass the Baron. Maybe kill a few men, burn some fields but not much more than that. The Baron would probably send out a large band of men to deal with the knights, with good odds (2:1-4:1, or better depending on the quality of troops), but if that doesn't5 work he can hole in in the castle. The thing is, a siege mostly favors the Baron as he has the castle and should have supplies while the PKs have to forage for everything or send out men to buy it - which gets expensive. Castles exist for just this sort of situation. 

[Morien]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

It's not in the core 4E book. I'll go through my books to let you know which one it is is. 

Lordly Domains. 

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Morien said:

Lordly Domains. 

Thanks for the assist!

I wonder if someone has compiled an index of what's where for KAP?

[Morien]

5 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I wonder if someone has compiled an index of what's where for KAP?

I have seen lists of adventures by book, as well as a suggested year-by-year list.

Can't remember what thread it was, though.

[SirUkpyr]

Thanks again to both Morien (for which book to look in) and to Atgxtg for good ideas.

I'm thinking that if the PKs are smart they will taunt his honor to the point where his men start going "is he really as strong as he says he is". Most times, a bully is a coward at heart, so if the PKs can kill enough of his people while taunting his honor, they may be able to cause the robber baron's own men to start deserting.

The points about time and money will be fun to watch.

[Morien]

17 minutes ago, SirUkpyr said:

his honor

The thing is... a robber knight ought to not have any. Not if he is a true villain rather than an antihero. And his men are likely likewise.

If the PKs are shouting insults at the castle, but don't have the strength to take it, why would the bandits turn against their leader? Better to sit tight and watch the PKs and their army starve and weaken. And then boys, we will kill every last one of them and loot the bodies! Good days will be here again!

How much riskier to hope that you can just sneak away without being caught? And even if you manage to flee, will you get to have as sweet a gig as this one was, until those dang heroes stuck their nose into it?

 

EDIT: And if the PKs have a large enough an army to make an assault possible, then they probably have enough men that sneaking away is risky, too. Cornered rats and all that.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Morien

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, SirUkpyr said:

Thanks again to both Morien (for which book to look in) and to Atgxtg for good ideas.

I'm thinking that if the PKs are smart they will taunt his honor to the point where his men start going "is he really as strong as he says he is".

That generally doesn't hold up under the circumstances. It would be like someone coming up to a tank and taunting the tank commander to open the hatch and step out where he can be shot at. It's not so much a matter of honor or courage, more like intelligence (or lack thereof). If it were that easy, then there'd be no reason to spend all that libra on fortifications. 

The only way that sort of taunting would work would be if there were some sort of personal feud going on between a PK and the robber baron, or if there was some previous challenge that could only be settled man to man. But just riding up to within earshot and calling the Baron a coward all day long for not coming out from behind his walls won't cut it.

 

4 hours ago, SirUkpyr said:

Most times, a bully is a coward at heart, so if the PKs can kill enough of his people while taunting his honor, they may be able to cause the robber baron's own men to start deserting.

Possibly, but unlikely. In general if the PKs manage to defeat one or two groups of his men, why would he keep sending them off to be slaughtered? If the PKs can deal with one group of minions then he could either try to take them out with numbers, or hold up in his castle until they go away, starve, or have business elsewhere (like back at their liege's court). 

Generally speaking this sort of thing isn't all that practical for PKs unless the enemy is fairly weak, or the PKs can get inside somehow. Otherwise all the advantages go to the defenders. That's one of the reasons why someone else hasn't cleared the guy out already. 

 

4 hours ago, SirUkpyr said:

The points about time and money will be fun to watch.

I ran one good siege in my current campaign, and it really turned into a grind, with the PK defender doing his best to delay a superior opponent, knowing well how expensive the siege would become if he could hold out long enough. 

[Username]

I would say that there is precedence for a knight coming out from a castle to duel the taunters. The most prominent example is Gawaine taunting Lancelot and defeating his knights one by one and then losing to Lancelot. It's, in fact, what kills Lancelot. I believe Gawaine also challenges an enemy in a castle in "The Knight in the Cart" by Chretien. But, I may be mistaken with another Chretien work.

Despite this, I would second though, that it would be unlikely that a robber baron wouldn't just stay in the castle as that is more of their personality. However, that would be a "typical" robber baron. Mechanically, I would rule that the players would have to taunt a passion and hope to trigger a notable passion. Force the robber baron to roll the passion and then come out of the castle impassioned to duel the taunter one vs one. Interfering by other players would equal honor loss for all involved. Probably at least 2 points maybe more if the robber baron was killed by treachery.

A very Arthurian resolution if the robber baron wasn't actually that bad, would be for them to swear vassalage to the victor.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Username

[jeffjerwin]

A lot of what we might call "robber barons" in the romances are knights who set up shop at a ford or crossroads and joust for ransom... Certainly Username is correct that others simply sally out of their castles to take on passing strangers. But the most insidious break hospitality and imprison people who stop in the castle by night. The classic robber baron encounter is really the last one, and if handled well, the player knights could turn the tables by pretending to be 'innocent travelers'.

Of course there are many ways to get inside a castle that don't involve a dragged out siege, as history, Robin Hood, and assorted movies will tell you.

[Username]

11 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

But the most insidious break hospitality and imprison people who stop in the castle by night. The classic robber baron encounter is really the last one, and if handled well, the player knights could turn the tables by pretending to be 'innocent travelers'.

That's definitely the classic. Breaches of hospitality really seems to be the thing that defines someone as a bad guy. Though it's not always played straight.

[Atgxtg]

13 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

 But the most insidious break hospitality and imprison people who stop in the castle by night. The classic robber baron encounter is really the last one, and if handled well, the player knights could turn the tables by pretending to be 'innocent travelers'.

Oooh, now that's a great way to run something like this. The PKs could set themselves up as bait, appearing as rich but weak pilgrims to lure the robber baron out. 

Quote

Of course there are many ways to get inside a castle that don't involve a dragged out siege, as history, Robin Hood, and assorted movies will tell you.

Yup. In a similar adventure I ran long ago, a knight killed his liege and took over the castle-then tried to force the dead leige's daughter to marry him in order to legitimize his claim. In that adventure the PKs defeated some knights sent out to capture the aforementioned daughter,  then some of the PKs swapped armor shields with the enemy.

The PKs  just rode up to the gate disguised as the enemy, with the "prisoners" and just ordered the gate opened. It worked like a charm. 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2019 by Atgxtg

[Hzark10]

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

The PKs  just rode up to the gate disguised as the enemy, with the "prisoners" and just ordered the gate opened. It worked like a charm. 

Hope nobody with an awareness of 20 is standing guard...

[Morien]

1 hour ago, Hzark10 said:

Hope nobody with an awareness of 20 is standing guard...

Even less than, since they would probably know one another quite well. But with enough luck and high enough Deceitful...

(Personally, I think a better ruse, believability-wise, would have been to just have the equal number of riders if possible, but with the lady (or a disguised squire, since crossdressing as a ruse of war or tournament is apparently allowed; even Lancelot did it!) in tow. Then it would look like just a routine 'caught her' rather than 'and who the heck are those prisoners?'. But it is hard to argue with success...)

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Hzark10 said:

Hope nobody with an awareness of 20 is standing guard...

More like Recognize than Awreness. The guards on watch knew someone was riding up and demanding the gate to be opened, they just thought it was someone else.

 

45 minutes ago, Morien said:

Even less than, since they would probably know one another quite well. But with enough luck and high enough Deceitful...

Idenifying someone who is in full armor, with the visor down, carrying a shield, at dusk isn't quite so easy. Once the PKs got inside and up close it would have been trickeir, but the PKs just brushed past claiming important infomation for the lord and got tot he keep before thier cover was blown.

45 minutes ago, Morien said:

(Personally, I think a better ruse, believability-wise, would have been to just have the equal number of riders if possible, but with the lady (or a disguised squire, since crossdressing as a ruse of war or tournament is apparently allowed; even Lancelot did it!) in tow. Then it would look like just a routine 'caught her' rather than 'and who the heck are those prisoners?'. But it is hard to argue with success...)

Yes, that would have worked out much better. Even more justification for blowing off the guards and riding into the keep to  see the lord with the damosel. I'm not sure if any of the Pks would have risked the dress though.

[Tizun Thane]

On 8/19/2019 at 5:12 PM, SirUkpyr said:

Are there any published adventures which deal with "robber barons"?

The best adventure is probably in Saxons! when the wife of a character is kidnapped by a robber baron. It contains good NPC. Otherwise, in the Dragons of Britain #1, there is robber knights in his castle.

His "lord of pain" nickname strikes me as a really evil dude. I would make him a fiend. Maybe this lord of pain wants to marry the heiress to enforce his claim. Maybe she is in a nunnery or something...

[SirUkpyr]

Oh lots of very cool information.

Thanks Tizun Thane for mentioning both Dragons of Britain and Saxons, as I have both!

This group went through the Gorbudok the Fiend in the Forest Sauvage (or however it is all spelled) before, so another fiend might not make them blink as much. We will see.

[Atgxtg]

It's not an official adventure, but some time back I had an evil knight seize a manor and kill the landholder and his family. The evil knight had some men, mostly low grade sergeants and bandits, plus a redcap! Legends of recaps note that they sometimes will serve an evil Lord. The "Lord of Pain" would seem to be just the sort of fellow for a redcap to follow. That could give the Robber Baron some firepower while still keeping the numbers small enough for PKs to deal with. A redcap with a bunch of rabble to keep enemies dispersed is a formidable threat. 

 

 

[Cornelius]

Although the castle is a strong defence sometimes robber barons also have the backing of other (usually stronger) barons or they are at the edge of a lords land. It could be he is a pawn between bigger guys. It could be a ploy for one lord to keep another one busy. 

In Saxons! there is a sir Jauvre de Malestroit who holds a castle between Saxon and Cymri lands (on the edges of Kent). He raids both sides, but both sides also keep him in his castle because he raids the enemy as well as he is a barrier between both lands.

Also the 'Adventure of the Pitiless Tower' in Saxons! gives a breakdown of his troops and defenses.