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Jeff

Yelmalio again or Why I Ruined Your Glorantha Redux.

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10 hours ago, Jeff said:

Of course the little Sun Dome community removed for centuries from Dragon Pass and Peloria is an outlier.

No horses, for one thing.

13 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I wouldn't say they're completely misogynistic, though I wouldn't be surprised if in general they were a little. It is a solar cult after all, and we all know that in solar culture the woman's place is usually not the battlefield. It probably varies from temple to temple and member to member, but in general I think that the Yelmalians would be more open to the idea of women joining than most other masculine solar cults, either due to distance from the centre of solar power, the influence of surrounding cultures, or just the need for more soldiers. The only one I would describe as totally misogynist would be the Sun Dome County temple on the Zola Fel, and even then there was that one woman that you mentioned that worked her way into it despite the attitudes of her peers.

As @Jeff noted though, Sun County in Prax explicitly does permit women to become initiates, Light Servants, Light Priests, and Light Sons. The current Count (1627) is indeed a woman, (though in Hatshepsut fashion, she does style herself Count, not Countess). 

 

Edited by MOB

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23 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I don't really see it; Yelorna is a star and just because her cult is also solar and cooperates with Yelmalions doesn't make her Yelmalio's counterpart. I also don't see how their roles are particularly complementary - "sun cult involving horse warriors" is like 90% of solar religions.

She's also associated with the Praxian's Lightfore goddess, the Sun Daughter, from what I can tell.

I'm still guessing they're remnants of an earlier sun-horse kingdom of the early golden age.

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29 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

well okay i can see that now but it's also the cult writeup of Yelmalio, like, with deets and facts and structure. hard not to extrapolate?

I am looking at the cult writeup that will be in publication 2020. It is remarkably similar to the cult writeup from Cults of Prax. The details and facts are in the society of the Sun Dome temple in Prax, and not the cult itself. The Dragon Pass Yelmalio cult is far more connected to the rest of Dragon Pass (although still aloof and disdainful of others).

Which shouldn't be surprising. The old Elmal cults realised that their god is more than just a minor sidekick of Orlanth to be squeezed out in the conflict between Orlanth and Yelm, and is the  god that protected humans from Darkness, freed the humans of South Peloria from the trolls, guarded the elves and forests, and remained independent and proud despite the selfish wars of Air, Cold, and Darkness. They realised Elmal was another name for Yelmalio, the god of the Sun Dome Temples and founded their own Sun Dome Temple with the support of the Prince of Sartar. They defeated the Kitori and bound many of them to the Earth instead of Darkness. They now form an independent tribe, who defend the Light in Dragon Pass.

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This still leaves the tribal Yelmalians among the Aldachuri and the Dinacoli.

Coming from Saird, these tribes possibly have been converted from Elmal for significantly longer while remaining Orlanthi rather than striving to imitate the Dara Happans - why else would they have fled from the Conquering Daughter into Dragon Pass?

The Aldachuri accepted dissidents from Vanntar, possibly about some of those policies which make Vanntar into a variant of Confederate Louisiana.

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7 hours ago, Jeff said:

I am looking at the cult writeup that will be in publication 2020.

WE'VE GOT AN OFFICIAL DATE OH MY GOD (cue Jason flying down on a griffin to edit the post and cast Befuddle on everybody)

8 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

well okay i can see that now but it's also the cult writeup of Yelmalio, like, with deets and facts and structure. hard not to extrapolate?

Are you talking about the cult writeup in RQ3's Sun County? (haven't read that yet... the cult writeup in Cults of Prax doesn't come across as misogynistic to me).

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13 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Are you talking about the cult writeup in RQ3's Sun County? (haven't read that yet... the cult writeup in Cults of Prax doesn't come across as misogynistic to me).

HQ Pavis, Gateway to Adventure. The entry on Vega Goldbreath is notable:

Quote

Vega is a Light Son and commander of the Sun Dome Militia. The only woman devotee [emph. mine] in Sun County, Vega Goldbreath rose to authority despite prejudice, derision, and chauvinism on the way to the top. Once married to Invictus, they were compelled to divorce as he achieved high cult rank. Invictus later married Vega’s twin sister, something she has never forgiven him for. She is intelligent and quick-witted, and hardly orthodox Sun County in her outlook.

So while the commander of the militia is a woman, she's also literally the only female devotee in Sun Country. (Her identical twin sister, Penta, is the Ernaldan chief priestess, hence an obvious remarriage choice.)

The writeup also mentions that Yelmalions are prudish about dress, particularly with regard to women. I think it is suggesting they actually veil their faces outside the home.

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13 hours ago, lordabdul said:

WE'VE GOT AN OFFICIAL DATE OH MY GOD (cue Jason flying down on a griffin to edit the post and cast Befuddle on everybody)

 

Nice picture... but I believe that there are 366 days in 2020 so I am not sure it is as much a DATE as a OFFICIAL YEAR. As the good doctors might say, your year might vary...

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Just now, Bill the barbarian said:
 

Nice picture... but I believe that there are 366 days in 2020 so I am not sure it is as much a DATE as a OFFICIAL YEAR. As the good doctors might say, your year might vary...

i think we just learnt that gloranthan days are longer but they have fewer days, I'm going to live on that planet

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1 minute ago, Qizilbashwoman said:
Quote

Vega is a Light Son and commander of the Sun Dome Militia. The only woman devotee [emph. mine] in Sun County, Vega Goldbreath rose to authority despite prejudice, derision, and chauvinism on the way to the top. Once married to Invictus, they were compelled to divorce as he achieved high cult rank. Invictus later married Vega’s twin sister, something she has never forgiven him for. She is intelligent and quick-witted, and hardly orthodox Sun County in her outlook.

 

Seems like chauvinism (or a smoking gun at least) to me. lordabdul and myself could easily be accused of male privilege here and not recognizing a truth that you point out. 

So from me,

 cheers.

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Just now, Bill the barbarian said:

Seems like chauvinism (or a smoking gun at least) to me. lordabdul and myself could easily be accused of male privilege here and not recognizing a truth that you point out. 

So from me,

 cheers.

I mean, it might just be Mo Baustra?

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24 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

As the good doctors might say, your year might vary...

22 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

i think we just learnt that gloranthan days are longer but they have fewer days, I'm going to live on that planet

The good doctor has obviously visited Glorantha (closed world, indeed, just try to stop a time lord with Handwavium in his or her deep pockets).

Edited by Bill the barbarian

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1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

So while the commander of the militia is a woman, she's also literally the only female devotee in Sun Country.

On the one hand, only devotee =/= only initiate; on the other, it's still a fair point. However, I likewise wonder what proportion of Orlanth devotees—Wind Lords & Storm Voices—are female. If Yelmalio fulfills the role of "men's god" in Praxian Sun County in a similar way that Orlanth is the general Sartarite "men's god," perhaps it's not unexpected that, proportionally, only one female worshiper of Yelmalio would be a devotee.

However, I do think in that context that it's worth noting the dynamic between Yelmalions & Ernaldans in Sun County seems quite different from that in Sartar, from what I've been following on this thread (I don't have much of the Sun County material myself).

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@Qizilbashwoman Since Jeff described the upcoming  Yelmalio cult write-up as "remarkably similar" to that from Cults of Prax, not Sun Country, you can breathe easier.  They are certainly "old fashioned" in attitude, women shouldn't  show bare arms and legs and such, but no talk of veils or the malicious predjudice faced by Vega.

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Each of the two Yelmalio settings that have been described in some greater RuneQuest detail have their alibi light lady of Yelmalio, although in case of Starnia Stormrender, she has rather few male rivals.

"Devotee" translates as rune level. I wonder how many templars will be (biologically) female.

Or is Vega just the only biologically female rune level in the Sun County hierarchy that openly identifies as female-gendered (i.e. taking on the female role in a marriage, risking or even welcoming motherhood - or at least a successful pregnancy)? What is the proportion of "covert females" in the ranks (including male-plumbed templars strongly identifying otherwise)?

The templars are likely to have "sacred brotherhood" relationships with fellow templars. No idea whether these are monogamous or polyamory in nature...

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3 hours ago, Jeff said:

It is just Mob of Australia.

There needs to be some reaction option halfway between laughing and crying, specifically for when you find out the origin of a Gloranthan name.

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2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

There needs to be some reaction option halfway between laughing and crying, specifically for when you find out the origin of a Gloranthan name.

Oh my time to resurrect “Puns we know and love” is it?

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31 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Oh my time to resurrect “Puns we know and love” is it?

That word after "and" is correctly spelled with "ath" rather than "v"...

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37 minutes ago, Joerg said:

That word after "and" is correctly spelled with "ath" rather than "v"...

ThOU doest not like Gloranthan puns, burn him!
with Yelm’s holy fire, of course!

Edited by Bill the barbarian

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12 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:
Quote

Vega is a Light Son and commander of the Sun Dome Militia. The only woman devotee [emph. mine] in Sun County, Vega Goldbreath rose to authority despite prejudice, derision, and chauvinism on the way to the top. Once married to Invictus, they were compelled to divorce as he achieved high cult rank. Invictus later married Vega’s twin sister, something she has never forgiven him for. She is intelligent and quick-witted, and hardly orthodox Sun County in her outlook.

So while the commander of the militia is a woman, she's also literally the only female devotee in Sun Country

She is a female devotee, so females can become devotees. How many devotees are there in Sun County? 

In Sun County, women are normally Ernaldans, so it is unusual for them to join Yelmalio, but they can. Vega is a Light Son, so is important in the cult. This shows that women can become Rune Levels in Yelmalio. 

I am not sure why that says that Yemlaio is misogynistic.

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2 hours ago, soltakss said:

She is a female devotee, so females can become devotees. How many devotees are there in Sun County? 

In Sun County, women are normally Ernaldans, so it is unusual for them to join Yelmalio, but they can. Vega is a Light Son, so is important in the cult. This shows that women can become Rune Levels in Yelmalio. 

I am not sure why that says that Yemlaio is misogynistic.

Of course this bit you're arguing does NOT say misogyny! 

But (a) you're ignoring how much she's an exceptional case, and (b) there's that bit you didn't quote... "prejudice, derision, and chauvinism on the way"... That kinda DOES say misogyny.  Luckily, we have Jeff telling us that the one temple is a bit of an outlier...

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14 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

@Qizilbashwoman Since Jeff described the upcoming  Yelmalio cult write-up as "remarkably similar" to that from Cults of Prax, not Sun Country, you can breathe easier.  They are certainly "old fashioned" in attitude, women shouldn't  show bare arms and legs and such, but no talk of veils or the malicious predjudice faced by Vega.

Yay

16 hours ago, Crel said:

I do think in that context that it's worth noting the dynamic between Yelmalions & Ernaldans in Sun County seems quite different from that in Sartar

Well, Ernalda and Elmal do have year-marriages in Sartar. Without King Orlanth monopolising Her time, Yelmalio has a different relationship.

I wonder why Ernalda in particular is popular in Sun County; I'm surprised there's not more Eirithans. Yes, I know She's the queen, but still.

Do the Sun Domers have a better relationship with Zola Fel and the Blue People than the Wahans?

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20 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Do the Sun Domers have a better relationship with Zola Fel and the Blue People than the Wahans?

In the Sun County book, there was a special heroquest that the counts underwent to gain the river's favour, recreating Yelm's protection of the Oslir River.

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32 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Yay

Well, Ernalda and Elmal do have year-marriages in Sartar. Without King Orlanth monopolising Her time, Yelmalio has a different relationship.

I wonder why Ernalda in particular is popular in Sun County; I'm surprised there's not more Eirithans. Yes, I know She's the queen, but still.

Do the Sun Domers have a better relationship with Zola Fel and the Blue People than the Wahans?

I think it follows from Yelmalio having a substantive place in Lightbringer myth cycles, not so much in the Survival Covenant myth cycles.

Yelmalio had a key role in survival through the Darkness, for the LBQ folk.

For the Praxians, wasn't it more "Star Captain" action from the sky?  And Yelorna, IIRC, has both Sun and Star-Captain associations...

Edit:  then there's the purely socio-political, with their whole "superiority" fetish & purity taboos, vs. the "commoner" aspect of Eiritha.  Might if have behooved them to make some overtures, maybe even some alliances?  Absolutely!  Was it in keeping with the mindset?  Absolutely not!

Edited by g33k
Eiritha

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7 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Yay

Well, Ernalda and Elmal do have year-marriages in Sartar. Without King Orlanth monopolising Her time, Yelmalio has a different relationship.

I wonder why Ernalda in particular is popular in Sun County; I'm surprised there's not more Eirithans. Yes, I know She's the queen, but still.

Do the Sun Domers have a better relationship with Zola Fel and the Blue People than the Wahans?

Ernalda is the main goddess in Sun County because they are farmers, not herders.

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