Yelmalio again or Why I Ruined Your Glorantha Redux.

[Akhôrahil]

42 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Yelmalio was not ever-victorious.

That's a very kind way of putting it. 🙂

[Akhôrahil]

52 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

And if we can flip the trope around even more, Yelmalio, a decisively male character, remains crippled for eternity after his injuries!

I remember a Hill of Gold write-up where gelding the Yelmalio quester was an option...

[Qizilbashwoman]

48 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I remember a Hill of Gold write-up where gelding the Yelmalio quester was an option...

Speaking of Hill-of-Gold, what are some of the scenarios that fit that encounter outside of Yelmalio proper? Because there are quite a few and it's really interesting.

The most surprising one I learned from Lunar lore!

* Yelm, where the cruel god is Orlanth and the god who weakened Him is Verithurusa, Yelm's daughter, who had born Umath's child and turned into the shunned venomous underworld bat. She poisoned Yelm and Orlanth slew him. She's on the God's wall as the other bat goddess. I wonder if the double meaning of "poison skirt" (Shepelkirt) in Theyalan comes from this form - menstruation and literal poison, rolled into one deity/demon.

Oh this allegedly happened on the "Dara Happan spike", hence Hill of Gold

Edited December 23, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, JonL said:

In Ivarna's case, I don't think she's an example of the fridging-trope

In Ivarne's case, this was a joke made because she's frozen, but it turned into a fustercluck instead of a mass giggle

[Qizilbashwoman]

12 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

stealing that pic for my own nefarious purposes, thanks Qizilbashwoman!

bill please for the love of god read SAGA it's a panel from the series and it's sooooo good

the lunars - yes there are lunars - speak esperanto and it's hilarious

Edited December 23, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

I remember a Hill of Gold write-up where gelding the Yelmalio quester was an option...

that's a cheat, you're not allowed to make life easier for the Yelmalion

[Tindalos]

18 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Speaking of Hill-of-Gold, what are some of the scenarios that fit that encounter outside of Yelmalio proper? Because there are quite a few and it's really interesting.

The most surprising one I learned from Lunar lore!

* Yelm, where the cruel god is Orlanth and the god who weakened Him is Verithurusa, Yelm's daughter, who had born Umath's child and turned into the shunned venomous underworld bat. She poisoned Yelm and Orlanth slew him. She's on the God's wall as the other bat goddess. I wonder if the double meaning of "poison skirt" (Shepelkirt) in Theyalan comes from this form - menstruation and literal poison, rolled into one deity/demon.

Oh this allegedly happened on the "Dara Happan spike", hence Hill of Gold

If you're meaning other myths based around the Hill of Gold, the old zine Enclosure had a bunch in the second issue.

There's also Elmal Guards the Stead. (With a skip between day 1 and day 4)

Vanyoramet and Antirius's quest to recover the Orb of the Eye is briefly recorded in GRoY

[Qizilbashwoman]

Just now, Tindalos said:

If you're meaning other myths based around the Hill of Gold, the old zine Enclosure had a bunch in the second issue.

you're killing me, how am I gonna get my hands on that

[Joerg]

32 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Speaking of Hill-of-Gold, what are some of the scenarios that fit that encounter outside of Yelmalio proper? Because there are quite a few and it's really interesting.

Antirius facing Shargash as the Cruel God.

 

32 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

The most surprising one I learned from Lunar lore!

* Yelm, where the cruel god is Orlanth and the god who weakened Him is Verithurusa, Yelm's daughter, who had born Umath's child and turned into the shunned venomous underworld bat. She poisoned Yelm and Orlanth slew him. She's on the God's wall as the other bat goddess. I wonder if the double meaning of "poison skirt" (Shepelkirt) in Theyalan comes from this form - menstruation and literal poison, rolled into one deity/demon.

Oh this allegedly happened on the "Dara Happan spike", hence Hill of Gold

The Dara Happan Spike could be the Footstool or the celestial tower in Yuthubars which hovers above Raibanth.

The Bat/Artia is another Southpath planet, red and small, and has been called a moon in one of the early stories in Fronela (Jonat, I think --I only got to see a list of Jonat's deities, including Resat the Storm God and Artia as a moon goddess)

The story of the Rebellion against the Emperor as told by Jar-eel in Prince of Sartar has four rebels - Orlanth Deathwielder, Shargash/Tolat wielding the Red Sword, Sedenya/Verithurusa in her red glory, and the Bat (death goddess of Rinliddi).

But then the Hill of Gold has only three opponents for the Solar quester before the final stage where he gets to face Chaos. Either Sedenya or the Bat might qualify as the Chaos opponent, though.

[Tindalos]

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Bat/Artia is another Southpath planet, red and small, and has been called a moon in one of the early stories in Fronela (Jonat, I think --I only got to see a list of Jonat's deities, including Resat the Storm God and Artia as a moon goddess)

She's also known as a moon in Dara Happa. (GtG 648)

 

Also it's possible the myth of Vinga and Erladivus could be another form of it.

And that's ignoring the possibility of that myth actually being based around the origins of the Berenethteli, with the Red Haired Goddess defeating the Solar God with a name obviously connected to Reladivus and his tribe submitting to Vinga's.

[JonL]

7 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

you're killing me, how am I gonna get my hands on that

Ask David Dunham very nicely? It looks like he's got some of the Enclosure material uploaded to his Glorantha site, but not that particular bit that I can see.@jajagappa is prepping a revised New Lolon Gospel for a Johnstown release so who knows, maybe some other blasts from the past will get a re-release.

@soltakss has some fun theme-and-variation on HoG from different perspectives in his quest collection too.

@Iskallor ran a PBF on rpg.net a few years back wherein the PCs get sucked into a Zorak Zoran quester's run at Hill of Gold, and (being PCs) knock it off the rails in the most awesome way possible.

 

[Jeff]

16 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

That's a very kind way of putting it. 🙂

Yelmalio was also victorious on many occasions. He defeated trolls, defeated Orlanth, and fought back against Chaos, 

[JonathanQuaife]

FWIW, I've always seen Yelmalio and Elmal as distinct but overlapping deities. I don't subscribe to the trend in RQG towards a simplistic syncretism across various gods.

The question is made more interesting by parallel gods: Tharkantus, Daysenerus, Antirius. And of course there's the pericope in King of Sartar which credits the revelation of the name Yelmalio to Munro. And finally there is this rather brilliant piece by Ian Cooper.

===

So, for me it goes like this:

Daysenerus was clearly revealed by Nysalor, and it seems reasonable to assume that this deity was the foundation of the militarised Sun Done temples. One of this deity's appellations must have been Tharkantus, since the sources seem to imply a drift in identification from one name to the other.

The location of the Sun Dome Temples suggests an affiliation of this Daysenerus-Tharkantus cult with Theyalan culture: perhaps a light deity for the Theyalans revealed by divine Nysalor. Such an affiliation explains the cult's adoption into the EWF, an adoption linked to the religion's appearance at Mo Baustra in Prax.

As a newly-revealed light god, Daysenerus-Tharkantus was not a sun. But the mingling of Theyalan and Dara Happan cultures among the Theyalans dwelling in the vicinity of the Oslir in the era of the Second Council did give rise to another and a different deity, and this deity was indeed a re-envisioning of their sun god. Their sun, Elmal, had never left the sky, but had endured on the shoulder of Kero Fin, suffering through the Greater Darkness. As such the Second-Council Theyalans recognised an affinity of their own divine sun with one of the Dara Happan sun gods, Antirius, the immortal part of Yelm, whose disk, unable to reconcile with death, appeared on the Eastern horizon even as it set on the Western rim. For these Theyalans Antirius and Elmal alike were the enduring sun, the labouring or ailing sun - yelm-ailio. Like "Tharkantus", "Yelmalio", was at first an appellation, not a name, and it may have, at one time, referred to an aspect of the sun associated with the planet Lightfore.

For the hill tribes who resisted Nysalor, the lowlanders' syncretised adoption of the Dara Happan sun, Antirius, was another manifested evil of the Gbaji Empire: despising this association, they clung to and celebrated their older Elmal traditions.

Centuries later, the Dragonkill changed everything.

The old Tharkantus temples were all but destroyed, clinging on in one or two isolated temples in Holay and Aggar, and in Prax, at Mo Baustra.

The Oslirian Theyalans remembered their sun as the enduring sun and sometimes ailing sun, sometimes remembered as Yelmalio but more often called by local names - Brightshield, Gutburner, the Shining One, Skypath, Sun Horse, Treeburner, and so on - and although their sun rites and magic were replete with Dara Happan influences, this god's direct identification with Antirius was all but forgotten.

The highland Theyalans in Heortland and the wildlands of Aggar and beyond still recognised Elmal as their sun.

Both Theyalan groups differentiated their sun god from the Emperor, another sun, struck down by Orlanth, and called "Yelm" by the Dara Happans. However, perhaps because of the deity's association with Lightfore as well as the sun itself, as the Pelorian Sevening Revelation began to influence surrounding lands, for the Oslirian folk, their sun god deity was increasingly seen in terms of a 'son of the sun' and as an attribute of the sun disc, rather than as the sun disc itself. The sun disc itself became synonymous with a more literalistic understanding of the Dara Happan deity Yelm.

By the time of the Sartar dynasty, the lowland sun customs and magic, by now quite distinct from the rites and powers of the Elmal cult, had begun to influence the practices of the less conservative upland clans in the vicinity of Dragon Pass, bringing the lowlanders' sun - and son of the son, Yelmalio - in conflict with the highlanders' sun - Elmal. This reflected other trends, for example the growing popularity among the Sartarite clans of lowland luxuries such as horse breeds, wines and exotic cloths; and the arrival of gentle proselytes who spoke of liberation and the liberating goddess. The initial coexistence of these varied Theyalan sun traditions soon descended into bitter controversies and feuds that threatened to divide the nascent Sartarite kingdom.

Tarkalor brought the answer to this problem in the form of the wild prophet from Prax, Munro. In the Sartarite tribes where the lowlanders' customs were gaining ground, communities were riven. At the same time, Tarkalor needed troll-fighters to bolster his war against the Kitorings-folk and thus his ambition to win the seat of the Sartar dynasty in Boldhome.

Munro's revelation was the undoing of the Kitorings. He saw the many suns, and understood the place of Yelmalio-Tharkantus-Daysenerus among them - sometimes as the sun itself, and sometimes not. In this sense he was perhaps the first to embolden the appellation "Yelmalio" in definitive cosmological terms. Such a bold manifestation of a new Truth bought him the support of the Sartar Kings. When the defeat of the Kitorings was complete, Munro settled their lands with his followers from Mo Baustra and with men and women from the Sartarite clans who chose to accept the new god and move away from their old Elmal traditions. This project of colonisation named its desmene Vanntar or Vaantar. Proselytes, and perhaps Munro himself, soon travelled to Holay and to Prax, and waning Sun Dome Temples were restored or reinvigorated through their recognition of the new religion.

===

I think this is much more interesting, offering more complexities and nuances in a Glorantha game than a simplistic Elmal = Yelmalio paradigm.

I actually wrote qab about Munro's revelation as a storytelling element in the background for the Greydog clan - this will be published one day. Here are some highlights:

===

Munro’s Vision of Many Suns

Each of these was my trial and my testing. 

First I was in the centre; I saw the innocent sun. 
Elmal-Orvorion: called Primolt, who lived as a child when the world was new. 
An angel called to me and I shed my robes and stood naked; all the gods could see my within. 

Then the world went askew and I saw the bloody sun. 
Elmal-Bloodbaned: called Ozarm, cut down. 
An angel called to me and I shed my blood and tears for the God; I thought I would die from the thirst that was unquenched. 

The world was dark, there was no sun. 
This was Krajlkelmal: called Kazkurtum, the Impossible Shadow 
of the Orb. 
An angel called to me and I gave up my soul; I wandered lost and in terror. 

I was below with the dead sun: I followed him there. 
Elmal-Grimortis: called Ajaf, Majesty in Darkness, the Spirit Sun.
An angel called to me and I cut out my heart for the God; heartless I feasted among the dead. 

I was among those who danced with joy at the eastern gates when our god rose again. 
Elmal-Theyaling: called Daysenerus, the Lightbringing God. 
An angel called to me and I sought the kernel of my hatred; I burned it away so that I could dance with His retinue. 

Then the Sun Horse spoke to me: the Glorious Golden One. 
The Pure One: he called me to the south. 

In the south I basked in the glory of the Ripening Sun. 
Elmal-Orfecundus: called Yelotralas, Barley Father. 
An angel called to me and I was tested: I became the father of 
many children. 

In the west I honoured the growing-old of the Sun and the Earth. 
Elmal Earth-Husband: called Tharkantus, the Wise and the 
Bounteous. 

An angel called to me and I sat in judgement: the Goddess was pleased and I knew her. 

I passed to the dim north and kept watch with our god against the Vadrudings and night-monsters. 
There I found Elmal Watch-Thane: called Asartcha, the Vigilant. 

An angel called me and I took up my spear; I struck down the Harbinger and his legion. 

Then, from within, the Bright One spoke to me, the Enigmatic. 

With beautiful words he tested me so that I looked upwards, where previously I could not, and viewed the Xenith. 
There I honoured the feet of the God. 
Elmal-Solaring: called Royal Yelmalio, the Brilliance of the Orb. 

He called me and I blessed My Lord and I said, “How can this be?” 

And with a voice of ten-thousand myriads of trumpets and ten-thousand myriads of cymbals he spoke to me and said: “I am 
all of these and none of them.”

===

When the council was convened Tarkalor asked Ingol to sit with him in the Hall of the Tribes. I sat with them too, and was glad of the opportunity to gather news from the prince regarding the war in the south. Tarkalor said that the Hendrikings were divided among themselves, and that some were suspicious of the aid that Tarkalor and his brother were lending from Sartar. Tarkalor also mentioned that King Jarolar had been offering the 
Elmaling Sartarite clans coin for their help against the darkness people, but when he had dragged his feet over the question of the new Elmal from the north they had refused to help him. It seemed the problem that Ingol had described among the Vantaros clans had come to roost among the Elmalings in Sartar also. 

Then the council convened. The discussion was long. The principle debate was led by two priests from Jonstown, one was named Varilmar, and the other was called Varthanis. Varilmar was saying that so many customs had come from the north that the Jonstown Elmal temple 
no longer served to honour the Sun Horse but rather some other blasphemous god of the Oslir.

Varthanis denied that there was any problem and trivialised Varilmar’s complaint as a lot of fuss over some of the temple dignitaries using gold icons in their rituals. 

Prince Jarolar and his lawspeakers generally seemed more sympathetic to Varilmar than they did to Varthanis—I must say I agreed with Varilmar too and shouted against Varthanis when we were called—but things changed when the funny-looking stranger Munro 
spoke up. 

You can read his words inscribed on the golden doors of the Sun Dome Temple if you ever go there, although as I said earlier, in those days there was no Sun Dome Temple. Munro seemed sympathetic to what Varthanis 
had to say, and opposed Varilmar. He said that he had seen the sun worshipped in many lands and that there were many suns worthy of worship. He said that his god was the most powerful of the suns and that this had been revealed to him in a vision when he was in the land of Prax. After this Munro began to recount his vision. 

When Munro had finished speaking it was Tarkalor who spoke next: he said that there was a need for Munro’s god to fight the Kitorings in Hendrikiland and that if his god was more powerful than the others then Munro should declare the deity’s name and prove that his power was greater than Elmal’s. In this way those who fought against the trolls could invoke the god’s name and magic against Vurgunzol and the darkness people in the south. 

But many of those Elmalings who supported Varilmar shouted with anger and said that Munro was offending Elmal and would cause their god to abandon the people. 

That was when Munro pledged to reveal the name and show the proof of his god and to fight for Tarkalor if the Prince in return would grant Munro and those who would choose to follow his god the lands that would be taken from the Kitorings.

Tarkalor said that the lands could be Munro’s if it was the hand of Munro that conquered them, and if King Jarolar permitted it. Tarkalor spoke with such charisma that it almost seemed unnecessary to seek the consent of the King. But anyway Jarolar said that he would agree to this if Varthanis and those who argued for him would join with Munro’s tribe and leave their own, thus ending the strife in Jonstown and among some of the other clans.

After Munro whispered something to him, Varthanis agreed, and when all was said and done Munro revealed the name and proof of his god. I was surprised that he did it out loud, in everybody’s hearing. He did it in the middle of the day, in the courtyard of the Palace of Kings. There was an altar made from cedar wood and Munro first offered sacrifices of pure-white bulls to all the Suns. Then he called upon Varilmar to invoke his god and beg him for a sign so that all who were present understood that Elmal stood among 
the people. 

Varilmar called upon Elmal and when he did the clouds in the sky were torn apart and the Sun Horse was there looking down upon us for all to see. Some people with the sight said that Elmal’s storm brothers moved among the crowd. When the invocation was spoken, flame took up on the altar for the god to burn and receive the sacrifices. 

Now after this Munro stood at the second altar and named his god. He said: 

My God is One God 
My Sun is One Sun 
And his name is Elmal-Yelmalio-Tharkantus.

And when he said this the air trembled and the sky darkened, but the sun stood bright. There was a sound like a thunderclap and the second altar was wrapped in a bright flame with a great heat that consumed the sacrifices like a hungry beast. 

I remember how people were struck by the power of Munro’s words. But the real miracle was not what everybody saw, but that everybody who heard Munro’s words understood, so that even some of those who had opposed him changed their minds and joined his tribe. This was the beginning of the new religion of Yelmalio.

 

[Techpriest]

Holy necro batman! 

 

No, Elmal and Yelmalio being the same makes sense, even when you look through the Book of Heortling Mythology. There's nothing there that contradicts Yelmalio and Elmal being the same entity, but the perspectives being different and thus different aspects coming to dominate the cults. Look at Shargash and Tolat for another example. Yelmalio is even more fascinating because, as a god that survived into the Grey Age, he made the world whole again through his actions which we see in the mythos of the Pentans and Dara Happans, and to some extent the Heortlings as well. 

Elmal/Yelmalio being the same and the Little Sun being Many Suns isn't a contradiction. The Many Suns is the contest to be the sun in the darkness, and that many solar cults all have an element of truth to them. Yelmalio is the bit of Yelm carved away by death, his light and illumination for the world that somehow survived and became separate and distinct, lesser but greater. Yelmalio is the same as his father in essence, but became his own deity through the darkness, conflicting with the other sons of the sun, the storm gods, the sea gods, and the darkness gods, but never gave up his fight even to the last to try and keep the lights on (pun intended) while Yelm was chilling in the underworld. 

Is his domain as large as his fathers? No. But he's closer to mankind and mortals than any solar deity bar Lodril, and his patronage of horses spread them through the world. He's got as many if not more distinct aspects to him (Yelmalio, Elmal, Antirus, Kargzant, Khelmal, Tharkantus for sure, and if you squint there's Vashanti over in Kralorea who matches well with Kargzant in 'going to the underworld to retrieve the sun in the grey age' and a few other of the Kralorean pre-dawn emperors including Daruda who the Kraloreans see as Lightfore though he's now firmly a dragon) as gods with far more vast spreads of knowledge and his followers are welcome almost everywhere under one of his names. This all being one god is not that crazy when you consider the dicotomy of Orlanth - Adventurous and Thunderous cults being of the same god was not accepted across the world and for non-Theylan cultures is somewhat shocking. 

I do think after the solar book comes out it'd be interesting to work up a way to show how distinctive his cults are from location to location and adapted to the cultures they're in but all share the common element of gift and geas and most rune magic. I don't see Kargzant's followers having Pike or Long Spear as cult skills for example! Regional differences between cults is always fun and Yelmalio/Elmal are great ways to show that. 

 

EDIT: 

The revelation that Montagh had was necessary and important because what was happening was the most logical thing from a linguistic and cultural contact perspective - for the first time, the southern Kethealans from where OOO was leading were making contact after hundreds of years once again with solar cultures and gods. Elmal (and somewhat Yelmalio) were tolerated cults by the Only Old One, but never powerful or popular. When these southern Orlanthi populations return to Dragon Pass, they take with them their understanding of Yelmalio in Elmal, an isolated and sidelined version of their god. They then come into contact with the Sairdites, who talk about their little sun and the connection really isn't made. After all, Elmal was Orlanth's friend, not his enemy, not his rival and so on, so those cults don't mix too much initially. But the ability for these solar cultists to live alone and totally fine amid the larger orlanthi population there does cause some problems. 

Then the Lunars take over Dara Happa and there's this new god who's coming in with a lot more power and a lot more standing than Yelmalio or Elmal - Yelm. He's the sun, who the Elmali clans have kind of been worshiping already as part of their veneration of Elmal. Suddenly, there's a lot of tension. Yelm is very firmly NOT orlanth's friend, NOT a god who plays nice with Orlanth cultists ruling over him and his, and has much more powerful magical and political backing than Elmal. This leads to political strife in the new kingdom of Sartar. Enter Montragh who can tell that Yelm the Bright Emperor isn't Elmal, he can't be. His experience with the god Elmal has taught him that much. So he starts digging, goes to Prax, sees the Sun Dome there and then the revelations really start. Because before this, there's no way that he's seen the Hill of Gold before and how it matches with the Guarding of the Stead and other parts of Elmal's mythic cycle. Elmal is Orlanth's thane, but so is Yelmalio by virtue of guarding the people even if he didn't submit to Orlanth. It matches, merges, and works together and when he gets back to Sartar he's go the solution to the issue, the magic to back it up, and most importantly, Truth. The truth that Yelm is not Elmal. Elmal is Yelmalio, another strong god but one that can coexist with Orlanth. 

Edited February 13 by Techpriest

[Joerg]

Deities merge at times - when it comes to sun deities, we have two cases where two different deities merged into one, along with their celestial bodies.

The first such case is documented in the Copper Plates of Yuthuppa - when Umath disrupts the Perfect Sky, the northeastern Planetary Son of Yelm rushes towards his progenitor and gets subsumed in it.

The second such case was the Bridling of Kargzant, a celestial event which resulted in Reladivus Kargzant and Antirius Lightfore being merged into a single object in the Night Sky. Prior to this, the Fragment of Yelm and the Rider/Horsefriend Wanderer had distinct and separate myths. Afterwards, Elmal and Yelmalio shared the wandering celestial body of Reladivus and no longer had any meaningful connection to the (no longer) Golden daytime Sky Dome, aka the Sun Dome.

[JonathanQuaife]

14 hours ago, Techpriest said:

The truth that Yelm is not Elmal. Elmal is Yelmalio, another strong god but one that can coexist with Orlanth. 

An entirely cogent and reasonable explanation, and more aligned to canon than my own. But also a bit too orthodox for my taste. I prefer a little more juice, a little more of the trickster mixed in. Explanations that leave room for doubt offer us an opportunity to bring something interesting to our games.

That said, I didn't share the above to convince anybody that it's "right", just to manifest a perspective that came to me when I first read KoS tweny-odd years ago!

[davecake]

My general take on this issue is that in general deities and the religions that follow them are quite different things and can diverge, that humans understand this poorly, that thinking of deities either as acting distinct entities with a ‘self’ with a unitary nature and well defined borders is how this misunderstanding generally (but not exclusively) manifests itself, and this is natural to the human psyche (and so is manifested by both players and Gloranthans). Divine revelation and spiritual experiences either don’t just add more confusion, or to the extent that they provide profound insight are not directly communicable (and hello Illumination). 
 

I think Elmal and Yelmalio, and others, as essentially the same divine entity is true. But I think RQG overstates the extent to which this means this is obviously taken as proving Yelmalio is more ‘true’ than Elmal (except by Monrogh for inhabitants of Sartar and Prax) and understates the historical importance of Elmal for a bunch of reasons. And their religions can differ a fair bit for historical reasons - Yelmalio is more a collection of historical influences than original religion at this point, and all of that is just as religiously valid to follow the Elmal rites (if not politically supported in Sartar). 
Many associated arguments about how important it is that Yelmalio remain incredibly ineffective as a general purpose warrior cult are just damn silly, and seem driven by RQ2 era nostalgia more than anything, but can have their fun side. 

[radmonger]

37 minutes ago, davecake said:

But I think RQG overstates the extent to which this means this is obviously taken as proving Yelmalio is more ‘true’ than Elmal

That's a consequence of saying Elmal is a subcult of Yelmalio, when it would be just as metaphysically valid to say Yelmalio is a subcult of Elmal.

Kind of like saying America to mean the USA, so America is one of the countries in America. Which does rather bring things back to the Monrogh Doctrine. Establishing the principle that all those different temples, even the ones we don't politically control, should share a name. And therefor are all rightly considered independent from the old Yelmic Imperial cult.

 

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, radmonger said:

That's a consequence of saying Elmal is a subcult of Yelmalio, when it would be just as metaphysically valid to say Yelmalio is a subcult of Elmal.

Which face of a deity is treated as the subcult and which face is treated as the main cult is a decision made by the cult, and doesn't really make a statement about the deity, only about how the worshippers and more importantly the cult leaders relate to the deity. So yes, equally valid from a God Learner perspective, without taking note of secondary characteristics like "Is Lightfore a child of Dendara?"
There are also different ways to pronounce the name of a deity. When English-speaking people mention "zooss" I need to do a mental translation into "tsoys" to understand Zeus and think of Dyaus Pater (Jupiter, or Jove, and no idea how the Romans came up with this declination).

And which deity owns the myth about tearing a dragon apart after capturing its breath in a bag of winds previously emptied onto the hapless critter? Is it Vadrus, Orlanth, or Barntar? Is Barntar just a face of Orlanth? And if so, is Orlanth being the father of Barntar meaningful in any way? Is Orlanth just an echo of Vadrus? Are there other dragonkillers using this (or a very similar) method to deal with the serpent, or with a river, or with a sea current? Is the Orlanth vs. Aroka myth about taming a wild river for irrigation to weather a drought, or is it just a rain-making myth?

 

6 hours ago, radmonger said:

Kind of like saying America to mean the USA, so America is one of the countries in America.

Pars pro toto, a common slightly poetic use of kennings in many languages.

Or a bad case of cultural appropriation of a term coined for the coastline of Brasil and Argentina by a German map-maker. No idea whether there are indigenous myths naming the continent in a consistent way. Few ancient cultures were familiar with the notion of a continent.

6 hours ago, radmonger said:

the Monrogh Doctrine. Establishing the principle that all those different temples, even the ones we don't politically control, should share a name. And therefor are all rightly considered independent from the old Yelmic Imperial cult.

"We never were part of the Evil Emperor, but we acknowledge the Life-Giving Sun."

Part of the Monrogh deal was to accept magic from the old Yelmic Imperial cult without subscribing to the Empire. Especially the Sunspear, a solar magic that was not available to the Dawn Age horse warlord emperors contemporary with Avivath (who possessed it).

There are different cults of the cold sun. The Golden Spearman is different from the Sunhorse Rider (Kargzant) or the Sunhorse itself (e.g. Galanin). There should be a Lightfore figure or two outside of Genertela. Is Vangono a Lightfore?

 

The business with the Sun Dome remains somewhat iffy, too. Elmal never stood for something like that, and neither Reladivus Kargzant. Antirius (the portion of Yelm rather than his offspring through sexual procreation) might have.

We have tales about Lightfore, the favourite of Dayzatar, fighting in the Gods War, even getting lost and getting rescued by Dayzatar.

 

[Nick Brooke]

10 hours ago, radmonger said:

Kind of like saying America to mean the USA, so America is one of the countries in America. Which does rather bring things back to the Monrogh Doctrine. Establishing the principle that all those different temples, even the ones we don't politically control, should share a name. And therefor are all rightly considered independent from the old Yelmic Imperial cult.

I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but I massively appreciate the pun.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

On 12/24/2019 at 3:38 AM, Jeff said:

Yelmalio was also victorious on many occasions. He defeated trolls, defeated Orlanth, and fought back against Chaos, 

I await the Solar book to learn of these victories by Yelmalio.

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I await the Solar book to learn of these victories by Yelmalio.

Photos - or it didn't happen 😄

[Shiningbrow]

19 hours ago, Joerg said:

There are different cults of the cold sun. The Golden Spearman is different from the Sunhorse Rider (Kargzant) or the Sunhorse itself (e.g. Galanin). There should be a Lightfore figure or two outside of Genertela. Is Vangono a Lightfore?

I'd like to see much more details on the differences in the variations in the cults books - and with the Little Son in particular. Not merely "In Sartar, there is a variant called Elmal... that is all, thank you"... but full differences. Such as, it appears the Elmali don't get the gift/geas thing that Yelmalions do... and I would expect a different array of spells (especially that "forbidden" spirit spells bit, which I don't think reflects Elmal. Another obvious would be giving them Firespear, but not having access to Sunspear. And, of course, the different cult skills).

[Mao]

I'm expecting Lightfore (official name presented as Yelmalio), Yelm and Lodril to have the best and most extensive writeups in the Solar book. It's the book I've wanted the most out of the RQ:G launch.

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

IMG, you might be a Yelmalion if:
- you’re from the western lowlands, the cities, and especially from among the Alda-churi
- you think the important thing about Many Suns is One Sun
- you are awed by the wealth of the Sun Dome and the way its masters can focus on higher matters while their thralls deal with the constant labor of food production and lifestyle maintenance
- you know that the Sun Dome Sun does not fuck, and it’s probably women’s fault for preferring bad boys
- you know that horses are a solar animal, but your place is with your feet planted on the earth, which you have been given dominion over
- you know that you are the future, the sun ascendant, an invincible phalanx of pikes working in unison, a hierarchy which leaves no room for tumult or doubt
- you think of yourself as a soldier and define yourself by duty to that role

Conversely, you might be an Elmali if:
- you’re from the mountain clans or from the eastern horse clans
- you think the important thing about One Sun is Many Suns
- you think that the Sun Rider is a practical god who expects you to put in a hard day’s work and who treasures gifts and honors over baroque iconography and hoarded wealth
- you know that the Sun Rider definitely fucks, and will happily talk about Elmal, Redaylda and Vinga taking comfort in each other during their long vigil in the Great Darkness (once the children have gone to bed, mind you)
- you know that the Sun Rider rides a damn horse (in more ways than one)
- you know that you are a defender of tradition, of your people, of the hope that even enemies can reconcile, and that like the Sun Rider you will refuse to turn your face away from what you know is right
- you think of yourself as a watchman and define yourself by duty to your people

It’s a High Church / Low Church split. The Yelmalions have the wealth, the glamour, the soldier’s credo, and the theocratic state bordering Sartar; the Elmali have tradition, stubbornness, deep roots in more rural communities, and an equestrian tradition. During the Lunar Occupation, the Yelmalion (day)star is on the rise, and the Sun Dome’s leadership is investing heavily in the belief that they are the future of the region. Afterwards, there will be an Elmali resurgence in Sartar, the Sun Dome will be scrambling to pivot to the changing power structures in the region, and the future is unwritten.

Of course, this is all a product of my own biases when approaching Glorantha: a lack of nostalgia for the classic Prax materials, interest in loyalist Sartarite play, interest in presenting a religious schism, a view of the Yelmalions of Sartar’s Sun Dome as a largely unsympathetic faction with multiple antagonist flags (fighting against a dynasty that helped establish their power in the region within living memory, a brutal faith-justified thrall plantation system, the establishing of a temple-based identity for adherents over clan and tribal concerns, and an undercurrent of misogyny pitted against traditional Ernalda worship), and the gut feeling that Elmali valuing traditional faith to the Loyal Thane are compelling character archetypes for clan-based games - and so shouldn’t be told “your faith is strictly, theologically, factually inferior to the Yelmalio cult.” Cast them as underdogs, but without making players feel like they’re idiots for chasing the archetype.