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MMan

Lay members: What and where are they?

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1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

I believe one of the ideas about Argrath is that he manages to tap into and organize this previously inefficiently used pool of magical capacity.

I think that every man having the Thunderbolt spell is quite efficient already.

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Personally, I feel that the number of rune levels from the Colymar tribe is greater than the number of rune levels in the Colymar tribe. While the magically advanced folk are valuable resources to the tribe (and clans), they are more likely to be subject to exile (during the Lunar administration), and to be head-hunted by foreign leaders (like Argrath, Samastina, Fazzur...)

A priest or lord in exile needs replacement, but will retain the rune level.

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3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

What was the reasoning for going with Hiording instead of the Red Cow?

@lordabdul TL;DR "I wanted to" 😛

There was no single specific reason. I weighted quite a number of options and considered different approaches for a while, and decided to go with Colymar tribe and use the Eleven Lights campaign more as a resource on how to model the world events into the campaign. Also I wanted to use the RQG GM screen adventure pack and the maps and stuff like that, as well as run some old Apple Lane stuff on the side, just for the sake of nostalgia, maybe drop in some Snakepipe also... ;)

I could have gone with just Colymar campaign, starting on year 1625 as per RQG default, but I felt there was not yet enough material about the near future of Hero Wars and how to model those in game. Also I want to play and live through some of the epic events before 1625...

In the end, I just felt this gives me more room bring in my own ideas, while having plenty of resources and material from Eleven Lights to lean to.

This is something I do quite often when GM'ing games: I just take in everything that is cool, drop everything that's not, and blend them into some super complex thingamabob that lives its own life :)

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3 hours ago, Brootse said:

I asked a similar question in the official rules thread:

@Brootse  Arrgh!! Now I'm confused again! :D

I feel I'm getting some mixed signals here...

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23 minutes ago, MMan said:

I could have gone with just Colymar campaign, starting on year 1625 as per RQG default, but I felt there was not yet enough material about the near future of Hero Wars and how to model those in game. Also I want to play and live through some of the epic events before 1625...

Yes that and the fact I want a lower level game,  is why I went 1613 and started with my classic material, At the moment the Red Cow material is peripheral to my campaign butI have every intention of using the it more and more as the years go along. I am starting in Torkani lands across the river and on the other side of the Lunars and Werewolves, from their clan and they are members of the Jonstown Confederation, so I am sure it will have impact.

Cheers

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On 8/26/2019 at 1:16 PM, MMan said:

As a simplified example: A community has 150 members and three gods: Orlanth, Ernalda and Yinkin.

  • Members 1-50 are initiated in Orlanth's cult, but they are also Lay Members of Ernalda and Yinkin.
  • Members 51-100 are initiated to Ernalda's cult, but they are also Lay Members of Orlanth and Yinkin.
  • Members 101-150 are initiated to Yinkin's cult, but they are also Lay Members of Orlanth and Ernalda.

Now in each cult there are 100 Lay Members and 50 initiates, but still all characters are Initiates in one of the cults.

I don't think it's NEARLY as symmetrical as that!  You have way too many Yinkini.

Assuming 75 women & 75 men, I'd presume most of the women follow Ernalda as their primary goddess... but a few would follow Vinga, Maran Gor, etc, and most of those women would likely be at least Lay Members of Ernalda.  Call it 65-70 "Ernaldan" primary.

Something similar would apply in parallel for the men and Orlanth... with some Uroxi, Barntar, Humakti, etc (who are "Lay Members" in Orlanth).

Given that you've called out Yinkin as especially important, I might expect an unusual number of them... maybe 15-20 (normally I'd think just 2-3 at most) Orlanthi as Yinkini-primary?  And while Yinkin feels kinda "guy" in vibe (very "Tomcat" in wanderlust (including wandering amours)), I don't think it's a Boys-Only Club, so let's steal a few Ernaldan's to be Yinkini, too.

Women - 60-65ish Ernalda, 5ish Yinkin, 5-10ish Misc Other.

Men - 45-50ish Orlanth, 15-20ish Yinkin, 5-10ish Misc Other.

 

I'm sure someone will be along to show me -- with citations -- how very wrong I am.

But they'll be Eurmali, so ignore them.

Edited by g33k
Hating the mobile-device editor!
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7 minutes ago, g33k said:

I don't think it's NEARLY as symmetrical as that!  You have way too many Yinkini.

Assuming 75 women & 75 men, I'd presume most of the women follow Ernalda as their primary goddess... but a few would follow Vinga, Maran Gor, etc, and most of those women would likely be at least Lay Members of Ernalda.  Call it 65-70 "Ernaldan" primary.

Something similar would apply in parallel for the men and Orlanth... with some Uroxi, Barntar, Humakti, etc (who are "Lay Members" in Orlanth).

Given that you've called out Yinkin as especially important, I might expect an unusual number of them... maybe 15-20 (normally I'd think just 2-3 at most) Orlanthi as Yinkini-primary?  And while Yinkin feels kinda "guy" in vibe (very "Tomcat" in wander, 15-20ishlust (including wandering amours)), I don't think it's a Boys-Only Club, so let's steal a few Ernaldan's to be Yinkini, too.

Women - 60-65ish Ernalda, 5ish Yinkin, 5-10ish Misc Other.

Men - 45-50ish Orlanth, 15-20ish Yinkin, 5-10ish Misc Other.

 

I'm sure someone will be along to show me -- with citations -- how very wrong I am.

But they'll be Eurmali, so ignore them.

or joerg...

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9 hours ago, g33k said:

I don't think it's NEARLY as symmetrical as that!  You have way too many Yinkini.

@g33k That example was just to underline how all npc could be initiates of a cult and how lay members would still make the majority of each cult's membership. It wasn't meant to be "realistic" distribution of people in each cult, but easy numbers to follow and to underline the reasoning.

Edited by MMan
corrected typos

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14 hours ago, MMan said:

@Brootse  Arrgh!! Now I'm confused again! :D

I feel I'm getting some mixed signals here...

 

10 hours ago, creativehum said:

I feel your pain.

At some point you just start to accept that in Glorantha and RuneQuest there are conflicting ideas that are true at the same time while they can't both be true at the same time. When you reach that point you are Enlightened.

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9 hours ago, MMan said:

@g33k That example was just to underline how all npc could be initiates of a cult and how lay members would still make the majority of each cult's membership. It wasn't meant to be "realistic" distribution of people in each cult, but easy numbers to follow and to underline the reasoning.

OK; yeah, as an demo of that principle I think it works!

 

But I'll also point out a functional difference.  Orlanth & Ernalda get at least "Lay Membership" out of almost everyone in their respective cultures, but the other deities don't so much.  Nobody wants to show up as That Guy (or That Gal) who slights Orlanth on his holiest days, nor Ernalda on hers.  The other deities don't get that level of atterntion.

Lets look at Yinkin.  Lay membership will be common in folk who are hunters, scouts, and the like.  Anybody who finds themselves in a wandering, rootless lifestyle might seek out Yinkin's blessings, even if they plan to settle down in a season or two (and maintain Lay Membership thereafter, in thanks).  Someone engaging in multiple, temporary, uncommitted sexual relationships might be a lay member.  Any Orlanthi with the Identify Scent rune-spell is likely a Lay Member of Yinkin.  Odayla and Foundchild, and other hunting-central cults might mutually be one anothers' Lay Members, particularly where their "core" territories abut (e.g. Foundchild/Yinkin anywhere near the Prax/Sartar border).  Etc etc etc.

Taken collectively, ALL these sources of Lay Membership don't make up as much as Orlanth or Ernalda get, but are a loose and far-reaching web.  Priests of Yinkin travel widely because they're pursuing Yinkini ideals... but it also lets them touch base with more of Yinkin's followers!

 

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On 8/26/2019 at 2:58 PM, MMan said:

 Based on the numbers and terms, I assume that HQ Initiate == RQG Initiate, and HQ Devotee == RQG Rune Priest / Lord / God Talker.

One question: is that assumption correct? I don’t remember why, but I thought that HQ Initiate was RQG lay member, and HQ Devotee was RQG Initiate.

Thanks.

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6 hours ago, Rojo said:

One question: is that assumption correct?

I think it is -- in the HQG book, "devotees" are the ones that receive gifts and geases from their deity (for instance, Humakt devotees, HQG p166). Sounds like Rune Priest/Lord/God Talker to me.

Edited by lordabdul

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On 9/7/2018 at 3:42 PM, David Scott said:

As a spinoff this information is important. Lay membership is based the the current GoG draft. @Ian Cooper does this look right?

Ernalda  — 336 initiates, 6 devotees plus most adults as lay members  (830 adults total) - Minor Temple.

Orlanth — 221 initiates, 4 devotees plus at least most of the men as lay members (roughly 415) - Minor Temple

Barntar  — 80 initiates - worshipped as part Orlanth Thunderous, shrine in temple.

Seven Mothers  60 initiates. Shrine.

Heler — 40 initiates, 1 devotee, worshipped as part of Orlanth Thunderous, shrine in temple.

Yinkin  — 25 initiates

Odayla — 20 initiates, 1 devotee

Engizi the Skyriver Titan ws — 20 initiates

Vinga — 15 initiates, worshipped as part Orlanth Adventurous, shrine in temple.

Issaries hs — 8 initiates

Humakt ty — 5 initiates, 1 devotee

In another thread Ian Cooper stated that this is correct, and in the same thread it’s clear that the assumption is correct too. So, my memory was wrong (which is not strange at all).

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In case it's useful, I looked at the same issue in my game and decided that, as above, almost all adults will be initiates of a cult and that the difference in heroes and PCs comes from the character history, bonus points in runes and personal skill choices. 

I made up a generic Heortling farmer and herder without those bonuses and with just one (useful) rune spell. It's worked well so far.

Heortling Farmer, initiate of Orlanth - https://www.cradleofheroes.net/view_character/2112

Heortling Herder, initiate of Ernalda - https://www.cradleofheroes.net/view_character/2113

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On a somewhat related tangent:

How does the idea of Lay Membership apply to the Humakti?  I was always under the impression that if you were a devotee of Humakt you wouldn't be associated with any other cult due to the idea of the Humakti being separate and cutting off all other ties.  Is that not correct? 

Do the main cults of Humakt even really need Lay Members?  They always struck me as being quite secretive.  How much "open" worship does Humakt actually get? 

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5 minutes ago, Jolt said:

How does the idea of Lay Membership apply to the Humakti?  I was always under the impression that if you were a devotee of Humakt you wouldn't be associated with any other cult due to the idea of the Humakti being separate and cutting off all other ties.  Is that not correct? 

Do the main cults of Humakt even really need Lay Members?  They always struck me as being quite secretive.  How much "open" worship does Humakt actually get? 

I could easily imagine a less strict Humakti mercenary company settling for Lay Membership for its soldiers. A quick introductory course, and then off into battle you go. Not everyone has to be a Grim Servant o' Death, we need auxiliaries too.

I'd say you only have to Sever at Initiation.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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12 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'd say you only have to Sever at Initiation.

I would say that the severance IS the initiation.

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5 minutes ago, Kloster said:

I would say that the severance IS the initiation.

I'd only say part of it. You may have to do a lot of other things, like emulating Humakt in the Fighting Pit (as this is Humakt's actual initiation).

Edited by Akhôrahil
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And I suppose that near Delecti’s territories there would be a greater number or lay members than in other parts of Sartar, for example.

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A Lay Member is a casual member. You want to go to a temple on a Holy Day, but they won't let you in, so you drop the cult a few coins and get a badge to get in. You want to go to the Market but they won't trade with you, so you become a Lay member to be able to trade. That kind of thing.

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On 8/30/2019 at 6:43 PM, soltakss said:

A Lay Member is a casual member. You want to go to a temple on a Holy Day, but they won't let you in, so you drop the cult a few coins and get a badge to get in. You want to go to the Market but they won't trade with you, so you become a Lay member to be able to trade. That kind of thing.

Yep. Most people are lay members of at least one cult, probably more. The boundary between lay member and associate member is deliberately fuzzy (as it is in Glorantha).

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9 hours ago, Jeff said:

The boundary between lay member and associate member is deliberately fuzzy

You become associate member by volunteering to put up lots of flyers around the clan's lands, bringing your famous "dried boar and potatoes" salad to all the cult's potlucks, and singing in the cult's choir for all the Holy Day special concerts.

Edited by lordabdul
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