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Qizilbashwoman

Entekosiad and the Five Goddesses

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Hello,

I did google a little around and didn't find much so I figured I'd actually make a post.

I'm sorting through the Entekosiad, which is of course a mess and never can be truly sorted, but I wondered if anyone had a thought about the five Deneronae - the five ruling goddesses. The text says there are five, and there was speculation and input online about some of them.

  • Benbeng "Bell"
  • Alk "Green"
  • Beseda "Plenty"
  • Addi "Stick"
  • Karanda "Striped"

It's pretty clear that Addi is Entekos Dendara, Valare's beloved goddess, who is a form of Rufelza. (That's one of the points of the entire book.)

Alk is Orogeria-Ulurda, as you like, still has that name. Beseda is likely Oria.

The last two are questionable.

I've seen speculation that Benbeng is Naveria, but that seems anachronistic?

The text says Karanda is Fa Elsor, which is a mess. In Fa Elsor and the Serpent she is the "appropriately-aged woman for sex"; her four sisters Ariria, Provaria, Eth Eria, and Koveria come to confront Ursturburn, but Arirae is a child (the region of Arir, where people are naked and eat raw fish, likely isn't an accident), Provaria is a virgin, Eth Eria is already a mother, and Koveria is an old woman, so it's up to Fa Elsor to bang the snake. Gods Wall II-2-5.

So Karanda Fa Elsor ... is Entekos (God's Wall II-1)...

Any ideas?

Also, anything else you want to discuss about this gnomic text?

Edited by Qizilbashwoman

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35 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

It's pretty clear that Addi is Entekos Dendara, Valare's beloved goddess, who is a form of Rufelza. (That's one of the points of the entire book.)

I thought Valare  ultimately discovered the exact opposite :

"Conclusion Entekos is Innocence, but she is not our Red Goddess"

P57 The Entekosiad

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One of the delights of the Entekosiad for me is the stylistic difference from FS and GRoY. Valare is a mystic who lacks the focus and the tools required to be a systematic theologian or reconstructive historian. Instead she has the inclusive genius of the experiential quester. . I don't think it is a mess, but rather that it is one of Greg's greatest works. 

However, this does mean that the identities and parallels are both difficult and bounded by the time and context of the 'origin' of the story. 

Happy hunting 😇

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I'm pretty sure Greg dropped a heavy hint some years that they were related to the Runes (given that's there's five, means they are elemental).  But I never made it quite work.

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1 hour ago, Byll said:

I thought Valare  ultimately discovered the exact opposite :

"Conclusion Entekos is Innocence, but she is not our Red Goddess"

P57 The Entekosiad

Oh no, that's a statement refuting the opposite of what I said. Valare's heresy was that Entekos encompassed the Red Goddess, for which she got a sharp rap on the nose by Teelo. I'm saying the opposite: that she's a form of the Red Goddess, which is after all the basic theology of the Lunar Way. There are seven goddesses who preceded the Red Goddess and are her alternate... masks? Gerra, Lesilla, Natha, Rashorana, Ulurda, Verithurusa, and Zaytenera. As the Entokosiad comments at the end in What Valare Learned, "The Dendara Part of Rufelza, the Red Goddess, is Gerra, the Goddess of Suffering."

1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

One of the delights of the Entekosiad for me is the stylistic difference from FS and GRoY. Valare is a mystic who lacks the focus and the tools required to be a systematic theologian or reconstructive historian. Instead she has the inclusive genius of the experiential quester. . I don't think it is a mess, but rather that it is one of Greg's greatest works. 

Oh I just meant that it is messy as in "it is never going to be sorted out methodically", not "it is senseless and useless in piles".

34 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I'm pretty sure Greg dropped a heavy hint some years that they were related to the Runes (given that's there's five, means they are elemental).  But I never made it quite work.

  • Benbeng "Bell" Fire
  • Alk "Green" Darkness
  • Beseda "Plenty" Earth
  • Addi "Stick" Air
  • Karanda "Striped" ... Water?

Five Sisters Invoked is my main inspiration for Benbeng, the bell, the fire starter. Perhaps she was White Sun. Alk closes the ceremony, bringing in the darkness. I have no idea who else Karanda could be than Dendara, I'm stumped. Certainly she's the Water Bride.

Maybe there were only four goddesses and they distinguished Entekos from the Water Bride Dendara because the White Sun hadn't yet been overthrown?

Edited by Qizilbashwoman
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57 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Oh no, that's a statement refuting the opposite of what I said. Valare's heresy was that Entekos encompassed the Red Goddess, for which she got a sharp rap on the nose by Teelo. I'm saying the opposite: that she's a form of the Red Goddess, which is after all the basic theology of the Lunar Way. There are seven goddesses who preceded the Red Goddess and are her alternate... masks? Gerra, Lesilla, Natha, Rashorana, Ulurda, Verithurusa, and Zaytenera. As the Entokosiad comments at the end in What Valare Learned, "The Dendara Part of Rufelza, the Red Goddess, is Gerra, the Goddess of Suffering."

That was a thought that I had too after reading the Entekosiad. Admittedly, I've read it only once thoroughly and not really studied it more, but I also read something like that into it...

Edited by Grievous

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3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

 I'm saying the opposite: that she's a form of the Red Goddess, which is after all the basic theology of the Lunar Way. 

So it's a "she is me, but I am not her" thing? Ok, got it.

Edited by PhilHibbs
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It's possible that the elemental organization in the Entekosiad does not specifically align with the "orthodox"  elemental scheme, we've seen in this before in Ralios, where Ehilm and Lodik were both present in the pantheon as equals and effectively separate elements.

But, we do have have 5 goddesses, so we can't trick around by just adding one alternative, we would have to remove one. And removing the youngest, Air (which imho would be the easiest thing to do), isn't really an option considering Addi-Entekos as the goddess of airs.

Sooo... just spitballing here... could Benbeng be some form of Uleria?

EDIT: "5" goddesses.

Edited by Sir_Godspeed

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5 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

It's possible that the elemental organization in the Entekosiad does not specifically align with the "orthodox"  elemental scheme, we've seen in this before in Ralios, where Ehilm and Lodik were both present in the pantheon as equals and effectively separate elements.

But, we do have have goddesses, so we can't trick around by just adding one alternative, we would have to remove one. And removing the youngest, Air (which imho would be the easiest thing to do), isn't really an option considering Addi-Entekos as the goddess of airs.

Sooo... just spitballing here... could Benbeng be some form of Uleria?

The problem isn't AFAIK Nav Eria. Well, I mean, that's not the principle issue. Was Nav Eria appropriate? IDK, but by the time the text is around the author says explicitly the gods have changed in the Council from the Green Age. Nav Eria happened, Daxdarius happened.

Addi is the shaman, as well. We're in an animist society and she must also be the Person rune as well as Air; she flies literally and figuratively.

But the real issue that Air is Entekos and Karanda/Fa Elsor is ... well, when we fill in the blanks, she's Dendera. Her four sisters are Ariria, Provaria, Eth Eria, and Koveria, Gods Wall II-2-5 (Plentonius names them Ariria, Naveria, Lesilla and Koveria). Who is Gods Wall II-1? Dendera.

I don't know who else she could be. Is there a different goddess who could have the title Dendera?

"The Waters of Grandmother Fa Elsor" is discussed in the text, and her children are the Poral, "the image of their father", so Ursturdurm, Her husband, is the Poralister.

Could Dendera "the Virtuous" be a title for Uleria? In the before time, the first mother. Kassa birthed herself as Ul Eria. It'd explain why she's blue... if she married the Poralister and is the Water Wife, the First Mother, who bore Deneg Eria and the Porals, maybe here we have Dendera as the title for a different goddess. I can see no other way around it.

Addi is Air. Unless she's masking as the Water Wife, which... I mean, that happens in Solar Mythology, but it's awkward. Yelm's serpent is a water serpent? It's odd.

Edited by Qizilbashwoman
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2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Is there a different goddess who could have the title Dendera?

Ernalda is certainly one.

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

It'd explain why she's blue... if she married the Poralister and is the Water Wife, the First Mother, who bore Deneg Eria and the Porals, maybe here we have Dendera as the title for a different goddess.

That seems quite feasible.

 

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22 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Ernalda is certainly one.

Ernalda is Earth, though: really firmly Earth. If Ernalda shows up, she's the triple goddess that shows up, Voria-Ernalda-Esrola, who here is the daughter of Ul Eria, daughter of Gata (under several other names, but "primeval earth"). The daughter is Deneg Eria, the first child, who is identified with Voria.

Ul Eria (as Eth Elsor)'s other children are the Aro Turru, the "Log Walkers", who might be the sons of Lodril? Sort of unclear.

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It's made a bit more wonky by how Pelorian Oria and Dendera seem to have the same relationship to each others as Esrola and Ernalda (the physical, bountiful earth and the "earth" as expressed through familial bonds, filial piety, and crafts like weaving, etc.).

So while it's tempting to try and shift Addi-Entekos around by referencing her connection to Dendara-the-Wife-of-Yelm - as Valare herself does - it's not super-helpful ALL the time, given Addi-Entekos' Air associations, etc.

So in other words, as Qizilbash points out, we may be dealing with even more "Dendaras" than these two.... or however many there are.

There's also the distinct possibility that not every "generation" (or sub-gradient) of goddess in the Entekosiad is directly translateable to other pantheons, much like not every subgradient of Malkion or the Pelorian God (Ezelveztay, Vezkarvez, etc.) is necessarily just another name for a common deity. Their "theologies"/myths may require steps which do not exist elsewhere, or they may skip steps that others make (sort of how the Heortlings do not have/entirely ignore the Yelm-Murharzam distinction and just give it a blank term of "The Emperor", and likewise some Dara Happan myths seem to conflate Umath and Orlanth, and in other aspects list different names for Orlanth as entirely different entities).

So direct analogues aren't always doable.

Edited by Sir_Godspeed

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7 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

It's made a bit more wonky by how Pelorian Oria and Dendera seem to have the same relationship to each others as Esrola and Ernalda (the physical, bountiful earth and the "earth" as expressed through familial bonds, filial piety, and crafts like weaving, etc.).

Ernalda is the Great Earth with Orlanth: they appear in Dara Happa as Erlanda and Erlandus, the Rebel Gods. I don't know if they are in the Entekosiad. There's a lot of Bad Gods and I'm not really sorting out who is who.

I think Esrola and Oria are similar, as they are the mothers of the grains and the animals and the peoples.

My Ul Eria idea is shot somewhat as Oria/Besed Eria is the wife of Lodril/Turos.

Let's review before moving onto questions about Bad Gods

  • Benbeng "Bell" Fire - still unsure, but a fire god. Placeholding Nav Eria from the Naverian creation myth, because she's explicitly a Sky god and a Painter.
  • Alk "Green" Darkness - yep, she's still named Alk
  • Beseda "Plenty" Earth - Oria, I'm fine with this, it's her name
  • Addi "Stick" Air - yep
  • Karanda "Striped" ... Water? - okay, the Virtuous One, but aren't they all? this Virtuous One is a mother.

Could be Ul Eria, grandmother of Addi-Entekos, Water Wife; maybe the serpent is the one later slain by Orlanth that he's holding in every illustration and the goddess is Ernalda, the other Virtuous Wife of Yelm?

HOKÉ

Let's discuss bad gods. I don't know who basically any of them are. Are any of them, like, identifiable? Gata's first birth includes Kor Danaru Sor and his Salleri. Then there's Gan Estoro/Yar Gan. I'm really lost about these guys. I know who the explicitly Underworld gods are, but ... are any of these gods Tolat the Naughtymaker? (I think he might be Clashing Metal Scream and he's the Red God of War is Invented in the Second Error that caused the Great Darkness.) Yar Gan was eventually upcycled into a harvest deity, so he's likely a cranky Water deity who got ganked. Ka Charal is pretty obviously Aether Primolt. I've heard tell Bisos is about Chaos but I don't specifically see it.

I'm really interested to hear what people say because I've thought very little about the Bad Gods.

 

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1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Ernalda is the Great Earth with Orlanth: they appear in Dara Happa as Erlanda and Erlandus, the Rebel Gods.

Sorry for not following the trail you're making with the Bad Gods, I don't have the Entekosiad on me right now. However, I thought I'd just like to touch on this one: I don't think it's necessary to think of Erlanda and Erlandus as being the entirety of Storm and Great Earth - rather they are condemnations of the Vingkotling versions of those ideas. They're emphasizing the overt sexuality of these two, and "expelling" it, as foreign, inferior entities.

I still believe that Dendara is effectively the Pelorian version of Ernalda, but with the sexual promiscuity (/freedom, agency) firmly removed and/or reined in, as befits the wife of Yelm. Her agricultural associations are also largely removed, as befits a noble lady (then again the Heortlings kinda distance Ernalda from agriculture as well through the Most, Much, Least story)  but she is still the Wife, still the Mother, Still the Household Matron and still the Weaver. As in the "Least" section where Ernalda is given the immaterial gifts of the Earth from retiring Asrelia, Dendara also seems to rule over aspects of community togetherness, filial/sororal piety, domestic calm/positivity, and the organization of resources in there. 

Of course, Heortlings will claim that Orlanth ran away with the Great Goddess - which Solar Pelorians, I'm sure, will discount as barbaric ramblings. How could she have run away, she never left the good fertile valleys of her husband's empire! Checkmate atheists Heortlings.

It's like how Heortlings "expelled" the cruel, tyrannical Sun by emphasizing his ruler nature over everything else, and instead focusing on their own, totally rad Elmal Sun. What, the Dara Happans claim that Elmal is just another name for the Cold Sun, who was a fractured and lesser sun of the Storm Age and Darkness? Pfffsshht, yeah, sure buddy.

The only other alternative I can think of is that Pelorian Solar mythology divides the roles of the godesses a bit different, with Oria being given the powers of *both* the More and the Least (physical and immaterial) gifts of the Earth. In effect, Oria's cult would cover both the services that the Heortling cults of Ernalda and Esrola do, and that the Solar hegemony in Peloria managed to connect themselves to the goddesses of the land (as it seems every male-dominated culture has to do to survive) through Lodril rather than Yelm. But that leaves Dendara left as this - in my opinion - kind of anemic there-for-the-sake-of-being-there goddess, which I just find a bit... boring.

But yeah, this does make the connection between Dendara-Wife-of-Yelm and Entekos of the Still Air even weirder.

A bit of a sidetrack, anyhow.

EDIT: Yar Gan is associated with the Pelandan/Oronini Blues, isn't he? And the Logicians? Sounds like some kind of theism-integrated western sorcerer entity. May or may not be connected to the Sea (they are interconnected around Oronin and the Sweet Sea).

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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5 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Yar Gan is associated with the Pelandan/Oronini Blues, isn't he?

Yes, YarGan is associated with the Sweet Sea and Castle Blue.

He can be found in the Guide, p.317 "Kendesos (large city): This city on the upper Oronin River was once ruled by the cruel YarGan the Blue King and his Blue People. His sorcery prevented the High Gods from helping their people, until he was finally killed and the Blue People driven beneath the waters by Jernotius, Daxdarius, and Bisos."

And in the Glorantha Sourcebook, p.159 "From 0/25 (1245) to 0/26 (1246), a fierce, magical war raged about Castle Blue in which combatants either gained immortality or their names were lost forever. The Goddess mustered a wide array of powers led by her Scarlet Warlord (also known as Doskalos the Sword in the Eye) to confront the Old Gods, including the Crimson Bat and her daughter Deneskerva. Many other gods became active and engaged. Orlanth claimed the Goddess was evil, the Warlord of Charg said it was his duty to fight Chaos, and even the
blue men worshipping YarGan came up from underneath the Sweet Sea to fight.
The fighting was fierce, terrible, and glorious. The gods and goddesses had great difficulty keeping their people out of foreign hells and the fabric of the world changed in the fighting."

 

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7 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Benbeng "Bell" Fire - still unsure, but a fire god.

I think she connects with JedaBenben (p.7) who is the Hearth goddess, and she both makes and keeps the fire burning there. Note similarity of name. Also the footnote:  JedaBenben. When asked, said to mean "She is the goddess who dances with bells. She delights in the chimes of metal, but comes to the sounds of the clay bells."

Fire appears correct.

7 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Alk "Green" Darkness - yep, she's still named Alk

Except she seems to connect more with the "Wild" than necessarily Darkness.  The daughters of Alk included AronBaka, our beloved Tree Mother, and also of EstBratha.

"AronBaka. Even without asking, I knew this to be the equivalent of our own ErenBaya [Gods Wall #III-22]"
"EstBratha. She was said to be "Our enfolding Mother, who shields us from harm." [Other important daughters include Orogeria and Esus.]"

Basically the mother of Wilderness/Forests and Hunting.

As for Karanda, her connection seems to be with the animal mothers.  Perhaps Mikyh, the dragon mother of many of the beast folk.

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1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Basically the mother of Wilderness/Forests and Hunting.

The only reason I was connecting her to Darkness was the Five Sisters Invoked, which starts with Addi - said to be a gift of Tree Mother - and passes through to Fire, who turns to Earth as Jeda BenBen's bells are smashed and Beseda (Oria) enters, then libations (mentioned elsewhere in the text: "Agraketa, the sacred basket, went around, and a council was convened at Beredenbos to discuss the emergency. The Five Gods came forth among the women, the staff and drum were passed, and the sweet and bitter waters drunk. At last the gods gave their advice."), and finally:

Quote

Alk is then called to attend, and from all of Nature which is left she comes in among us from the outside. It is dark when these proceedings are done, except for the burning flower, and whatever deities from Above choose to view.

I saw a progression here from Air > Fire > Earth > Water > Darkness

As for Yar Gan, he's supposed to be the sorceror's god, a Malkioni thing. Vadeli, *shakes fist!.

But I always view that with deep suspicion. Malkioni don't have gods, first of all, at least not in this era. And while I do know Westerners bred with merfolk, this still feels like something else than the Malkioni; it feels like Carmanian influence reading into "they were WITCHES with strange magic!"

Yar Gan, after all, was slain by Bisos and turned into another god, much like Heler was transmuted into an Air-Water hybrid. I'm pretty sure sorcerers don't do that.

I'd like to add that the fight between the two was the most hilariously anime moment, a really surreal thing to read in this book. Yar Gan standing there, staring at the bull men, confused, turning around to see Bisos' corpse rising back up and saying, "This is the end, the stars crash down," and getting chunked.

Edited by Qizilbashwoman

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Quote

As for Yar Gan, he's supposed to be the sorceror's god, a Malkioni thing. Vadeli, *shakes fist!.

Gan appears to be part of "Ganesatarus", the "separate(d) one".

The Vadeli demanded human sacrifice when they conquered coastal Pamaltela after the Opening. We know from the Tadeniti War that they had a magic to separate the energy from the body, and it is possible that the process of human sacrifice and accompanying propitiating worship served to power their magics.

Quote

But I always view that with deep suspicion. Malkioni don't have gods, first of all, at least not in this era.

Many of them are demigods, or at most third generation offspring of deities.

Quote

And while I do know Westerners bred with merfolk, this still feels like something else than the Malkioni; it feels like Carmanian influence reading into "they were WITCHES with strange magic!"

The earliest Malkioni were very much a dickfest with hardly any female among them. They made up for that by wedding or at least bedding nymphs of various kinds - Tilntae love nymphs, Niiad sea demigoddesses, Land goddesses and whatever else female manifestations in sufficiently human appearance came forth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymph for greek names of what you can think of). With the possible exception of Aldryami (i.e. dryads). It wouldn't have been much different if they had been a bunch of Satyrs discovering civilisation in its various aspects.

Malkion himself set the pattern. We know of at least three wives - Phlia the Tilnta mother of Talar, Zzabur and Horal (and the two named daughters of Malkion, Menena and Eule), Kala the land goddess and mother of Drona(r), and a cousin of his mother who mothered Waertag. Then there are the other five ancestors of the six tribes of Danmalastan.

If any of these tribal leaders acted as deities, the candidates would be Waertag, Tadenit, Vadel (rather than his father Vimorn), and Kachast. Of these, Kachast (who is most likely in the region) would be the least prone to cruelty.

Quote

Yar Gan, after all, was slain by Bisos and turned into another god, much like Heler was transmuted into an Air-Water hybrid. I'm pretty sure sorcerers don't do that.

No, that wasn't YarGan, but his head worshiper, King Blue.

 

Edited by Joerg
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13 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I think he might be Clashing Metal Scream

I pretty much assumed that CMS was Shargash, yeah. 

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

As for Yar Gan, he's supposed to be the sorceror's god, a Malkioni thing. Vadeli, *shakes fist!.

I tend to think of him as Malkioni, but not Vadeli. Probably from that river tribe of Waertagi who came up the Janube. The Waertagi, of course, are entirely happy to combine sorcery with worship of Water deities (and crossbreeding with water entities), so we don't have to keep debating between sorcery and Water connections - obviously, both. And they can get pretty creepy themselves. 

I don't really get Bisos as just a name for Storm Bull, though - Bisos seems much more a fertility deity first, warrior god second. 

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Yar Gan.... worshipped (Gan)Estoro aka Ganesatarus?

One deity worshipping another, higher deity is very Gloranthan - but perhaps more importantly, if Ganesatarus is associated with Lies and Darkness, what does this mean for YarGan?

And is he separate from the Blue King? I though they were the same.

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The invasion of YarGan has him worshiping Estoro. (p.45)

And yes, the text on p.46 says that YarGan was killed by the bull.

The Bisos texts however make a distinction between the god YarGan (p.67) and the king of the people under the lake, ErvOronius (p.68), who is overcome by Bisos. But (my bad) in battle, at Yartos, and not in single combat.

This (and subsequent good things happening to the people formerly ruled by ErvOronius) provoked an attack of the (differently, corpse) blue people "under the water", the DediZoraRu, under their leader IvinZoraRu. But then the footnote equals IvinZoraRu with YarGan again.

I have always read this "Under the Water" as "Inside Castle Blue".

 

So IvinZoraRu was an avatar or so of YarGanEstoro. The story of IdoJartos (p.56) has this son of Turos and Oria slay the dark god in the Black Mountain at the (temporary) loss of his own life, too, but due to his knowledge of the path into the Underworld, he was able to return, and afterwards act as the psychopomp.
 

I think it might be useful to investigate Estoro/GanEstoro/Ganesatarus (and by implication in Fortunate Succession's Carmanian Sources Idovanus) in this context. For some reason, Valare never questions Estoro's appearance in the stories.

 

There's also the possible parallel between Makan/Estoro and Idovanus/Irensavel to consider, given Syranthir's opposition to Arimadalla.

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

There's also the possible parallel between Makan/Estoro and Idovanus/Irensavel to consider, given Syranthir's opposition to Arimadalla.

Good catch.


I was thinking that GanEstoro might be associated with the Greater Darkness of the Gods War (either as Chaos or Darkness) - but I'm not sure how these things line up chronologically (as mentioned above, I sadly don't have the text on me - but all of this appears to be before the Daxdarian age, so I guess it's during the Storm Age sometime).

I guess the association with "Lies" fits fairly well with how a lot of theistic societies view sorcery/materialism. Sorcerers lie about how the universe works and perverse the faithful with their atheist/dystheist ideas, after all.
 

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6 hours ago, davecake said:

I don't really get Bisos as just a name for Storm Bull, though - Bisos seems much more a fertility deity first, warrior god second.

Bisos isn't Storm Bull, he's the Tawari hsunchen god. He's quite the wrecker, though, so who knows? Maybe he's also got the anti-Chaos rune.

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6 hours ago, davecake said:

I don't really get Bisos as just a name for Storm Bull, though - Bisos seems much more a fertility deity first, warrior god second. 

Bisos is the son of the bull god KevTavar, and of the cow mother Esus. So if anything he's more like Waha. (For sufficiently wide standards of "like")

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