The new Malleus Monstrorum: some Work-in-Progress

[g33k]

3 minutes ago, midwinter said:

But the colour blue doesn't have a $1 billion price tag. It also doesn't require any artistic skill.

But as a matter of personal taste and preference, "blue" is equally valid with "Mona Lisa" (or de Kooning's "Interchange," or the clay bowl my daughter made in school...) .

None of them is more valid than any other, as a matter of taste or preference.

The ONLY thing that a high valuation means, is that there are people with crazy amounts of money, who put that valuation onto those particular artworks.

 

[g33k]

27 minutes ago, midwinter said:

... It also doesn't require any artistic skill. Painting like da Vinci does. As does playing Paganini's Caprice no. 24.

There's technical skill, and then there is artistic "merit."  Having good technique doesn't necessarily make for great art.  There's some real hack stuff, formulaic but technically proficient. 

If you've seen Amadeus, there's a wonderful scene where Salieri has composed a "welcome" piece for Mozart's arrival.  It's a nice piece of music, very intricate and pretty.  After Salieri performs it for Mozart, the wunderkind sits down (having just heard the piece for the first time in his life) and performs IIRC a series of variations of Salieri's theme... each one of them BETTER than Salieri's had been.

Arguably, some "great" art (e.g. Pollock's "drip paintings") have minimal technique or skill.  Blue Poles is estimated to be worth $350M, for example.

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by g33k

[Bill the barbarian]

18 hours ago, midwinter said:

But he's entitled to his opinion, just like you are. And your hypothesis has a slight tin foil shimmer about it. A small clique of "contrarians" create accounts and post negative stuff about CoC's cover art? A person must be blind if he hasn't noticed that many covers have had a cartoony feel about them. Or a company man, a yes man. Do you ever dislike anything Chaosium does, klecser?

This is a personal attack on a contributor to these forums, uncool!

[MOB]

Frank Belknap Long's Hounds of Tindalos are said to inhabit the 'angles' of time, and able to physically manifest through angles and corners. Another fab work-in-progress from the MALLEUS MONSTRORUM. Art by Loïc Muzy.

Edited December 16, 2019 by MOB

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, midwinter said:

No, I defended a first time poster who got a snarky reply from a forum senior. THAT is not cool. Your post on the other hand is just made to stir the pot and the timing is quite off. You probably want me to get some warning for defending a first time poster, isnt that so? I guess this forum is some safe space or cult for senior members/yes-men and Chaosium employees.

Just knock it off. You are welcome to make your opinions about art or tone or whatever. Many people disagree with your aesthetics but that's fine. However,  you are also accusing others of being company yes men and the like. So knock that off now. 

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, midwinter said:

Why didn't you arrive in the thread with your warnings when a first time poster was met with a snarky remark about creating his account just to comment in this thread? And where do you get the "many" people who disagree with my aesthetics from? A handful of people on this forum?

I have a serious question about the condescending tone of Chaosium employees. Has it always been this way? Salty, a bit aggressive, like you're all a bunch of tough hombres. You certainly can't take critique very well. Do you ever talk about how to approach people who put food on your table? Percipient customer care? Or is it all about the sales figures of the Starter box? Or where to hang that picture of the mass murderers Lenin and Stalin that you had in the actual play on your official Youtube channel? They might be cool in Australia, but to a Swede with a Finnish mom who fled WW2 and who had family members killed fighting communist scum it isn't as sexy. I mean, what were you thinking? 

There is a vast difference between the Chaosium people here and the Swedes at Eloso that are in the midst of making the Swedish version of CoC. Hell, there's a vast difference between this forum and the English Facebook group. Why is that?

I bet trigger fingers twitch in anticipation of yet another ban. The Devil finds work for idle hands.

Have whatever questions or concerns you want, but phrase them in a civilised manner. A degree of snark is fine with me but you manage to be single-handedly responsible for just about every complaint to moderators we get. As far as I can tell, it is your dickish tone and attitude, not the content of your speech, that gets the bulk of the complaints. So watch the tone and the attitude, or take a time out from here.

[klecser]

A "yes man" agrees with whatever someone else does, always. I don't meet that definition. If one were to read my comments, what they reveal (in my opinion) is a desire for people's arguments to be grounded in a logical framework and supporting new players to the community.

"There shouldn't be art in these books because quality Keeping shouldn't use art" is not a logical argument and it doesn't nurture or invite new players to the hobby. It's a bit asinine to have your first post be a lecture to experienced publishers and Keepers of "how to do it right." Can you imagine someone walking into a restaurant, having never shown up there before, immediately giving the chefs bad tips on how to chef? It's not cool. We don't do it IRL. We shouldn't do it on forums.

Just like "art isn't subjective" isn't a logical argument. Art is subjective. I challenge you to talk to any number of professors of art and honestly expect them to agree that "art isn't subjective." I'd love to watch those conversations, honestly.

Chaosium has been making a lot of sound business decisions as of late. They understand their markets. And I happen to respect a lot of the decisions they've made. Because I respect excellence. And inviting lots of people, no matter their art perspective, to the table is a good thing. Breadth of art style is a good business practice. That doesn't make me a "yes man." I think we have several people determined to "gotcha" Chaosium and their decisions at every turn.

I have criticisms too, but just stating my criticisms publically isn't a productive enterprise, especially for a recreational activity. I don't write, draw, or edit for Chaosium. I'm not so naive as to think that me coming to an online forum and complaining is going to get Chaosium to change their art commissioning procedures. The cover of Gateways to Terror was recently changed, granted, but the original cover art is still right at the front of the book. I don't expect those kinds of changes to happen frequently.

Honestly, as Fallingtower recently said, we are in a Golden Age of Call of Cthulhu. And some people seem incapable of appreciating that fact.

I think it is important for people to recognize the balance of posts that they have on any forum. If you have mostly positive posts, or even a mixture of positive and some negative, your presence is generally welcome. But if your posts are largely negative, largely combative, and are a source of drama from the moment you walk in? Don't be surprised if people struggle to respect your contributions. Or ignore you. Don't want to be ignored? Give people reasons not to ignore you.

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by klecser

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, midwinter said:

I might be dickish in tone and attitude according to the dozen or so active on this forum, but I'm certainly not alone in that, Jeff. So, you inform me that I am about the only one who gets complaints in this forum. That's a classic dick move, Jeff. Singling me out as the sole problem, the snake in your Eden? The forum would be so much better without me I bet. Smooth sailings. Do you want to make me feel guilty because everybody else on this forum is so sensitive they can't handle what I write?

I'm beginning to think that you aren't such a nice guy, Jeff. Well, when the Swedish edition is done I won't have any need for this forum anymore. There's no need to scold me that much longer. I rather give Eloso förlag my money. They treat me nicely in the FB group and have praised my layouts too for Chock.

But Jeff, I still want an answer to why there was a Lenin-Stalin image in the background of one of your actual plays of the dreaded Berlin supplement on Youtube though. I think I'm the only one who has brought it up, strangely enough. I did it as soon as I saw it on Youtube and I commented on the video (I can't see that comment now). It took two episodes to cover the walls with dark cloth. Is the picture still hanging behind it?

And with that, you can take a month off. You are of course welcome to return after 30 days. But I am beginning to feel that maybe this forum is not a good fit for you.

[Agentmax7]

Ok first of all, yes this was my first post on this forum. However, I have been a member for almost 1 year.
Second, no I did not intend to sabotage or upset anyone.
Thirdly, I am a supporter of Chaosium and I love the game Call of Cthulhu, I do not think the pictures are ugly or I do not want to try so that books would not be produced etc. absolutely not.

I feel I may not have been clear enough in my post. I do not mean that RPG books should not contain pictures and I am not against portraying monsters, in fact I like monsters (think most people do in this hobby) The only thing was that my opinion is that it can be done in different ways . And as many have commented on already, everyone has their own opinion on what that way should be.

Social media and forums are great tools (sometimes) but also come with a lot of responsibility. We currently live in a society where everyone wants to say what they think, an opinion society, that has its advantages and disadvantages. I guess I fell a bit for that temptation to write down my opinion. The forum must give room for different opinions, but it may not be as productive if everyone only had an opinion on what they did not like, just as it would be just as wrong if it were the other way around. What I'm trying to say is, it's about how you formulate your opinion that is important and what does it intend to create, build, etc.
I work with art and film so I have a certain interest in image. Was hoping that the discussion would instead be about if the gaming industry has a specific aesthetic tradition? How does is change depending on what genre? But that might be another forum for that.

I think it's sad that the mood on the forum got so bad.
I guess everyone's a little bit right in some of what they write.
That said, I was not looking to make anyone annoyed, I only had one opinion which is obviously my own opinion, which I hope is a little clearer now.

keep it up everyone

[MOB]

4 minutes ago, Agentmax7 said:

I work with art and film so I have a certain interest in image. Was hoping that the discussion would instead be about if the gaming industry has a specific aesthetic tradition? How does is change depending on what genre? But that might be another forum for that.

By all means start a new discussion thread on that topic!

4 minutes ago, Agentmax7 said:

That said, I was not looking to make anyone annoyed, I only had one opinion which is obviously my own opinion, which I hope is a little clearer now.

keep it up everyone

No worries. You are most welcome here.

[Bill the barbarian]

37 minutes ago, Agentmax7 said:

That said, I was not looking to make anyone annoyed, I only had one opinion which is obviously my own opinion, which I hope is a little clearer now.

 

Welcome to BRP central and sorry if we come across poorly, we do try to welcome people as a rule, and thank you for a/ posting an opinion, as you note, it is a hard time to try to communicate, so well done, and b/ Thanks for sticking around and posting again, brave of you...

I think I got your drift you are of the show not tell school  

In any case post away and again welcome.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[klecser]

39 minutes ago, Agentmax7 said:

I think it's sad that the mood on the forum got so bad.
I guess everyone's a little bit right in some of what they write.
That said, I was not looking to make anyone annoyed, I only had one opinion which is obviously my own opinion, which I hope is a little clearer now.

keep it up everyone

Great post Agentmax7! It can be very difficult to read intent online. This helps to clarify what your goals were. I'm all about that aesthetic tradition discussion! Let's discuss in another thread.

[MOB]

Loïc Muzy is staying busy over the festive season – here's a Christmas greeting by way of two work-in-progress sketches for the new book: Chaosium's Dark Young of Shub-Niggurath and Clarke Ashton Smith's Atlach-Nacha

[MOB]

Mr Albert Shiny is not quite what he seems. More work-in-progress for the Malleus Monstrorum by Loïc Muzy.

[dnorth]

This is book is going to be amazing!

[Dethstrok9]

On 2/7/2020 at 8:51 AM, dnorth said:

This is book is going to be amazing!

I've only just got on the bandwagon, yet I already feel as though I've been waiting far too long for a CoC monster Manual.

[MOB]

More of Loïc Muzy's magnificent work-in-progress from the MALLEUS MONSTRORUM, due out later this year. Seen here, Courtier of the King in Yellow, Avatar of Nyarlathotep (the Bloody Tongue), Scarecrow.

[Travern]

Muzy's work looks superb as always, and these previews continue to whet my already slavering appetite for the final work.

Will the new edition of the Malleus Monstrorum feature solely Muzy's art, or will there be a mix like the old one?

[rsanford]

Wow the art is great!  I hadn't planned to get another copy of Malleus Monstorum but with art like this I may not be able to resist!

[ColoradoCthulhu]

I have to say that the 7th edition material is of a much higher production quality than what I have seen for the sixth edition. The 7th edition covers, interior art, and layout now match or surpass that of other major tabletop gaming studios like Wizards of the Coast, which Call of Cthulhu's releases in the recent past didn't achieve.

Interestingly, the earliest CoC supplements for the 1st and 2nd editions are also high quality but then releases seemed to decline after that until rising to their current quality for the 7th edition. Any thoughts on why this happened?

 

[Rick Meints]

18 hours ago, ColoradoCthulhu said:

I have to say that the 7th edition material is of a much higher production quality than what I have seen for the sixth edition. The 7th edition covers, interior art, and layout now match or surpass that of other major tabletop gaming studios like Wizards of the Coast, which Call of Cthulhu's releases in the recent past didn't achieve.

Interestingly, the earliest CoC supplements for the 1st and 2nd editions are also high quality but then releases seemed to decline after that until rising to their current quality for the 7th edition. Any thoughts on why this happened?

 

Thank you for the compliments. The Chaosium Call of Cthulhu team all works very hard to produce quality material in all aspects.

As for the quality of some of the material produced for the 3rd through the 6th edition, there is no all encompassing answer. One thing I do know is that from 1998 until 2015, a period of almost 20 years, Chaosium was in a financial crisis and always struggled to have enough money to keep going. Most things were done on a shoestring budget.

[ColoradoCthulhu]

44 minutes ago, Rick Meints said:

Thank you for the compliments. The Chaosium Call of Cthulhu team all works very hard to produce quality material in all aspects.

As for the quality of some of the material produced for the 3rd through the 6th edition, there is no all encompassing answer. One thing I do know is that from 1998 until 2015, a period of almost 20 years, Chaosium was in a financial crisis and always struggled to have enough money to keep going. Most things were done on a shoestring budget.

I noticed that the turnaround started at 2015, which could be called "The Chaosium Renaissance." My guess was that budgets for projects in the recent past were just lower before the 7th edition and then Chaosium's fortunes started to rise in the last five years along with much of the tabletop gaming industry. Thank you, Stranger Things, I suppose.

[kross]

I think this is more of a case of "Thank you Moon Design".

[ColoradoCthulhu]

2 hours ago, kross said:

I think this is more of a case of "Thank you Moon Design".

What is Moon Design?

[rsanford]

Moon Design took over Chaosium from the previous management when Chaosium went into big debt and started to fail. The guys at Moon Design paid all the Chaosium debts and among other things improved Chaosium’s quality. They also brought RuneQuest and Pendragon back into the fold. They saved Chaosium.