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Sir_Godspeed

What Were the Talastarings Before the Dawn?

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A fairly quick question:

The Talastarings were contacted by the Unity Council around 100 after the Dawn, and maintained relations/joined them after that.
They seem to have organized from nine clans to nine tribes?
I am not sure if this means that this was the first time they had contact, or whether they had previously been contacted by Lightbringer missionaries.
We are also told (by @Jeff if I remember correctly) that the Talastarings fared a lot worse than the Heortlings in the Darkness and did not have any significant survival legends/secrets of their own. In practice, this meant that they took in much of the Lightbringer missions' teachings and effectively became Heortlings.

What I am wonder is if what the Talastarings were before the Greater Darkness battered them so low. Were they the last remnant of one of the Vingkotling tribes Are they the amalgamation of the last remnants of several Vingkotling tribes?

This seems to me to be the simplest answer, however the map of settlements of the Dawn Age in the Book of Heortling Mythology places them borth of the Penenthelli and the Berenethtelli, which appear to me to be the northernmost actual Vingkotlings. It also means that these tribes were still around, and not battered so badly they ceased to exist. 

There are arguably Orlanthi even further north, such as the Sylilans (BoHM calls them Sylilings, but same things, I assume), just south of Alkoth, and as far as I know, they are a kind of Storm people devoted to Odayla. I am not sure if they were ever considered a part of the Vingkotling confederation/ethnicity, although there are Heortling myths that state that Odayla was a Thunder Brother, and was granted Sylila by Orlanth, so it would at least seem like they were part of a common cultural area, if nothing else. (Not necessarily in the sense that this myth is literally true, but at least in the sense that Odayla was significant enough for southern Vingkotlings/Heortlings to regularly feature him in their stories, and mention his homeland by name.)

So... yeah... them Talastarings, eh?

(Answers for other Storm Belt peoples is also welcome, but please keep it specific, as I am woefully uncertain about a lot of the Pelorian Orlanthi, such as Brolia, Charg, etc.)

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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Perhaps they were some of the Vingkotlings who were victims of Seravus the Enchanter who stole all their animals?  

I realize this story isn't from the Greater Darkness, but I've always suspected there is a bigger version of it out there than the version told by Heortlings.  It also felt like something that happened farther North than the Maniria, IIRC (I haven't looked at my Manirian notes in a while though, so I forget why).

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The Talastaring Ancestors were not one of the Vingkotlings.  They appear in Pelorian mythology as the Andam Horde (and possibly the Ram People).  They differ from the Vingkotlings in that they worship Orlanth as Visku from Top-of-the-World (Guide p342).  They differed from the Heortlings in that they valued Sheep rather than Cattle.  They may have been related to the Feldichi.  They may have been led by Varnaval (Book of Heortling Mythology p162 and the Eleven Lights p129).

Seravus lived in Ralios (the Orlanthi had to pass through a mountain pass guided by 500 feet tall giants to reach his lands) Book of Heortling Mythology p77.  The pass is said to be impassable to humans but is probably know to the Uz of Halikiv so they could menace Aggar.

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34 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Talastaring Ancestors were not one of the Vingkotlings.  They appear in Pelorian mythology as the Andam Horde (and possibly the Ram People).  They differ from the Vingkotlings in that they worship Orlanth as Visku from Top-of-the-World (Guide p342).  They differed from the Heortlings in that they valued Sheep rather than Cattle.  They may have been related to the Feldichi.  They may have been led by Varnaval (Book of Heortling Mythology p162 and the Eleven Lights p129).

Seravus lived in Ralios (the Orlanthi had to pass through a mountain pass guided by 500 feet tall giants to reach his lands) Book of Heortling Mythology p77.  The pass is said to be impassable to humans but is probably know to the Uz of Halikiv so they could menace Aggar.

Very fascinating!

I was considering associating the Ram people (although not necessarily the Andam Horde) with Janard Lastralgar and the Lastralgartelli who according to the myths lead a (failed) invasion of Dara Happa, whereupon his tribe split - although the resulting Star Tribes settled on the Upper Oslir, so I discounted them from having anything to do with the Talastarings.

This, however, not only makes more sense, but gives them an incredibly interesting backstory. I have a fondness for all those other Storm peoples that got sort of came and went/haven't been covered as well.

After looking at the wiki, it seems to say that Visku is their name for Top-of-the-World rather than Orlanth himself, is this correct (I don't have the Guide on my, sadly). Are the Viskuan the same as the Talastarings, or where they ancestral to the West-Pelorian and Fronelan Orlanthi prior to the Darkness or in the Gray Age or something?

EDIT: I remember that the story of the raid on Arran included passing through a pass, but I didn't seriously consider current-day Gloranthan geography too seriously in that story, since God Time geography is a bit all over the place. I'll reconsider that attitude. I guess maybe it was Kartolin Pass or nearby, then?

Also, is Aggar of Vingkotling provenance, or similarly of another group?

Edited by Sir_Godspeed

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9 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I was considering associating the Ram people (although not necessarily the Andam Horde) with Janard Lastralgar and the Lastralgartelli who according to the myths lead a (failed) invasion of Dara Happa, whereupon his tribe split - although the resulting Star Tribes settled on the Upper Oslir, so I discounted them from having anything to do with the Talastarings.

I think the Lastralgortelli invasion much later myself than the Ram People.

9 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:


After looking at the wiki, it seems to say that Visku is their name for Top-of-the-World rather than Orlanth himself,

The mountain is called Visku.  In the Dawn Age and before, the people may have called the God Visku/Viskuranth?viskuvath.  Nowadays they are likely to call him Orlanth.  

 

9 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

iAre the Viskuan the same as the Talastarings, or where they ancestral to the West-Pelorian and Fronelan Orlanthi prior to the Darkness or in the Gray Age or something?

The Viskuans is just a wiki term to dentore the Orlanthi of Peloria who were not descended from the Vingkotlings.  What they called themselves is unknown (Thunder Rebels mentions the Talastings from the hero Talast but he doesn't appear in later works).

 

9 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:


 I guess maybe it was Kartolin Pass or nearby, then?

Kartolin Pass can be travelled by humans so that's probably not it.  A pass between Aggar and Halikiv is infered from Trollpak

Halikiv expanded its borders in all directions for a time,
expanding over the mountains which were impassable to men
and difficult even for trolls. Hunting parties regularly swept
through the spruce woods south of the Mislari Mountains,
harassing elves who lived there. They also raided the humans
of the Aggar region so continually that it was nearly abandoned
by them.

Trollpak p30.

There's also the map on p165 of the Glorantha Sourcebook which shows the trolls of Halikiv reaching Aggar well to the east of Kartolin Pass in the vicinity of mount Seren (according to the Argan Argar Atlas.p28)

 

9 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Also, is Aggar of Vingkotling provenance, or similarly of another group?

The Aggarites are descended from the Vingkotlings (the Vestantes and the Penentelli) Book of Heortling Mythology p89.

 

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The Aggarites were known anciently (and confusingly) as the Ram People - not to be confused with the ones above - for their noted preference for Voriof. It was from them that the Orlanthi practices moved north into the non-Theyalan groups like the Talastarings, all the way into the heartlands of what is now the Lunar Empire. The Talastaring Anadiki who now lean heavily into Odayla worship thanks to local Pelandan Ertel Enari worship are in present-day Doblian Satrapy, and the Alakoring Odalyings of Sylila are more recent refugees from the Dragonkill.

The divine thunder ram that lived on Vorios was tamed by Jotorang Ingkarthorson the Talastaring, who we know better as the Great Betrayer Lokamayadon.

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5 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

The Aggarites were known anciently (and confusingly) as the Ram People - not to be confused with the ones above - for their noted preference for Voriof. It was from them that the Orlanthi practices moved north into the non-Theyalan groups like the Talastarings, all the way into the heartlands of what is now the Lunar Empire. The Talastaring Anadiki who now lean heavily into Odayla worship thanks to local Pelandan Ertel Enari worship are in present-day Doblian Satrapy, and the Alakoring Odalyings of Sylila are more recent refugees from the Dragonkill.

The divine thunder ram that lived on Vorios was tamed by Jotorang Ingkarthorson the Talastaring, who we know better as the Great Betrayer Lokamayadon.

I mean, I *did* manage to follow that, but it was dangerously close to word salad for me. Once Lunar satrapies that don't follow the borders of traditional regions, but may or may not share names with them, and the myriad minor local kingdoms of Peloria come into the picture I feel like I did when I first opened up King of Sartar for the first time. :P

Edited by Sir_Godspeed

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2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I mean, I *did* manage to follow that, but it was dangerously close to word salad for me. Once Lunar satrapies that don't follow the borders of traditional regions, but may or may not share names with them, and the myriad minor local kingdoms of Peloria come into the picture I feel like I did when I first opened up King of Sartar for the first time. :P

There's a ton of useful hand-drawn maps, this one came from Fortunate Succession. Note: Mount Jernalf there might be more familiar to you if you know its older name, Jernotius.

Sylila is right north of Aggar, both are down south of the map but as you can see, pretty far north of Kerofinela or anywhere you think of as Orlanthi.

The Anadikki are west of Sylila and the Arir Hills south of Jernalf-Jernotius are about the northern limit of coherent, named Orlathings, although there are certainly Orlanthi tribes throughout the region west as far as the Sweet Sea and Char Un (under the Ban still).

page4image8767936-16.thumb.jpeg.97c9de20c136fa6404716b01f1124f91.jpeg

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The Guide (p.711) mentions Varknathendar as the survival site of the nine Talastaring clans:

Quote

 hunter-gatherers  whose  storm god had disappeared in the Underworld. As a result, they worshiped nine minor spirits.

These appear to be different from the Hagolings.

At the time of the Breaking of the Council, the Orlanthi are split into Heortlings (who left) and Talastarings who remained. The Heortling origin of the Dorastan settlers remains unmentioned.

8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I was considering associating the Ram people (although not necessarily the Andam Horde) with Janard Lastralgar and the Lastralgartelli who according to the myths lead a (failed) invasion of Dara Happa, whereupon his tribe split - although the resulting Star Tribes settled on the Upper Oslir, so I discounted them from having anything to do with the Talastarings.

The sons of Vingkot invasions pattern nicely to the Dara Happan reports on the loss of Elempur (and possibly Jorganos acquiring the Bow of Yelm) and the victory of Urvairinus (GRoY p.25). I don't see any convincing argument for dissociating these events.

There are plenty of non-Vingkotling Orlanthi north of the Vingkotling lands - Sylilan bear people, Vanchite blue deer and raccoon people, Imtherite goat herders. Northwest, we have all those cattle Orlanthi north of the Nidan Mountains.

8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This, however, not only makes more sense, but gives them an incredibly interesting backstory. I have a fondness for al those other Storm peoples that got sort of came and went/haven't been covered as well.

There are plenty "sons of Storm Bull"-like pastoralists on both sides of the Nidan-Western Rockwood range. A lot of them (also) qualify as Hykimi in origin, descending from the One Mountain into the lands of the horticulturalists, creating the old ranchers vs. farmers conflict.

On 7/8/2019 at 10:42 PM, Joerg said:

A case can be made that all the pastoralist beast riders that populated the uplands of the western Rockwoods, the Mislari, and the Nidan chain were Umathi in origin, as were the Beast Riders of Genert's Garden and Desero's Horde in Pamaltela. There seems to be a somewhat fluid transition from Tawari bull hsunchen to both Enjoreli aboriginees in Loskalm and Bisosae in Pelanda. Likewise there is a strong Storm connection for Rathor and probably Arakang making them hard to discern from the part animist, part theist Odayla of northern Saird.

Their relation to the Vingkotlings is another question. Sylilans, Imtherites and Vanchites probably were on the dry lands between the Osliran and the Madadan seas, whereas the rest was on the western Greatwood portion of the remaining dry lands. I would place the Hagolings (or their ancestors) on that western dry land.

But then, looking at the Dawn Survival sites, the Penentelli of western and Vestantes of southern Aggar

8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

EDIT: I remember that the story of the raid on Arran included passing through a pass, but I didn't seriously consider current-day Gloranthan geography too seriously in that story, since God Time geography is a bit all over the place. I'll reconsider that attitude. I guess maybe it was Kartolin Pass or nearby, then?

According to Heortling Mythology, this was a pass guarded by a pair of mountain giants, and impassable for mortals (though not for the retrieved herds, and neither on their theft by the Enchanter).

Odayla's arrow shattered the life crystal of one of those giant guardians. Hedkoranth's Thunderstone beheaded the other giant, then the giant hit by Odayla toppled over in an avalanche that sent the body down as an avalanche of rubble.

There is an unnamed twinned sierra east of Soren Mountain, south of Billiz, about straight west of Grizzley Peak (unnamed in the map on p.180 in the Guide) which could be the site of that conflict.

8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Also, is Aggar of Vingkotling provenance, or similarly of another group?

Vingkotling-Heortling, at least up to the EWF era. I am not exactly clear what provenance the Old Day Traditionalists overcome by Isgangdrang were (I suspect they were a motley group of refugees from the draconic take-over in Saird and Kerofinela).

The settled parts of Aggar appear to be the location of Thrinbarri.

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The question of the Talastarings' origin is interesting to me, because I've been trying to understand the historical/mythic roots of the Orlanthi peoples in Fronela. From what I understand, they all descend from Talastaring clans that gradually migrated north and west in the Dawn Age, and formed their own kingdoms. First there was Somaria (modern-day Anadikki and Brolia), then Talsardia (modern-day Charg). It's interesting to consider that in addition to all the other weird crap that Fronelan Orlanthi do like riding bulls and worshiping some Pelorian/Pelandan gods, they may have different core traditions as well that set them apart from the Heortlings. 

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2 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

The question of the Talastarings' origin is interesting to me, because I've been trying to understand the historical/mythic roots of the Orlanthi peoples in Fronela. From what I understand, they all descend from Talastaring clans that gradually migrated north and west in the Dawn Age, and formed their own kingdoms.

That's drastically different from my model - while there was an influx of Council missionaries, many of those hill tribes were former Tawari. The Talastari are ram-Orlanthi, while the Fronelans and Talsardians are bull-Orlanthi. The Theyalan Missionaries would have been Heortlings at least as much as Talastarings. Guide p.222:

Quote

 The majority of  the people were  cattle-raising  pastoralists  who  were quick  to  embrace  the  Theyalan  gods.

Sounds like Tawari to me.

The only westward migration in the books is that of the Vathmai into Slontos, south of Ralios rather than north of it. Other councilic settlers enter northern Ralios through Kartolin Pass after the Battle of Zebrawood, again probably of Heortling (or Esrolian) origin rather than Talastaring (at the Dawn, the Heortlings outnumber the Talastarings 10 to 1).

 

2 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

First there was Somaria (modern-day Anadikki and Brolia), then Talsardia (modern-day Charg). It's interesting to consider that in addition to all the other weird crap that Fronelan Orlanthi do like riding bulls and worshiping some Pelorian/Pelandan gods, they may have different core traditions as well that set them apart from the Heortlings. 

Including Hykimi/Hsunchen ancestry, or some other local beast totem not-quite Hsunchen origin (like Bisosae, Enjoreli, or in Ralios Enerali and Pendali ancestry).

 

I have a lot less of an idea what went on in modern Doblian satrapy prior to Sheng's invasion. Fortunate Succession leaves this area out of its focus most of the time. We have a few military units with some history from the region, including the Doblian Dog-Eaters, and we have the Eel-ariash story originating here. The rest is just local color.

Did the natives here join the Council prior to the Dara Happans, or as part of their empire? After the retreat of the horse warlords, the Dara Happans needed a while to consolidate their footman power before spreading out this far east.

There are native deities like Arakang and Orogeria or Sakkar which are not that different from Odayla, yet they appear to have been inside the Pelorian fold rather than the Theyalan one. Was the Suvarian Lodrili inheritance that strong?

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

That's drastically different from my model - while there was an influx of Council missionaries, many of those hill tribes were former Tawari. The Talastari are ram-Orlanthi, while the Fronelans and Talsardians are bull-Orlanthi. The Theyalan Missionaries would have been Heortlings at least as much as Talastarings. Guide p.222:

 

Not wanting to derail the thread, I agree that the Tawari form a big part of Fronela's Orlanthi heritage. That's probably where the bull-riding comes in. But that same page in the Guide describes the kingdom of Talsardia as a distinct, separate entity from the Hsunchen. They are "ruled by an Orlanthi dynasty from Brolia and their Praxian allies." Where do these people come from if not Dorastor or Talastar? I admit that if it's Dorastor, they may not be culturally Talastari at all, but have Heortling customs instead, or a mix thereof. I'm confused about these "bull-Orlanthi" you describe. Did they exist in the Dawn Age, or is this a term you use to represent the modern people in the region? 

 

 

Edited by Gallowglass
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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The only westward migration in the books is that of the Vathmai into Slontos, south of Ralios rather than north of it. Other councilic settlers enter northern Ralios through Kartolin Pass after the Battle of Zebrawood, again probably of Heortling (or Esrolian) origin rather than Talastaring (at the Dawn, the Heortlings outnumber the Talastarings 10 to 1).

 

The more I re-read the relevant sections of the Guide, the more I can understand your theory. But I feel like if all the Orlanthi people of Jonatela, Oranor, Charg and the Janube river were originally Tawari, who were a Hsunchen culture, there would be more of an indication for that than the occasional reference to riding bulls. There clearly was some mingling of cultures going on, but there was also a lot of war and conflict between the Hsunchen and the Talsardians. It's unclear in the Guide, but it seems just as likely that the Orlanthi of Fronela could have conquered and assimilated the Tawari, and resettled their lands in the west. 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I have a lot less of an idea what went on in modern Doblian satrapy prior to Sheng's invasion. Fortunate Succession leaves this area out of its focus most of the time. We have a few military units with some history from the region, including the Doblian Dog-Eaters, and we have the Eel-ariash story originating here. The rest is just local color.

Did the natives here join the Council prior to the Dara Happans, or as part of their empire? After the retreat of the horse warlords, the Dara Happans needed a while to consolidate their footman power before spreading out this far east.

There are native deities like Arakang and Orogeria or Sakkar which are not that different from Odayla, yet they appear to have been inside the Pelorian fold rather than the Theyalan one. Was the Suvarian Lodrili inheritance that strong?

I'm not really sure how all this connects. I've looked at the Dawn Age maps quite a bit to get a sense of the local history, and the region of Doblian looks it's part of the Dara Happan Empire from 265 onwards. When I originally mentioned Pelorian or Pelandan gods, I meant the weird outliers like Ladaral (Lodril), Vorthan (Shargash), and Ganestos (probably GanEstoro). 

Edited by Gallowglass

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I think "Bull-Orlanthi" and "Ram-Orlanthi" are just informal ways to describe which groups tend to primarily make their living off cattle or sheep - or maybe it has to do with which animal they associate their highest god with (Heortlings seem to value cattle highest, for example, but tend to view Orlanth with ram-features more than they do bull-features, which is relegated to Urox.)

But that's just my interpretation.

As for the movement of the missionaries - it was my impression that they came through Maniria (via the Entruli states) and Ralio (via Dorastor) before entering Fronela. Although I don't see why a northern angle might not have occured simultaneously.

As for the Tawari - it's less that they were full-on Hsunchen, and more that they were animal-totemic Storm pastoralists (like Praxians, I guess). They may have once been the equivalent of Hsunchen before the Storm Age, even, but at some point they appear to have adopted more clear theistic and Storm-based societes (at least based on the clues we get in sources related to Western Peloria, ie. Bisosae, etc.)

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5 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

As for the Tawari - it's less that they were full-on Hsunchen, and more that they were animal-totemic Storm pastoralists (like Praxians, I guess). They may have once been the equivalent of Hsunchen before the Storm Age, even, but at some point they appear to have adopted more clear theistic and Storm-based societes (at least based on the clues we get in sources related to Western Peloria, ie. Bisosae, etc.)

Given the looseness of Hsunchen as a term (given it's been applied to Qa-Ying and Galanini), it wouldn't surprise me that this was the case, and you had a wide group of nomadic cattle riding barbarian-belters who split up to become the Tawari, Bisosae, and maybe even the Lo-fak.

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11 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

But I feel like if all the Orlanthi people of Jonatela, Oranor, Charg and the Janube river were originally Tawari, who were a Hsunchen culture, there would be more of an indication for that than the occasional reference to riding bulls.

There is a fairly distinct split in Jonatela etc between the noble culture, which seemed quite Orlanthi and was then unified by Jonat and somewhat Malkionised, and the peasant culture. The Peasant culture has Ernalda and Frona, but the male deities still seem largely animal gods (the Black Bear god, and Bakan the Boar, prominent among them, as well as bull reverence somehow - Urox is still one of the war gods). It sounds to me a lot like the peasant culture has a much larger presence of the old Hsunchen culture, and the Noble culture is much more Theyalan. The Guide says the Hykimi encouraged Theyalan worship among the Hsunchen in the early First Age (I guess while the Hykimi began as a shaman-priest class among the Hsunchen, they were outside the individual clans and had little loyalty to the specific Hsunchen cults), and the Tawari and Enjoreli more broadly embraced it. And then once the Hykimi are smashed the Hsunchen either retreat into seclusion, or become Orlanthi dominated pastoralists. 

The Tawari seem to have been Hsunchen who transitioned to being pastoralists, but when that transition really happened seems to be question. 

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On 9/8/2019 at 1:20 AM, Joerg said:

The origin story of the Talastarings is buried in this story:

https://www.glorantha.com/docs/the-missionaries/

Personally, I think they were not directly a Vingkotling tribe but one of the many other pastoralist folks - a splinter of the ram tribe. Not quite Helerings, though.

In my game, I'm going to put more emphasis on the ram worship than for regular Heortlings. You can tell that there's some kind of ram mythological complex buried under current-day Heortling mythology, where it has been shunted to the edges as cattle replaced sheep as the mythologically crucial animal. I'm giving that more room in Talastar.

With Talastar, we have/had deities like Hagodereth, Hethana, Vorios, and so on. Possibly Varnaval or some earlier, much more important version of Voriof (I think Voriof gives every indication of having once been a lot more important). With the combination of Talastar being more rugged and best suited for sheep, and the general backwardness of its inhabitants, I think a more pronounced ram mythology makes all kinds of sense there. Even Lokomayadon (spit!) did a lot of his stuff using ram mythologies.

But yes, not Helerings though. More like sharing some of the underlying myths with the Helerings.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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12 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I think "Bull-Orlanthi" and "Ram-Orlanthi" are just informal ways to describe which groups tend to primarily make their living off cattle or sheep - or maybe it has to do with which animal they associate their highest god with (Heortlings seem to value cattle highest, for example, but tend to view Orlanth with ram-features more than they do bull-features, which is relegated to Urox.)

I'm less certain of that. Take the Brolians - at least under my reading, sheep are far and away their most important produce. Meanwhile, their mythology is very Bull-heavy.

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