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"Let's talk a little bit about Your Glorantha Will Vary (YGWV)" by Ian Cooper

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9 hours ago, MOB said:

The “official” canon for the world is found in material published by Chaosium/Moon Design Publications, with what is presented in The Guide to Glorantha and The Glorantha Sourcebook as definitive.

The tricky part, of course, is when that doesn't answer your question - when later material may disagree with the Guide, or when you have to choose between the world as presented in one Chaosium or Moon Design product or another. There are going to be quite a few of these. 

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17 hours ago, soltakss said:

You can give the elephant a mace as well, it swings it using its trunk. Its tusks can be tipped with a metal casing, meaning they do extra damage and have armour. I've seen pictures of elephants wearing chain headdresses and over the body, but not over the legs, however, I assume they can have plate armour tied to their legs. War elephants used to be fed bucketfuls of strong beer, to get them drunk, so they go into combat enraged, although these wouldn't have had a howdah on their backs, probably.

The largest use of war-elephantids in modern Glorantha is probably Fonritian shovel-tuskers. I think they still have a flexible trunk, but their tusks are certainly different. I love the idea of getting them drunk before battle. 

 

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On 9/13/2019 at 12:13 PM, Jeff said:

SkoH and SC represent my half-way house between the Issaries material and where we wanted to move things. I'd do a revised edition before I'd want to reprint them (they are all long out of print)

What's the outlook on POD for these? While I recognize a lot of the pre-/early- desktop publishing era titles in the Vault would require significant preflight labor for a respectable quality POD release, I'd hope the Moon Design era titles would just be a matter of tweaking @Rick Meints 's old layout files for export to whatever specs DriveThru or whomever require. 

That's a step that would take some of the sting out of being left behind by the new hotness, as well as support current releases like The Coming Storm that heavily rely on those out of print titles for background.

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1 hour ago, JonL said:

What's the outlook on POD for these? While I recognize a lot of the pre-/early- desktop publishing era titles in the Vault would require significant preflight labor for a respectable quality POD release, I'd hope the Moon Design era titles would just be a matter of tweaking @Rick Meints 's old layout files for export to whatever specs DriveThru or whomever require. 

That's a step that would take some of the sting out of being left behind by the new hotness, as well as support current releases like The Coming Storm that heavily rely on those out of print titles for background.

While I, like many of you, prefer printed books to PDFs, if a printed copy isn't available to me I am happy to fall back on getting the info via PDF. ALL of the titles you are asking about are available for sale on our website and DTRPG as PDFs. You HAVE access to all of that information, and at a far lower price than a POD book would cost. We will probably eventually have them as POD titles, but it takes time and resources, and they would have to be diverted from working on new products.

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On 9/15/2019 at 9:24 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

I'd love to play a game in Six Ages, I've even extracted the setting from the wiki into a document in case anyone is interested in a Grey Age campaign... as a Hyalorong!

I started a Hyaloring campaign in the Storm Age (sadly we weren’t able to keep playing), and ran a one-shot essentially in the time of the upcoming “Lights Going Out.” So yes, that lens on Glorantha is totally playable.

My understanding is that every culture has to change in some way to survive the Great Darkness. I assume your Grey Age game would deal with that in some fashion.

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On 9/15/2019 at 9:14 AM, Ian Cooper said:

Given we must accept YGWV at the table, why not go further and accept it on the door

Because on something on the Tin such as this will simply cause confusion among potential entrants into the various systems and to Glorantha itself. Confusion by someone getting ready to jump in is never good. Often, it will simply make them look over to this other game which isn't as confusing.

"YGWV at the table" has always been the case as G in this context stands for Game. All GMs tweak things a bit, even the worlds. This is normal. 

Glorantha should not vary (much) simply because of varying rule sets. And we certainly shouldn't have major back-and-forths simply because its the fashion of one decade or the other. Make a decision, stick with it, expand on it... and let the respective GMs decide on changes.

SDLeary

 

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On 9/16/2019 at 11:00 AM, Rick Meints said:

While I, like many of you, prefer printed books to PDFs, if a printed copy isn't available to me I am happy to fall back on getting the info via PDF. ALL of the titles you are asking about are available for sale on our website and DTRPG as PDFs. You HAVE access to all of that information, and at a far lower price than a POD book would cost. We will probably eventually have them as POD titles, but it takes time and resources, and they would have to be diverted from working on new products.

I have no trouble falling back on PDF either. However, I do prefer print, as I find my old tired eyes seem to prefer it, and for some reason I seem to retain more. In addition, while finding something in a PDF is pretty simple (if you have the correct search phrase), I find that comparing two sections MUCH easier in print. The only time I find a screen as easy for comparisons is if I'm on my large desktop monitor and I'm able to have both sections side by side; smaller screens just don't really cut it for this.

SDLeary

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OK, bumping in late and condensing down a wall of text that I typed into a smaller wall of text :D

I find YGM/WV to be somewhat patronising at times and a barrier to bringing new people into the game.

Reality is, no RPG has ever needed to give permission for people to vary their content.

Let's be frank here. The only reason Glorantha has that stuck over the door is because various people producing content for the properties under various ownership have wanted to stamp their views on things. So over the decades you have at least a few significant content variations, especially in terms of visual style.

That's fine. That's how narrative creation, and business, works.

I get the very strong feeling that YGM/WV has been pushed up front to mollify people who were introduced to Glorantha at one stage and will find it's 'current' style discordant. And that's a lot of people, and some quite different perspectives across all these decades. So I understand wanting to wave an olive branch at them, because when you're told the Sartarites you spent many years being told looked like THAT and now someone says NO NO THEY LOOK LIKE THIS, yeah, that isn't a fun thing. People invest emotionally and that kind of thing can be quite a kick in the guts.

However, there's a lot of handwaviness when people try to push YGM/WV philosophically, given I'm not seeing people actually diverging much outside of already existing content. It's not YOUR GLORANTHA MAY/WILL VARY IN ALL KIND OF DRAMATIC WAYS it really comes across as YOUR GLORANTHA MAY/WILL VARY WITHIN THE VARIOUS CONTENT PRESENTED OVER THE YEARS, at least from the majority of what I have observed.

These are not the same thing, very far from it, and I get the feeling at times that the loftier former view is pushed to obfuscate the somewhat harsher reality of the latter.

I'd argue that you don't need YGM/WV up front. It's frankly confusing for new people and unnecessary to boot. Feel free to explain that if they purchase older content they may see different things, but again, probably doesn't need explaining to adults.

If you do want to make it a genuine philosophical backdrop for any content, then probably do it properly. Discard the unified look and feel of any content and mix it up, without meaningless or confusing contradiction, of course.

I see YGM/WV pushed as a selling point at times and I don't think that's especially honest or successful in reality.

 

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8 minutes ago, datreus said:

I find YGM/WV to be somewhat patronising at times and a barrier to bringing new people into the game.

Reality is, no RPG has ever needed to give permission for people to vary their content.

There is  a bit more to it that it just being various people wanting to put their own stamp of things , or to mollify those who are not pleased with the current style of the game.

I think the original reason for the rule was to actually try to make the game more accessible and forging for GMs. Prior to it, a Glorathan GM felt like they needed to know more about Glorantha before they were ready to run it. YGMV basically said, "whatever you know id fine, it's your game, as long as you are having fun, it's good"

Yes there are differences among fans about things, and some stuff has changed over the years, but the I think the original idea behind YGMV was to easy the minds of new GMs who were overwhelmed and intimidated by all the Glorantha lore out there. Especially when dealing with people better versed in Glorantha than they were. If the fledgling GM did something "wrong" it was okay because it was their Glorantha. This was kinda a thing because most other games tended to have more generic, GM customization settings. 

YGMV also sort of important when the experienced GM want's to play and someone else tries to step up and run something without being intimidated by the experienced GM ("a colony of Yelmalion trolls?!!")

 

8 minutes ago, datreus said:

I see YGM/WV pushed as a selling point at times and I don't think that's especially honest or successful in reality.

When? I've seen it used to stop a couple of arguments to to just shrug off or accept an argument, but I've never seen any RQ product sold with YGMV as a selling feature. Some other Chaosium games, such as Pendragon have Your Game May Vary, with a similar intent. Basically whatever it might say in the rules or in a sourcebook or story, untimely it 's the GM's game so have fun and don't sweat the details. 

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1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

There is  a bit more to it that it just being various people wanting to put their own stamp of things , or to mollify those who are not pleased with the current style of the game.

I think the original reason for the rule was to actually try to make the game more accessible and forging for GMs. Prior to it, a Glorathan GM felt like they needed to know more about Glorantha before they were ready to run it. YGMV basically said, "whatever you know id fine, it's your game, as long as you are having fun, it's good"

I'm not sure this is different to any other RPG out there.

Quote

Yes there are differences among fans about things, and some stuff has changed over the years, but the I think the original idea behind YGMV was to easy the minds of new GMs who were overwhelmed and intimidated by all the Glorantha lore out there. Especially when dealing with people better versed in Glorantha than they were. If the fledgling GM did something "wrong" it was okay because it was their Glorantha. This was kinda a thing because most other games tended to have more generic, GM customization settings. 

YGMV also sort of important when the experienced GM want's to play and someone else tries to step up and run something without being intimidated by the experienced GM ("a colony of Yelmalion trolls?!!")

Again, this is pretty much the same for every RPG. I know that at its inception Glorantha was quite different from the competition but RPGs have been a broad church for some decades now and there's arguably many properties with much more 'intimidating' lore for a new GM, both in scope and complexity - and they don't need to preface anything.

Quote

 

When? I've seen it used to stop a couple of arguments to to just shrug off or accept an argument, but I've never seen any RQ product sold with YGMV as a selling feature. Some other Chaosium games, such as Pendragon have Your Game May Vary, with a similar intent. Basically whatever it might say in the rules or in a sourcebook or story, untimely it 's the GM's game so have fun and don't sweat the details. 

I don't mean as an official selling point but in terms of anecdotal 'sell me on...'. 

And that's pretty much the nutshell of why I posted.

I have seen YGM/WV used as a means to 'sell' Glorantha to newer players by more established fans of the setting. This is not something you see with other games, and that is because the notion is certainly a part of how some longer term fans 'see' Glorantha - because it's an idea that's been part of the 'official' discourse for a very long time, though arguably its meaning and intent has varied depending on who says it.

While it may not be on an advisory sticker on each book, it's certainly become a 'part' of the property and deployed by people who have associated with Glorantha for enough time to have absorbed it.

I'm just questioning the need for it, as I've seen it create more confusion than comfort in new players, and discord with older ones (who find their views not aligned with whichever content style is currently 'dominant').

So the question is what is it needed for?

Why cannot Glorantha, like pretty much every property, just say 'This is our setting' at the outset, and if you REALLY need to spell it out, do so in an appropriate place like the 'So you're new to GM'ing section' along with 'What are dice and how do I roll them?'

It's disingenuous to pretend that YGM/WV isn't a major part of the 'essence' of Glorantha in a thread devoted to that very topic, amongst many many others over the years.

It does seem to be something that holds value for a very specific group of the community, and while that's 100% fine and all, it's not like it's a concept they need re-stated as a frontispiece of the property, as they've already internalised it long ago (and not that they needed it stated explicitly then).

I guess I'm struggling to see the value of this notion outside of people who already understand and have internalised its value. Whenever I've tried discussing it with newer players, at best it's been extremely confusing for them until you explain the historical context in which case their politest reaction tends to be an eye roll.

What's its real value?

Edited by datreus

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1 hour ago, datreus said:

I'm not sure this is different to any other RPG out there.

You'd be sure if you looked at the amount of background info to Glorantha compnared any any other RPG out there, especially at the time. As far as fantasy RPGS go only MIddle Earth and perhaps Tekumel are as detailed as Glorantha, if even they are.

1 hour ago, datreus said:

Again, this is pretty much the same for every RPG. I know that at its inception Glorantha was quite different from the competition but RPGs have been a broad church for some decades now and there's arguably many properties with much more 'intimidating' lore for a new GM, both in scope and complexity - and they don't need to preface anything.

I don't think you are aware of just how much lore there is on Glorantha compared to other RPGs. Show me one FRPG deity that has an much written about their myths and legends as any one of the major Glorantha deities. Then look at that and remember that there is a whole world with gobs on information on it. So much that Chaosium has, at times, published pages of it over the years as throwaway scraps.

Now I run more Arthurian based RPGs (mianly Pendragon) than Glorantha based RPGs, and I'm more familiar with Arthurian literature, of which there is a good amount, and it generally covers more information than what you get in most RPGs, being written over many centuries by many differernt people and still being expanded upon today, yet Glorantha is far more in intimidating.

 

1 hour ago, datreus said:

I don't mean as an official selling point but in terms of anecdotal 'sell me on...'. 

And that's pretty much the nutshell of why I posted.

I've sever seen it used as a selling point. Not in any print advertisements, or by sales staff at a store. I've only seen in in print. Either in an official book as both a remember that GMs are free to alter things as they see fit, and to remind them that  their game will never  be the same as the "offical" one even if they try, since the circumnstances are not identical, or on a site like this to settle any debate over a game rule. Heck Jeff used it on my earlier today, because it didn't like buying up "loyalty" in RQG.

 

1 hour ago, datreus said:

I have seen YGM/WV used as a means to 'sell' Glorantha to newer players by more established fans of the setting.

Wiw! I've never seen it used that way, and frankly I wouldn't think much of as a selling point.

"Here, try this great game, but don't worry because you game may vary"

To me that sounds like a pretty left handed compliment. If the game is good why would you want it to vary? Taken out of context it sounds less like a selling point and more like an apology. 

 

1 hour ago, datreus said:

This is not something you see with other games, and that is because the notion is certainly a part of how some longer term fans 'see' Glorantha - because it's an idea that's been part of the 'official' discourse for a very long time, though arguably its meaning and intent has varied depending on who says it.

It's in HeroQuest  The earliest I recall the YGMY, which I think at times was Your Glorantha Must Vary, was in Hero Wars. It was latter added to RQ, and to help new GMs as I noted previously as well as to maybe soften some of the changes being made to Glorantha and RQ at around that time. The change from RQ to HW/HQ being one such change, "Elmal' and other changes to the mythos, and then later all the 2nd age stuff introduced by Mongoose. About the only change it didin't smooth over was when Orlanth got a Chaos rune association.

I've never see it used as a selling point of any kind, not could I see it being a valid selling point. 

It has been used mutipletime by Greg and other on forums when one GM dislikes a rule and states he doesn't want to use it, or wants to use a houserule.

1 hour ago, datreus said:

While it may not be on an advisory sticker on each book, it's certainly become a 'part' of the property and deployed by people who have associated with Glorantha for enough time to have absorbed it.

 

 

1 hour ago, datreus said:

I'm just questioning the need for it, as I've seen it create more confusion than comfort in new players, and discord with older ones (who find their views not aligned with whichever content style is currently 'dominant').

So the question is what is it needed for?

Needed? I don't think it is needed. Is anything needed? Does it help, yes. As yest in the form that it appears in print and in the proper context. If someone is using the phase out of context, then I don't see how removing the phase would help, as they could just as easily make up something else. 

 

If you are familiar with D&D is Rule 0 necessary? That is  basically what YGMV means. Only YGMV came out first. And BTW, speaking of Rule 0, try banning the various prestigue classess, races, feats, and items that popped up for 3rd edition in a campaign. Players feel that anything in an official book is something they are entitled to.

Oh, if  you go back before YGMV, compn aies just told you how to run the game and if you didn't do it the way they instructed you were doing it wrong. Go look old articles  from Gary Gygax on AD&D. 

1 hour ago, datreus said:

Why cannot Glorantha, like pretty much every property, just say 'This is our setting' at the outset, and if you REALLY need to spell it out, do so in an appropriate place like the 'So you're new to GM'ing section' along with 'What are dice and how do I roll them?'

It does that. But that wouldn't help. Look at it this way:

Let's say you are a new GM and you are impressed with Glorantha and would like a run a game set there, but you don't know that much about it, and find it all very intimidating. Sure there could be a two page intrdocution that tires to explain it to you. Or maybe a 200 page introduction. Niether one would be all that conclusive, and the more stuff you need to remember the harder it will be to run.   So you decide not to and stick with something easier to understand.

YGMV basically tells you that it's okay to give it a go with what you know, and that is is okay if it doesn't match up with the glorantha othe rpeople expect.

 

1 hour ago, datreus said:

It's disingenuous to pretend that YGM/WV isn't a major part of the 'essence' of Glorantha in a thread devoted to that very topic, amongst many many others over the years.

It does seem to be something that holds value for a very specific group of the community, and while that's 100% fine and all, it's not like it's a concept they need re-stated as a frontispiece of the property, as they've already internalised it long ago (and not that they needed it stated explicitly then).

I think you got you timeline a little skewed. YGMV didn't exist in RuneQuest in any form until. 

 

1 hour ago, datreus said:

I guess I'm struggling to see the value of this notion outside of people who already understand and have internalised its value. Whenever I've tried discussing it with newer players, at best it's been extremely confusing for them until you explain the historical context in which case their politest reaction tends to be an eye roll.

What's its real value?

In keeping people from being too intimated to play the game, or from causing strike when they game that someone else runs doesn't match their expectations.

What I don't understand is what harm it causes.

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Yes, I find the whole YGMV overdone and it is mentioned too often. So it becomes a bit of irritating to read it over and over again in all different contextes.
For me as a Glorantha fan and with an RPG background of nearly three decades, this phrase doesn't provide anything new or helpful.
I guess, this is a RQ/Glorantha thing from the past or in other words: a grognard wording, which hasn't aged well.

It has similarities with the recurring duck jokes on Facebook. You read it, roll your eyes and go to the next paragraph.
People use it inflationary and way too often. So it lost its bite.

Edited by prinz.slasar
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I have never understood it as permission giving, but rather as Greg's understanding that not all of us enjoyed being Gregged.  Ditto the latest incarnation of 'canon'.  My Glorantha Does Vary in that it retains many items that are no longer canon, but that I treasure from previous visions. I have never needed permission for that👹

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5 hours ago, datreus said:

OK, bumping in late and condensing down a wall of text that I typed into a smaller wall of text :D

Well. I must say, your post is an interesting opening gambit in saying hello to us all. Nice to meet you and welcome.

Not sure what to make of all this though. Are you saying hello and by the way the idea of playing the game you paid for as you wish, well it sucks... I am sure that is not what you mean, so again welcome.

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Every role-playing game and world likes its exceptionalism, and promoting it doesn't always come across well. But, that danger aside, Glorantha is quite possibly unique in that it was developed not only as a sandbox to tell stories, but to understand how and why stories work. As a world of myth, it focuses on stories, the power we invest in them and the power they have over us; how they resonate in our lives; how they provide meaning and structure. And that power will vary from listener to listener, irrespective of what the storyteller intends.

So on the one hand, we have a world of mythos. And on the other hand, particularly in the form of a game like RuneQuest, we have the prism of logos. Role-playing games, and geek fandoms in general, tend to be very logos-heavy. We categorise, reduce and determine. There is a fundamental tension there; sometimes fun, sometimes clunky.

As the Gloranthan community started to draw together, particularly in online form, we engaged in communal debate and storytelling, and discussing Greg (and others') creation. The logos was strong, as it always is. 'Your Glorantha May Vary' started as a very mild reminder that Glorantha, as a world of mythos, is not about rationalising a world down into single greater and common truths, or worshiping at Greg's unimpeachable altar, but more about exploring the meaning and power we get from it ourselves. And to enjoy that. As we as a fandom still didn't quite get that at times, the saying hardened into 'Your Glorantha Will Vary'.

That's all I ever saw it as, I guess. It's certainly how I use it. And, looking at our fandom at times, I'm not convinced the need has disappeared. :)

(I do agree that it should be used with purpose, however; and not littered around like confetti as a weak shibboleth.)

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2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

You'd be sure if you looked at the amount of background info to Glorantha compnared any any other RPG out there, especially at the time. As far as fantasy RPGS go only MIddle Earth and perhaps Tekumel are as detailed as Glorantha, if even they are.

Please don't patronise me or make assumptions. If I recall correctly, I've been playing in Glorantha since the 80s. At one point or another I believe I've owned almost every content item.

And this isn't a true assessment. There are plenty of other settings out there that equal or exceed Glorantha, depending on how you set your metrics.

Also, I think you may not realise that if you don't KNOW the scope of what you are unaware of, well, it's not generally intimidating.

For a new player/GM, Glorantha looks pretty much the same as any other FRPG.

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I've sever seen it used as a selling point. Not in any print advertisements, or by sales staff at a store. I've only seen in in print. Either in an official book as both a remember that GMs are free to alter things as they see fit, and to remind them that  their game will never  be the same as the "offical" one even if they try, since the circumnstances are not identical, or on a site like this to settle any debate over a game rule. Heck Jeff used it on my earlier today, because it didn't like buying up "loyalty" in RQG.

As I said, I don't mean a company sales point, but an anecdotal 'encouragement to play' if that helps explain it better.

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Wiw! I've never seen it used that way, and frankly I wouldn't think much of as a selling point.

"Here, try this great game, but don't worry because you game may vary"

To me that sounds like a pretty left handed compliment. If the game is good why would you want it to vary? Taken out of context it sounds less like a selling point and more like an apology. 

Indeed.

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

It's in HeroQuest  The earliest I recall the YGMY, which I think at times was Your Glorantha Must Vary, was in Hero Wars. It was latter added to RQ, and to help new GMs as I noted previously as well as to maybe soften some of the changes being made to Glorantha and RQ at around that time. The change from RQ to HW/HQ being one such change, "Elmal' and other changes to the mythos, and then later all the 2nd age stuff introduced by Mongoose. About the only change it didin't smooth over was when Orlanth got a Chaos rune association.

 

I think the biggest issue of YBM/WV has been due to changes in visual representation, which is kind of unmissable. There's been drastic shifts in visual connotation and cultural callbacks, which has always been from what I've seen the biggest cause of contention. As mentioned, with the Sartarites, they're almost unrecognisable in current forms from earlier interpretations.

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Needed? I don't think it is needed. Is anything needed? Does it help, yes. As yest in the form that it appears in print and in the proper context. If someone is using the phase out of context, then I don't see how removing the phase would help, as they could just as easily make up something else. 

 

If you are familiar with D&D is Rule 0 necessary? That is  basically what YGMV means. Only YGMV came out first. And BTW, speaking of Rule 0, try banning the various prestigue classess, races, feats, and items that popped up for 3rd edition in a campaign. Players feel that anything in an official book is something they are entitled to.

Oh, if  you go back before YGMV, compn aies just told you how to run the game and if you didn't do it the way they instructed you were doing it wrong. Go look old articles  from Gary Gygax on AD&D. 

It does that. But that wouldn't help. Look at it this way:

Let's say you are a new GM and you are impressed with Glorantha and would like a run a game set there, but you don't know that much about it, and find it all very intimidating. Sure there could be a two page intrdocution that tires to explain it to you. Or maybe a 200 page introduction. Niether one would be all that conclusive, and the more stuff you need to remember the harder it will be to run.   So you decide not to and stick with something easier to understand.

YGMV basically tells you that it's okay to give it a go with what you know, and that is is okay if it doesn't match up with the glorantha othe rpeople expect.

 

I think you got you timeline a little skewed. YGMV didn't exist in RuneQuest in any form until. 

 

In keeping people from being too intimated to play the game, or from causing strike when they game that someone else runs doesn't match their expectations.

What I don't understand is what harm it causes.

I've not seen any suggestion that people are especially intimidated to play Glorantha, which is why I ask. I see a lot of supposition that they should be, but not evidence as such. From what I've seen, the term gets most usage from people who are already playing in Glorantha.

If I WERE a new person and I stumbled across people discussing YGM/WV I'd find that a lot MORE intimidating than helpful.

Most new people want to start with a new game/setting as is and learn about it, rather than start trying to make it do weird and wonderful things off the bat before they even know what it is.

I get the feeling, and certainly quite a few YGM/WV threads I've seen over the years support this, is that there is a lot of 'oooh Glorantha is so much more complicated and involved than other settings, BEWARE NEWCOMERS!!!' from established players. I don't think that's especially true, and when it gets traction acts as a unnecessary deterrent to new blood.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Not sure what to make of all this though. Are you saying hello and by the way the idea of playing the game you paid for as you wish, well it sucks... I am sure that is not what you mean, so again welcome.

I kinda appreciate the snark, but clearly that's not what he was saying: indeed, he was saying that idea (of playing the game you paid for as you wish) is pretty much implied in being a member of the hobby. Anyway. I actually agree with the poster's sentiment and have usually, if not actually disliked, somewhat shrugged at the YGWV stuff. I still want a consistent Glorantha and I don't think the quest for that should be sneered at. But yeah all in all it's a fairly minor point in my musings, but just saying I empathize with the concerns raised by datreus.

Edited by Grievous

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5 hours ago, datreus said:

Please don't patronise me or make assumptions. If I recall correctly, I've been playing in Glorantha since the 80s. At one point or another I believe I've owned almost every content item.

I'm not, I'm merely try to explain YGMV to you. I've been playing in GLorathan since the 80s too.

5 hours ago, datreus said:

And this isn't a true assessment. There are plenty of other settings out there that equal or exceed Glorantha, depending on how you set your metrics.

Name one setting with as much detail, other than Middle Earth or Tekumel.

 

5 hours ago, datreus said:

Also, I think you may not realise that if you don't KNOW the scope of what you are unaware of, well, it's not generally intimidating.

No, but when you do have a grasp of the scope it is, and most Glorathan games in the YGMV era usually have a section on Glorantha and how Greg started creating it long before there were RPGs and how there is so  much lore about it. THat is also combined with the fact that Glorantha is very differernt from  most other FRPGs in that it is not derreived from  the typical Tolkienesque psuodo-fantasy Europe Model.

5 hours ago, datreus said:

For a new player/GM, Glorantha looks pretty much the same as any other FRPG.

No it doesn't. For someone who has also been playing in Glorantha since the 80s new players and GMs notice Glorantha is different in several ways:

  • It's cultures are not Middle Earth or European based.
  • It is a bronze age world, not an steel based one.
  • Everyone knows and casts magic, not just priests and wizards
  • Ties to culture and religion are more important than ties to the "Adventuring party"
  • It's species aren't typical FRPG fare either. Dwarves and Elves are not  the same sort of races as seen in Middle Earth, there are no hobbits or orcs, and there are a bunch of races unique to Glorantha.

No all of these things were very off-putting  to players back in the 70s and 80s, making it harder to get people to play the game, and was one of the reasons why RQ3 took RQ out of Glorantha. 

 

 

5 hours ago, datreus said:

As I said, I don't mean a company sales point, but an anecdotal 'encouragement to play' if that helps explain it better.

No, it doesn't. Could you provide some  example of it? I've already covered it in terms of not being intimidated by the setting  it, but you claim another sort of use.

5 hours ago, datreus said:

Indeed.

I think the biggest issue of YBM/WV has been due to changes in visual representation, which is kind of unmissable. There's been drastic shifts in visual connotation and cultural callbacks, which has always been from what I've seen the biggest cause of contention. As mentioned, with the Sartarites, they're almost unrecognisable in current forms from earlier interpretations.

How is that an "issue" of YGMV? The changes would have happened without YGMV, just as changes happened in  the  shfit from RQ2 to RQ3.

Now if you want to start a thread about "Gregging" that a whole  different topic.

5 hours ago, datreus said:

I've not seen any suggestion that people are especially intimidated to play Glorantha, which is why I ask. I see a lot of supposition that they should be, but not evidence as such. From what I've seen, the term gets most usage from people who are already playing in Glorantha.

You sure you been playing Glorantha since the 80s? Back then and even today, just getting most gamers to try anything that isn't a D&D based system is very difficult. Getting them to try to run it is almost impossible. Back when we had local RPG conventions any non D&D adventure was written by the same two or three GMs every year (we'd switch off games), and 80% of the players who "tried RuneQuest" at the convention typically grabbed a character ignored all the magic and tried to play it like a D&D fighter.

 

5 hours ago, datreus said:

If I WERE a new person and I stumbled across people discussing YGM/WV I'd find that a lot MORE intimidating than helpful.

I don't know why you'd find it intimidating. I wouldn't find it intimidating if applied to art, food, or much else. But then, until this thread, I've never run across people actually discussing it, not have I found YGMV to be all that helpful either. 

5 hours ago, datreus said:

Most new people want to start with a new game/setting as is and learn about it, rather than start trying to make it do weird and wonderful things off the bat before they even know what it is.

Exactly, and that is where YGMV helps. When you buy a typical RQ/HQ rulebook, you get  some information of various cultures but you do not get the same amount of depth and detail to know the setting "as is". Not all of it. At best you might know enough about one or two of the main cultures to get by, but that are not covered in the core book. YGMV was designed to let them know that okay, and they can just get by with what they know.

5 hours ago, datreus said:

I get the feeling, and certainly quite a few YGM/WV threads I've seen over the years support this, is that there is a lot of 'oooh Glorantha is so much more complicated and involved than other settings, BEWARE NEWCOMERS!!!' from established players. I don't think that's especially true, and when it gets traction acts as a unnecessary deterrent to new blood.

Okay, prove it. Show me another FRPG out there with the same depth and stuff written about it. Something other than Middle Earth (although that is both better know to to the main stream public and to mainstream FRPGers as it is the basis for D&D), or Tekumel (which has many of  the same problem with accessibility).

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1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Name one setting with as much detail, other than Middle Earth or Tekumel.

 

Star Wars, I guess? Difference is, few people take the internal consistensy of Star Wars as seriously as many Gloranthaphiles seem to do, and the Star Wars galaxy has a lot more "holes" in it where you can fill out the blanks yourself (at least compared to a campaign set in Sartar in the early 1600s). 

I guess maybe Trek comes close in the obsessive detail department, and I can only assume they have some licensed tabletop RPG or other. Once again the setting scale opening up more wiggle room though.

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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37 minutes ago, Shawn Carpenter said:

Harn.

 

HArn isn't as detailed.  It's a rich world, I 'll grant you, but  it's reglions and cultures don't have anywhere near the same depth. Harn is mostly a medeival society with a little customization, and Tolkien fantasy races thrown in. Show me one HArrinc hero or dietiry with as much written about them as , say Humakt.

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