Sartar under the House of Sartar

[Bill the barbarian]

15 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Source: Pavis. A middle class freeman’s dwelling is a common building. This house measures from 10-20 meters on a side. If square, a shape popular among Earth worshipers, 15 meters to a side is common. This rectangular style is a carry over from the hill dwelling barbarians and reflects some rustic throwbacks among some of the most conservative families of the city. 

Ah, the classic Pavis, still useful after all these years. They don’t build cities like that anymore.

Thanks, that's not an easy one for an electronic search, no easy unique key phrase to use. One either remembers that or has a lot of digging to do.

Cheers

Edited September 16, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Thanks, that's not an easy one for an electronic search, no easy unique key phrase to use. One either remembers that or has a lot of digging to do.

Cheers

And that's part of the problem. I'm not saying anything new here - all of the stuff in that original post comes from either WBRM or the history of Sartar Greg wrote back in 1981 (which became the CHDP, but was actually written long before). New Pavis is a Sartarite city - and its institutions, architecture, etc are Sartarite. It has some adaptions to being in the River of Cradles - just like Roman colonies in Syria or Britain made adaptations to the local environment. But a Sartarite who comes to New Pavis will find that city surprisingly familiar - even if the landscape, weather, and the animals are not.

[Jeff]

As an aside, all of this helps me keep in mind that New Pavis is Sartarite city. Want to see how Sartarite cities operate and don't want to wait until Boldhome and Jonstown descriptions get published? Look at the Pavis materials for RQ2 or HQG.

New Pavis is also architecturally more Sartarite than folk give credit. The main adaptations the Sartarites made in New Pavis are: 1. the roof is flat so that water can be gathered, instead of thatched or with tilted roofs of tile or wood; and 2. timber is much more expensive in New Pavis so it is not used as much for support except in public and wealthy buildings. But Swenstown and New Pavis probably look a lot like each other except for the roofs.

[Tindalos]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

And that's part of the problem. I'm not saying anything new here - all of the stuff in that original post comes from either WBRM or the history of Sartar Greg wrote back in 1981 (which became the CHDP, but was actually written long before). New Pavis is a Sartarite city - and its institutions, architecture, etc are Sartarite. It has some adaptions to being in the River of Cradles - just like Roman colonies in Syria or Britain made adaptations to the local environment. But a Sartarite who comes to New Pavis will find that city surprisingly familiar - even if the landscape, weather, and the animals are not.

Would the usage of the Jrusteli Pattern be unusual? Or is this something some of Sartar's cities use?

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Tindalos said:

Would the usage of the Jrusteli Pattern be unusual? Or is this something some of Sartar's cities use?

It is something all of Sartar's cities used. It comes from the Holy Country (see Pavis City Guide page 14).

[Jeff]

Other than Sartar himself, only Dorasar and Terasarin managed to found cities. New Pavis in 1550, Alone in 1583. 

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

It is something all of Sartar's cities used. It comes from the Holy Country (see Pavis City Guide page 14).

Ah, I wasn't sure as the maps of Jonstown seem to have the temple district separate from the markets, which page 14 notes as one of the hallmarks. So it's very good to hear clarification on that matter.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Is Sartar's title of "Prince" (instead of, say, High King or the like) due to some Western influence?

[Jeff]

23 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Is Sartar's title of "Prince" (instead of, say, High King or the like) due to some Western influence?

Nope. Just a literal translation of "Princeps" or "First".

[Sir_Godspeed]

Is this considered an innovation in-universe, or did he borrow from previous traditions from somewhere?

(No worries if there isn't a set answer, just wondering if there any "canonical" consideration - given that other titles have been traced back as loans, ie. Archon, Duke, Sultan, Satrap etc.)

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Princeps

O thank the gods for the great Lhankor Mhy library of Wikipedia...

Quote

Princeps (plural: principes) is a Latin word meaning "first in time or order; the first, foremost,[1] chief, the most eminent, distinguished, or noble; the first man, first person".[2] As a title, "princeps" originated in the Roman Republic wherein the leading member of the Senate was designated princeps senatus.[3] It is primarily associated with the Roman emperors as an unofficial title first adopted by Augustus in 23 BC. Its use in this context continued until the reign of Diocletian at the end of the third century. He preferred the title of dominus, meaning "lord" or "master". As a result, the Roman Empire from Augustus to Diocletian is termed the "principate" (principatus) and from Diocletian onwards as the "dominate" (dominatus). Other historians define the reign of Augustus to Severus Alexander as the Principate, and the period afterwards as the "Autocracy".[4]

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[jeffjerwin]

Prince or princeps more or less corresponds to 'head, chief', 'numero uno'.

It tends to imply less rigid systems of authority than king, lord, emperor, etc., and can, as in Machiavelli, mean the head of a republic.

I think this means that Sartar did not adopt a title indicating tribal kingship (he belonged to no tribe), but one implying he was the 'first among the Quivini', the spokesman. So the 'king' implicit in Orlanth rex may be a little different from the word used for prince, or even King of Kerofinela.

Interestingly, in Welsh, we use brenin for king, which means 'consort of Brigantia', the goddess of sovereignty. This seems awfully similar to the ritual status of the consort of the Feathered Horse Queen.

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

Prince or princeps more or less corresponds to 'head, chief', 'numero uno'.

So does in-universe Dar, doesn't it? And, well, "chief" itself, if that term is still used anywhere.

I was mostly looking for in-universe explanations rather than real-world etymology. For example, Belintar is cited as having heavily used Western/Malkioni terminology in his restructuring of Kethaela, with military Dukes and so forth. Ralios retains the title Archon from the Stygian Empire, and the Lunar Empire refers to its constituent regions as satrapies as a result of borrowing Carmanian terminology.

I was wondering if such a process might've occured with "prince", as we don't seem to find many other Orlanthi Heortling "princes" in Kethaela or Kerofinela. (although we probably find some Malkionized Orlanthi/Henotheist princes in Maniria and maybe Ralios and Fronela. There's a Jonatelan principality that comes to mind).

It's not a huge issue either way, I'm just interested if any particular consideration had been given to it.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[scott-martin]

10 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I was wondering if such a process might've occured with "prince", as we don't seem to find many other Orlanthi Heortling "princes" in Kethaela or Kerofinela. (although we probably find some Malkionized Orlanthi/Henotheist princes in Maniria and maybe Ralios and Fronela. There's a Jonatelan principality that comes to mind).

It might be as simple as Sartar being the northeastern limit of the Trader "Princes," the moment they link back up with the Desert Tracker network.

Still a lot we don't know about him.

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

So does in-universe Dar, doesn't it? And, well, "chief" itself, if that term is still used anywhere.

I was mostly looking for in-universe explanations rather than real-world etymology. For example, Belintar is cited as having heavily used Western/Malkioni terminology in his restructuring of Kethaela, with military Dukes and so forth. Ralios retains the title Archon from the Stygian Empire, and the Lunar Empire refers to its constituent regions as satrapies as a result of borrowing Carmanian terminology.

I was wondering if such a process might've occured with "prince", as we don't seem to find many other Orlanthi Heortling "princes" in Kethaela or Kerofinela. (although we probably find some Malkionized Orlanthi/Henotheist princes in Maniria and maybe Ralios and Fronela. There's a Jonatelan principality that comes to mind).

It's not a huge issue either way, I'm just interested if any particular consideration had been given to it.

I have a feeling the title Prince as an innovation comes not from Belintar but from Sartar the Larnsting and it may represent a Heortling word that means 'First', rather than a Western borrowing.

[Joerg]

I have always considered the title "Prince" as the leader of a tribal confederation, whereas the King of Dragon Pass was a whole different beast. Sartar had a dynasty of Princes, two of which (so far) managed to become (Sacred) King of Dragon Pass by marrying the Feathered Horse Queen in a dragonewt-acknowledged contest.

Saronil did marry a priestess of Sorana Tor, too, allowing for a lesser form of "sacred king" than his father, comparable to that of the Twin and Illaro dynasties (see below), but there is no such evidence for Jaronil, Jarosar, Terasarin, Salinarg or Temertain. All of these were Princes at best, not sacred kings.

Harvar Ironfist was Prince of the Aldachuri - this means that the Pelorian Orlanthi who settled Tarsh share that concept. IIRC there were two such princes involved in the Tarsh civil war after Orios' death.

The King of Tarsh received his title originally from the marriage to Sorana Tor. Arim received the title King of Dragon Pass, too. Arim's and Illaro's dynasties up to Pyjeeemsab were Sacred Kings through their marriage to (and descent from) Sorana Tor. So was Palashee. The Lunar Illaro dynasty lost much of that sacred aspect, and was instead justified by descent from Sorana Tor and Hon-eel (and Kana-Telsor, granddaughter of the Red Emperor and Valare Addi).

 

The Hendriki King was the elected leader of a super-tribe - basically a Prince, with special authority due to the status of that super-tribe. Originally, there was an additional requirement for that King to have been trained as a Larnsti, but that dropped out of use around the time the Orlanthi ceased to elect/nominate a High King.

Due to a very watered-down definition of "Larnsti" in certain Hero Wars publications, it was assumed that King Andrin (the Hendriki king resisting Belintar) was a Larnsti king.

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

I have always considered the title "Prince" as the leader of a tribal confederation, whereas the King of Dragon Pass was a whole different beast. Sartar had a dynasty of Princes, two of which (so far) managed to become (Sacred) King of Dragon Pass by marrying the Feathered Horse Queen in a dragonewt-acknowledged contest.

I wonder if in-universe, the same word is used for "King" as in "tribal King", and "King" as in "King of Dragon Pass". It's a linguistic oddity that the Prince of Sartar rules over a slew of (tribal) kings and queens.

[Jeff]

22 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I wonder if in-universe, the same word is used for "King" as in "tribal King", and "King" as in "King of Dragon Pass". It's a linguistic oddity that the Prince of Sartar rules over a slew of (tribal) kings and queens.

So did the Roman Princeps, who ruled over kings, queens, and client republics.

Personally I currently think the Orlanthi have the following words:

Chief: this is the big man of a clan, and also the chief Orlanth priest for the clan. This is used in one version or another in every Theyalan culture.

King: this is the Rex of a tribe. This is the main title of a tribal king in Dragon Pass, Peloria, Ralios, and Fronela. 

King: this is the paramount chief of a tribe. This is used mainly in Heortland, Maniria, and Umathela.

Queen: this is the priestess-leader of an Esrolian city or tribe AND the ranking high priestess of Ernalda.

Prince: this is the "first leader" of a group of tribes or clans. A prince can also be a Rex "over" all the other tribal rexes. 

 

And each is a different word. And to get more complicated, the same word gets used regardless of whether the office holder is male or female (Prince Kallyr, King Leika, etc.), and there is another word that means consort-of-<office>. 

[Grievous]

56 minutes ago, Jeff said:

King: this is the Rex of a tribe. This is the main title of a tribal king in Dragon Pass, Peloria, Ralios, and Fronela. 

King: this is the paramount chief of a tribe. This is used mainly in Heortland, Maniria, and Umathela.

Can I get a little more idea / context on what is the difference here?

[Tindalos]

52 minutes ago, Jeff said:

So did the Roman Princeps, who ruled over kings, queens, and client republics.

Personally I currently think the Orlanthi have the following words:

Chief: this is the big man of a clan, and also the chief Orlanth priest for the clan. This is used in one version or another in every Theyalan culture.

King: this is the Rex of a tribe. This is the main title of a tribal king in Dragon Pass, Peloria, Ralios, and Fronela. 

King: this is the paramount chief of a tribe. This is used mainly in Heortland, Maniria, and Umathela.

Queen: this is the priestess-leader of an Esrolian city or tribe AND the ranking high priestess of Ernalda.

Prince: this is the "first leader" of a group of tribes or clans. A prince can also be a Rex "over" all the other tribal rexes. 

 

And each is a different word. And to get more complicated, the same word gets used regardless of whether the office holder is male or female (Prince Kallyr, King Leika, etc.), and there is another word that means consort-of-<office>. 

Ah, so the same as here?

Wonderful! Especially with the addition of the First Leader, thank you!

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I wonder if in-universe, the same word is used for "King" as in "tribal King", and "King" as in "King of Dragon Pass". It's a linguistic oddity that the Prince of Sartar rules over a slew of (tribal) kings and queens.

That's why I talk semi-jokingly about the cult of Orlanth regulus (little rex).

Yes, in my opinion, the "King of Tarsh" is a different word from "The King of the Colymar", probably a different stem. One is a "sacred king" or "king of tribal kings", the other is a "tribal king" or "king of chiefs".

All of these kings are priests, and so are the mayors of the city - they are (or can appoint) the priest of the wyter. While not unelected, they probably can revoke a third party's priesthood of the wyter, too (although holding the wyter object will be a strong counter-argument against the elected king or mayor, leading to strife).

 

The city confederations and city government add a weird republican level to Sartar. The mayor presides a ring which has the (deputies of) the confederated tribal kings, (a selection of) (deputies of) the leaders of major temples of the city, and a selection of (deputies of) guild leaders (if there are too many to have a delegate each). (Deputy, or lieutenant, or steward, or Pfalzgraf (count palatine), or...)

 

Normally, the clan chief is the chief priest of the clan wyter, and hence "of the temple" as per Jeff's recent economy example explaining the role of the semi-free people in the clan.

Personally, I tend to think of these tenants more as "people with an outstanding obligation" rather than as "people without the freedom of doing what they want", and that is a different kind of semi-free as in the Dara Happan stratum as far as I can see.

There is a problem with the Orlanthi property laws, though. This is an intra-clan obligation, not a matter for lawspeaking. Theoretically, the chief and his ring have the power to decide which household has such an obligation and which doesn't, and a household can be demoted to tenant status at the (considered) whim of the chief unless there is so strong popular opposition that the office of the chief gets challenged for.

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There is a problem with the Orlanthi property laws, though. This is an intra-clan obligation, not a matter for lawspeaking. Theoretically, the chief and his ring have the power to decide which household has such an obligation and which doesn't, and a household can be demoted to tenant status at the (considered) whim of the chief unless there is so strong popular opposition that the office of the chief gets challenged for.

Something like this (although on a tribal/international level) is how the Halhgrim /Hakon the Swimmer feud started, with the king arbitrarily handing over lands that traditionally belonged to Hahlgrim's family.  

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

Ah, so the same as here?

Wonderful! Especially with the addition of the First Leader, thank you!

Yep, here's what Tindalos is referring to:

And if we wanted a purely Gloranthan set of titles, we can guess that the Orlanthi use the following (I am not sure whether Theyalan language is gendered or not, so am just using "man" as the default for person even though that is probably incorrect):

Free man - this is a full member of the community, male or female. These households do not need to serve someone else to survive.

Unfree man - this is someone who needs to serve someone else to survive.

Horse man - this is a member of the martial aristocracy, who is given land and/or livestock by others so that they might be full-time professional warriors.

House man or hall man - this is a personal bodyguard of a high status person. I increasingly use "palace" instead of "hall" but the terms are basically synonymous. "Big House" might be best.

God-talker - this is somebody who serves as a part-time holy person. They speak "to" the gods.

God-voice - this is somebody who serves as a full-time holy person.  They speak "for" the gods.

Wyter-voice - this is the leader of a clan or kinship group. Also called Chief God Voice for the kinship group.

War Lord - this the tribal ruler. 

Earth queen - this is the high priestess of the Ernalda cult.

Storm King's voice - this is the tribal ruler of the Rex subcult. 

And so on. Some of these terms were around since the Dawn or even the God Time (free, unfree, god-talker, god-voice, war lord), others are later developments (horse man, hall man, Storm King's voice, etc

[Jeff]

As an aside, the chieftain can't just go willy-nilly reassigning clan land. He needs to get the sign-off from his Inner Ring, and if anyone complains, he needs the Outer Ring to consent to it as well.

Tribal level is different - a Rex king has a lot more tools to get things done his way. He can reassign a clan's lands (which is what happened to Hahlgrim) and if an assembly is needed, it is easier for the king to get his way. Command Priest, for example, is a great spell to force a chief to back down. A tribal king has more resources, more supporters, etc.

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Grievous said:

Can I get a little more idea / context on what is the difference here?

At the risk of gross simplification:

An Orlanth Rex needs to be acclaimed by the priests of the tribe, but once acclaimed he has a LOT of power over them. That's Alakoring's magic. You better select the best person for the job, because once he is there, he has the power to compel. Sartar - surprise surprise - was Orlanth Rex, and so are his heirs (including Argrath). You agree to make Tarkalor Prince, and he has the power to give Yelmalio land and let the Yelmalio cultists form their own tribe. 

A non.-Rex king is just the paramount chief. The chiefs agree that Big Chief gets to be king. But Big Chief is just that - a big chief. The priests can oppose him and even bring him down. Same with the chiefs. The chiefs and priests have the real power, not the king. This was the situation in the First and Second Age.