Leaving a Cult

[Brootse]

From RQG: The Spirit of Reprisal (sometimes called a Spirit of Retribution) is a common feature to most cults. This is a spirit, monster, or curse, which falls upon initiates who quit the worship of their deity, or upon God-talkers, Rune Lords, or Rune Priests who offend their deity by violating major cult rules. The deity, without excuses, is striking out at those who deny it.

That's quite clear-cut, but I'd like to ask how other people have handled leaving cults. Iirc in RQ3 the spirits of reprisal were on the table only if you committed sacrilegious acts. So if someone is eg. taken a prisoner and miss a Holy day worship because of it, would the spirits attack them in your Glorantha? What if they are wearing slave bracelets?

[PhilHibbs]

4 minutes ago, Brootse said:

.. who offend their deity by violating major cult rules... 

So if someone is eg. taken a prisoner and miss a Holy day worship because of it, would the spirits attack them in your Glorantha?

Not a "major cult rule". Sure, we say simple things like "you have to attend major worship ceremonies", but the actual rules in the world are more subtle than that. Like Kosher rules, there's an exemption that you can eat what you need to eat to survive.

[Akhôrahil]

40 minutes ago, Brootse said:

From RQG: The Spirit of Reprisal (sometimes called a Spirit of Retribution) is a common feature to most cults. This is a spirit, monster, or curse, which falls upon initiates who quit the worship of their deity, or upon God-talkers, Rune Lords, or Rune Priests who offend their deity by violating major cult rules. The deity, without excuses, is striking out at those who deny it.

That's quite clear-cut, but I'd like to ask how other people have handled leaving cults. Iirc in RQ3 the spirits of reprisal were on the table only if you committed sacrilegious acts. So if someone is eg. taken a prisoner and miss a Holy day worship because of it, would the spirits attack them in your Glorantha? What if they are wearing slave bracelets?

I would restrict Agent of Reprisal attacks to people who leave in poor order (apart from actual sacrileges and spreading of cult secrets, naturally). There are plenty of ways for many cults to leave your cult in good standing. Moving to Chalana Arroy or Humakt after Relife Sickness, proceeding to Asrelia from Ernalda for a grandmother, and so on, and so on.

It also seems likely that there are cults who can shield you against Agent of Reprisal attacks if you hurry up and join them. I imagine you get it if you switch from Humakt to Yanafal Tarnils, for instance.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

11 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It also seems likely that there are cults who can shield you against Agent of Reprisal attacks if you hurry up and join them. I imagine you get it if you switch from Humakt to Yanafal Tarnils, for instance.

Sure, it says that on the leaflet...

[Brootse]

32 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Not a "major cult rule". Sure, we say simple things like "you have to attend major worship ceremonies", but the actual rules in the world are more subtle than that. Like Kosher rules, there's an exemption that you can eat what you need to eat to survive.

 

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I would restrict Agent of Reprisal attacks to people who leave in poor order. There are plenty of ways for many cults to leave your cult in good standing. Moving to Chalana Arroy or Humakt after Relife Sickness, proceeding to Asrelia from Ernalda for a grandmother, and so on, and so on.

The following passage says that "These spirits do not come into action when initiates transfer to an associate cult.", so the Voria->Ernalda->Asrelia cycle (or turning into the Dark side of the Earth) is allowed. But other than that the sentence "The deity, without excuses, is striking out at those who deny it."  doesn't seem to leave much wriggle room. I've allowed Storm gods' worshippers convert into Humakt without Spirits of Reprisal attacks, because the initiation severs all previous connections. And also so far I've followed the RQ3 rules which turns characters into inactive initiates if they fail to attend worship ceremonies, but inactive initiates don't seem to exist anymore, unless the new Cult books allows them.

[Akhôrahil]

5 minutes ago, Brootse said:

The following passage says that "These spirits do not come into action when initiates transfer to an associate cult.", so the Voria->Ernalda->Asrelia cycle (or turning into the Dark side of the Earth) is allowed. But other than that the sentence "The deity, without excuses, is striking out at those who deny it."  doesn't seem to leave much wriggle room. I've allowed Storm gods' worshippers convert into Humakt without Spirits of Reprisal attacks, because the initiation severs all previous connections. And also so far I've followed the RQ3 rules which turns characters into inactive initiates if they fail to attend worship ceremonies, but inactive initiates don't seem to exist anymore, unless the new Cult books allows them.

Failing to worship will mean that you don't regain Rune Points now, making you "inactive" in a fashion there.

And I mean, it seems patently ridiculous that some elderly initiate who can't get out of bed due to sickness will also get slammed by the Spirit of Reprisal for missing worship. Essentially all real-world religions have built-in tolerances for that kind of thing.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Ian Absentia]

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Like Kosher rules, there's an exemption that you can eat what you need to eat to survive.

Depending on who you talk to.  But that's a topic for another thread in another forum.

!i!

[Qizilbashwoman]

7 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

Depending on who you talk to.  But that's a topic for another thread in another forum.

!i!

there's no rabbi (or imam) who will say you can't eat what you need to survive, just as you can take medicines with alcohol as a Muslim

source: I'm a Muslim (and I speak Yiddish)

[Ian Absentia]

25 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

source: I'm a Muslim (and I speak Yiddish)

Halal isn't Kashrut. Yiddish isn't Hebrew. But that's a topic for another another thread in another forum.

These digressions, however, might prove instructive regarding assumptions of generic or monolithic response from spirits of reprisal.

!i!

Edited September 18, 2019 by Ian Absentia

[PhilHibbs]

4 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

These digressions, however, might prove instructive regarding assumptions of generic or monolithic response from spirits of reprisal.

Indeed, there may be cults whose SoR are more legalistic and rulebound than others.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Indeed, there may be cults whose SoR are more legalistic and rulebound than others.

True. I would think that Krasht would not care if you were so sick you couldn’t get out of bed for an evil mass.

[Bill the barbarian]

54 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

True. I would think that Krasht would not care if you were so sick you couldn’t get out of bed for an evil mass.

Although, that could make a great oneway Bob Newhart skit...

"Uh hello... um, yes... great Krasht, yeah, Bob here... So... How are the kids?"

[Brootse]

Found this from Divination chapter: "A deity cannot invade anyone’s mind; though it knows when a worshiper has lost faith."

So if a worshipper has stopped worshipping for some reason, the gods may not send their goons if they deem that the worshipper hasn't lost their faith.

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Found this from Divination chapter: "A deity cannot invade anyone’s mind; though it knows when a worshiper has lost faith."

So if a worshipper has stopped worshipping for some reason, the gods may not send their goons if they deem that the worshipper hasn't lost their faith.

That’s super weird. Hardly any Gloranthan gods care about your faith. If you make your sacrifices, do your worship, and adhere to cult restrictions, what else could they want from you? The idea of Orlanth smiting you with a thunderbolt because of insufficiently strong faith in him is preposterous!

Edited September 18, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Bill the barbarian]

18 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

That’s super weird. Hardly any Gloranthan gods care about your faith. If you make your sacrifices, do your worship, and adhere to cult restrictions, what else could they want from you? The idea of Orlanth smiting you with a thunderbolt because of insufficiently strong faith in him is preposterous!

That very much sounds like a Hellenic ideal, The uncaring gods that simply with to be left alone to watch the boob tube (humanity) at work and play. Get their worship and a little dinner with entertainment all while keeping an eye on the trickster to make sure he doesn’t fuck with the order and Bob’s your uncle.

Seeing as the worship and the cults pf Glorantha seem to be of a more asiatic bent, and seeing as the best one can be is by acting like one's gods including repeating their acts in god time a few times a year and become like them by ritual and magic castings you know the mortals have much more invested than that or their greek counterparts. I  think there might be a little more invested by  the gods as well. No proof, but wow that would be even more cynical than the greek gods to expect all that but really not care one way or the other so long as you get paid..

Cheers

[Ian Absentia]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

The idea of Orlanth smiting you with a thunderbolt because of insufficiently strong faith in him is preposterous!

It may depend upon the eminence of the servant and of the degree of the fall from faith and/or grace.  The higher the profile and the greater the fall, the more notice it will gain and the more severe the response.  Orlanth has been known to be awfully petty on occasion.

!i!

Edited September 18, 2019 by Ian Absentia
The nail that stands out gets the hammer!

[Akhôrahil]

I mean sure, you need to emulate your god for maximum access to magic and such, but the punishment for doing a bad job of it is bad access to magic, and that doesn’t even require any active action on behalf of the deity. 

And they require you to behave properly, but... there are very few gods in Glorantha I could imagine going “you’re doing everything you’re supposed to be doing, but I can tell you’re having insufficient faith anyway, so sorry!” That seems an extremely Lutheran position.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

I mean sure, you need to emulate your god for maximum access to magic and such, but the punishment for doing a bad job of it is bad access to magic, and that doesn’t even require any active action on behalf of the deity. 

 

Actually the penalty for not worshipping well or having enough faith seems to be the loss of ones home, family, clan tribe, nation or life, judging by the denominational  differences and lack of faith evidenced in the past disputes and anticipated by the hero wars on the lozenge. Thems that  refuse to live by the traditions of their peoples  (even Orlanthi’s have a tradition: change) might well cause the downfall of their world spiritually or physically. 

Cheers

[Ian Absentia]

40 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

...there are very few gods in Glorantha I could imagine going “you’re doing everything you’re supposed to be doing, but I can tell you’re having insufficient faith anyway, so sorry!” That seems an extremely Lutheran position.

Really?  I'm all tee'd up for that sort of thing when it comes to dealing with the divine...

Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind:
     "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Gird up your loins like a man,
      I will question you,and you shall declare to me.

"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
      Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined the measurements -- surely you know!
      Or who stretched the line upon it?"

...etc., etc., as the Lord God goes on ad nauseum to say unto Job, "Who are you?  You don't know my story!"  I should think that in Glorantha, like in the original Testament, where the gods have more regular and consequential interaction with the earthly plane, they'll have more opportunity for individual responses to declarations and exhibitions of faith.  Sure, you may be doing everything everything you're supposed to be doing, but now that you have my attention, are you doing it well enough?  As a lowly worshipper with a lot on the line and variety of gods to cleave to, it might behoove one to shop around for an amenable source of magic.

!i!

Edited September 18, 2019 by Ian Absentia

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Ian Absentia said:

Really?  I'm all tee'd up for that sort of thing when it comes to dealing with the divine...

 

Yeah, that’s it. I‘m, arguing for more story, less mechanics. I mean, leave the mechanics (this is RQ not HQ after all but.,) in place but can we have a little more thunder and lighting with our storm. 

14 hours ago, Brootse said:

That's quite clear-cut, but I'd like to ask how other people have handled leaving cults. Iirc in RQ3 the spirits of reprisal were on the table only if you committed sacrilegious acts. So if someone is eg. taken a prisoner and miss a Holy day worship because of it, would the spirits attack them in your Glorantha? What if they are wearing slave bracelets?

I love the idea of having the crime fit the cult. I would love to see what a Eurmali would have to do to transgress (poor Eurmali, the mind boggles*). Krasht or Danfive (a name I have not seen mentioned on the boards for a long... have I ever seen Danfive Xaron mentioned here about? Death for coughing at the wrong time in ceremony for one, horrible torture for the other. you can guess at your leisure which is which. Thrown out for an infraction from Geos by the Bouncer or plagued by impests ((orlanthi fleas: leading to the insult "may the impests of a thousand curses inhabit your nethers"...) for being behind in your tithes.

3 hours ago, Brootse said:

Found this from Divination chapter: "A deity cannot invade anyone’s mind; though it knows when a worshiper has lost faith."

 

Love this, and has long been a trope, the deity can invade some deep parts of the mind (faith, what does this even mean in Glorantha) but not others (much of everything else).

* Grognard moment, did you know that Boggles were invented/made/dreamed up by Ratslaff, as best I can tell as a joke? Anyway... to continue... Akkkk!

(guy with a hooked cane dressed in 20’s vaudeville clothing standing off to the side)

 Yoink!

Cheers

Edited September 18, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

There are known instances of Orlanth smiting his heroes with the Liberating Bolt in Heortling Mythology, causing lethal damage in all cases but two or three. However, these are instances of the hero challenging the deity directly. For infractions and severe lapses, there are spirits of reprisal, starting with impests.

6 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Grognard moment, did you know that Boggles were invented/made/dreamed up by Ratslaff, as best I can tell as a joke?

Their description says "cosmic farts," leaving little doubt about the method of their creation.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

There are known instances of Orlanth smiting his heroes with the Liberating Bolt in Heortling Mythology, causing lethal damage in all cases but two or three. However, these are instances of the hero challenging the deity directly.

The gods taking poorly to challenges and hubris, that only makes sense.

[Brootse]

8 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Yeah, that’s it. I‘m, arguing for more story, less mechanics. I mean, leave the mechanics (this is RQ not HQ after all but.,) in place but can we have a little more thunder and lighting with our storm. 

I love the idea of having the crime fit the cult. I would love to see what a Eurmali would have to do to transgress (poor Eurmali, the mind boggles*). Krasht or Danfive (a name I have not seen mentioned on the boards for a long... have I ever seen Danfive Xaron mentioned here about? Death for coughing at the wrong time in ceremony for one, horrible torture for the other. you can guess at your leisure which is which. Thrown out for an infraction from Geos by the Bouncer or plagued by impests ((orlanthi fleas: leading to the insult "may the impests of a thousand curses inhabit your nethers"...) for being behind in your tithes.

Love this, and has long been a trope, the deity can invade some deep parts of the mind (faith, what does this even mean in Glorantha) but not others (much of everything else).

* Grognard moment, did you know that Boggles were invented/made/dreamed up by Ratslaff, as best I can tell as a joke? Anyway... to continue... Akkkk!

(guy with a hooked cane dressed in 20’s vaudeville clothing standing off to the side)

 Yoink!

Cheers

I used to have a system that I took from Stormbringer, where characters got piety points for doing stuff that pleased their gods. And these points were used for Divine interventions and other stuff, eg. if an initiate got 100 piety points he got an allied spirit. But getting that many points required returning an artefact or killing a shitload of enemies. Lately I removed the system since I thought that it didn't really belong into Glorantha where the Great Compromise restrict what the gods can do in mortal plane.

[davecake]

If you read a whole bunch of long form (eg RQ2 style, which will also be in the new GoG when it is published) cult descriptions it will become very apparent that different cults differ *dramatically* in Spirits of Retribution.

At one end you have Daka Fal - leave the cult, and the official punishment is 'the gods protection from death will be removed', which in reality amounts to your shaman will mumble in a vaguely menacing way with no practical consequences of any significant kind beyond being able to renew your magic. 

At the other end you have gods like Orlanth or Yelm, you have multiple different kinds of Spirit of Retribution, some of which punish even very mild infractions but in a very mild way , but in a fairly mild way (the Impests give you a rash or a cough etc), but some may be very dangerous monsters that attack you at a terrible time (the Wind Fists will appear and beat you senseless when you are already in combat, but only for genuinely terrible crimes like murder). 

Storm Bull has quite a dangerous spirit of reprisal, but it is also implied that he doesn't necessarily visit those who simply leave the cult, only those who actively counter its ethos by leniency towards Chaos. It's implied that if someone leaves Storm Bull for another chaos hating cult, they might escape with retribution. 

Sometimes it may be dangerous, but you can arrange it in a neat formal manner (eg inform your priest in advance and face them at a time of your choosing), some may keep pursuing you for life. 

Some cults have a very specific and large set of rules, maybe with different Spirits of Retribution (Yelm has many specific furies, for example) but some it may by very much to do with the personal relationship with the cult hierarchy. 

Sometimes it may be left up to the worshippers to enforce, and that varies greatly. This is normally the case with Cacodemon, for example, but as his worshippers are generally ruthless murderers expert in ambush, that is pretty nasty. But with a City God it may have no consequences whatsoever that can't easily be avoided by leaving town. 

Sometimes the spirit of retribution is just withdrawal of the cults benefits. 

Basically, I highly recommend grabbing a bunch of long cult writeups and comparing the Spirits of Retribution, and you will end up with a good sense of the wide range of variety and attitudes, and how it reflects the cult and its magical power.

I think this extends to the 'correct behaviour' vs 'faith' argument too. Though the way Illumination works does tend to imply that the Gods do not necessarily know the actions of their worshippers, only their inner relationship with their god (the worshippers, of course, conversely may notice the actions but not know the inner truth).