Humakt cult and Loyalty

[styopa]

Good question came up among my group the other day: shouldn't Swords of Humakt pretty much delete all their Loyalty() and Passion() for anything that's not Humakt-related?  Particularly Loyalty(Clan) or Passion(Family, etc)?  Not sure how this would impact initiates, but certainly if they want to be good Humakti, they certainly shouldn't be using those things.

Cult writeup in RQG doesn't mention it, but lorewise it's pretty clear that Humakti connections to hearth, home, and clan are cut.  They're ritually dead to their kin and clan ties are severed.

[Joerg]

A Humakti wishing to eat regularly will have to enter a relationship relying on his loyalty with his employer which may be a regiment leader taking a mercernary contract, or it could be a noble engaging him as a bodyguard and companion.

[Ian Absentia]

30 minutes ago, styopa said:

Cult writeup in RQG doesn't mention it, but lorewise it's pretty clear that Humakti connections to hearth, home, and clan are cut.  They're ritually dead to their kin and clan ties are severed.

I'm pretty sure this issue regarding Humakti has been addressed elsewhere recently.  Upon initiating, one's existing ties are severed, but out of necessity they may form new ties, including to former hearth, home, and clan.  They'll be different ties, though, approached via the new Humakti perspective.  So you're right that Loyalties and Passions will all relate to Humakt, either directly or indirectly, but Humakt still has a vested interest in one's daily life.

!i!

[Brootse]

24 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

I'm pretty sure this issue regarding Humakti has been addressed elsewhere recently.  Upon initiating, one's existing ties are severed, but out of necessity they may form new ties, including to former hearth, home, and clan.  They'll be different ties, though, approached via the new Humakti perspective.  So you're right that Loyalties and Passions will all relate to Humakt, either directly or indirectly, but Humakt still has a vested interest in one's daily life.

!i!

That sounds like a good way to handle it. Another would be to give Humaktis Loyalty (Employer).

[styopa]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

A Humakti wishing to eat regularly will have to enter a relationship relying on his loyalty with his employer which may be a regiment leader taking a mercernary contract, or it could be a noble engaging him as a bodyguard and companion.

Last time I checked, for most people Loyalty(employer) wasn't a necessity to get a paycheck.  Just do the job.  

I don't see the passions such as loyalty appropriate to be applied in the context of such ephemeral stuff as short/medium term employment.  Sure, eventually.  But that's sort of the difference between "job" and "career" ain't it?  Or are you really giving players the ability to popup a new loyalty/passion that easily?

[styopa]

1 hour ago, Ian Absentia said:

I'm pretty sure this issue regarding Humakti has been addressed elsewhere recently.  Upon initiating, one's existing ties are severed, but out of necessity they may form new ties, including to former hearth, home, and clan.  They'll be different ties, though, approached via the new Humakti perspective.  So you're right that Loyalties and Passions will all relate to Humakt, either directly or indirectly, but Humakt still has a vested interest in one's daily life.

!i!

My point (and the question when it was posed in our group) was SPECIFICALLY in regards kinship ties.  

And you addressed my point - upon initiating those ties would be severed (or would they just be massively reduced for initiates, and cut completely for RLs?), but nothing in my question was about forbidding them gaining them later in other contexts.

Just saying that is a pretty big omission in the cult writeup - "by the way, if you choose this cult, you can disregard all those ties to anything not the cult in pre-gen".

[Ian Absentia]

14 minutes ago, styopa said:

Just saying that is a pretty big omission in the cult writeup - "by the way, if you choose this cult, you can disregard all those ties to anything not the cult in pre-gen".

Oh.  So this was actually the point you wanted to make from the outset.  You should've led with that and spared the trouble of inviting responses.

!i!

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, styopa said:

Last time I checked, for most people Loyalty(employer) wasn't a necessity to get a paycheck.  Just do the job.  

While that may be true for the tenant tending to your orchard, you want a little more loyalty from the person you trust to intercept incoming lethal intent.

7 hours ago, styopa said:

I don't see the passions such as loyalty appropriate to be applied in the context of such ephemeral stuff as short/medium term employment.  Sure, eventually.  But that's sort of the difference between "job" and "career" ain't it?  Or are you really giving players the ability to popup a new loyalty/passion that easily?

I was talking about Bronze Age leaders and body guards. Your caravan guard between two oases in Prax is a different proposal than the guy you let into your household and take along to highest level diplomacy.

Basically, a warrior without a patron has no means of survival other than mercenary or banditry. Mercenary jobs may be far in between. Obtaining a patron means regular meals, access to decent dress and equipment. It is a big deal, and usually rewarded with a loyalty passion.

[Brootse]

And you can even get a Loyalty passion for your long time trainer.

[davecake]

I think the idea that a Hunakti should lose all loyalties etc that conflict with the Humakti ideal is the wrong approach. 

Passions that conflict with ones Loyalties or religious virtue isn't something that should never happen in the rules - rather it is an excellent roleplaying opportunity. A hero whose passions conflict is what tragedy is made of. 

I don't think a Humakti will have Loyalty to casual or short term employers, or even necessarily long term ones. But they will be Honorable, and Honor demands that they respect any loyalty oath they will have given. Except when the story says otherwise! At just what point can you decide that your employers conversion to the Lunar Way makes your oath of loyalty less important?

 

[Minlister]

@styopa

there is also a ritual to reinstate kin ties for Humakti called the Resheathing (should be in Storm tribes, p. 92 and Thunder rebels, p. 215).

We discussed a similar issue in another thread on the Glorantha forum, search for "Severe Severing" 

Hope it helps!

[styopa]

18 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Oh.  So this was actually the point you wanted to make from the outset.  You should've led with that and spared the trouble of inviting responses.

!i!

And what sort of interesting thread discussion would that generate? (shrug)

If I can't start a thread that makes it at least to 2 pages, why would I bother posting?

[Ian Absentia]

2 hours ago, styopa said:

And what sort of interesting thread discussion would that generate? (shrug)

If I can't start a thread that makes it at least to 2 pages, why would I bother posting?

Then logic would dictate that you wait until at least p.2 of the thread before revealing your actual MO of critiquing the production values.  But I'm glad to see that someone turned you on to the Severe Severing thread.

!i!