Spirit Combat and Weapons/Spells

[Blacktoad]

Quick question... can someone engaged in Spirit Combat with a spirit also make an attack with an enchanted weapon in the same round? (i.e. A player is attacked and engaged in Spirit Combat. Can they attack with an enchanted iron dagger in SR 5 then also resolve that rounds spirit combat in SR 12?)

[Akhôrahil]

10 minutes ago, Blacktoad said:

Quick question... can someone engaged in Spirit Combat with a spirit also make an attack with an enchanted weapon in the same round? (i.e. A player is attacked and engaged in Spirit Combat. Can they attack with an enchanted iron dagger in SR 5 then also resolve that rounds spirit combat in SR 12?)

This is a weirdly formulated rule, but since Spirit Combat does not follow the regular attack/defend format but instead compares level of success each turn, it's hard to maker an interpretation where you wouldn't get to make a weapon attack as well.

An unsupported but perhaps reasonable ruling would be that if you attack with a weapon, you cannot also damage the opponent in regular Spirit Combat (so that if you win the Spirit Combat rolls, it only means that you don't take damage). Otherwise, the combination of full spirit combat and magical weapon attack is a huge bonus to the PC side.

[HreshtIronBorne]

When we played most recently we were using weapon attack as a sort of alternative to a player using their spirit combat when engaged by an enemy spirit. Like, the humakti would roll his sword skill versus the spirit's spirit combat skill in the opposed roll. Then if the weapon skill was the winner they would do damage according to the rules on page 368/369 of the RQ:G core rules. The Humakti in question could do 4d8 with a True Iron Greatsword, better than 1d6+1. Lol.

[Akhôrahil]

16 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

When we played most recently we were using weapon attack as a sort of alternative to a player using their spirit combat when engaged by an enemy spirit. Like, the humakti would roll his sword skill versus the spirit's spirit combat skill in the opposed roll. Then if the weapon skill was the winner they would do damage according to the rules on page 368/369 of the RQ:G core rules. The Humakti in question could do 4d8 with a True Iron Greatsword, better than 1d6+1. Lol.

That's actually a really nice way of doing it, but I wonder if it doesn't make things too easy. Most non-Shamans being a bit iffy on the Spirit Combat side is part of what makes Shamans important. If you can just bring in a Humakti instead to slice and dice the spirit better than any shaman could... 

[Qizilbashwoman]

Yeah that... doesn't seem correct. I mean, Iron is good but a Humakti would be a god-killer with that kind of skill...

[HreshtIronBorne]

Our shaman was still WAY better at spirit combat at handling spirits then the humakti ever could be. The shaman was practically immune to most low to mid level spirits because of his spirit armor and spells maintained. The humakti could EASILY be 1shot by a tough spirit rolling well, Gods forbid a special or crit. Definitely leave it to the shaman. 

[davecake]

It does mean a warrior with an Iron weapon is very effective at spirit combat, and that is a big change to Glorantha. But not only do shamans have much better defences, a spirit can retreat from a warrior pretty trivially, and there isn't much you can do about it. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

I mean it makes sense that Iron should gank things; that's kind of the point of Iron. The only question is if it's working as intended, if it's balanced.

 

[g33k]

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I mean it makes sense that Iron should gank things; that's kind of the point of Iron. The only question is if it's working as intended, if it's balanced.

Well, but Iron was a Mostali invention to gank the Elves and Trolls.  It does no special extra damage to humans, or Durulz, or Centaurs, or ...  

It also has some anti-magic properties, but that's not AFAIK anti-spirit properties or Anti-Otherworld properties.

 

[Akhôrahil]

21 minutes ago, g33k said:

Well, but Iron was a Mostali invention to gank the Elves and Trolls.  It does no special extra damage to humans, or Durulz, or Centaurs, or ...  

It also has some anti-magic properties, but that's not AFAIK anti-spirit properties or Anti-Otherworld properties.

 

It’s the Enchantment that matters, not the Iron.

[Bill the barbarian]

25 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It’s the Enchantment that matters, not the Iron.

not so, non-enchanted iron will effect magic, trolls and elves negatively.

[Akhôrahil]

8 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

not so, non-enchanted iron will effect magic, trolls and elves negatively.

I meant about the spirits.

[Bill the barbarian]

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

I meant about the spirits.

Ah, thanks.

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

The only question is if it's working as intended, if it's bxxxxxxd.

We don't use the "b" word around here.

[David Scott]

15 hours ago, Blacktoad said:

Quick question... can someone engaged in Spirit Combat with a spirit also make an attack with an enchanted weapon in the same round? (i.e. A player is attacked and engaged in Spirit Combat.

It's covered on page 366:

Quote

Once a corporeal being is engaged in spirit combat, they may not attempt any skill or engage in physical melee combat with a separate physical melee target without first succeeding at an intelligence check (normally INT×5, but the gamemaster may adjust that up or down, as desired). They may choose to attack the spirit attacking them using enchanted weapons (see below) without succeeding at a concentration check.

Yes, as long as the adventurer is using an enchanted weapon no concentration roll is required.

Quote

Can they attack with an enchanted iron dagger in SR 5 then also resolve that rounds spirit combat in SR 12?)

Enchanted weapons in spirit combat are covered on page 369

Quote

Enchanted weapons (such as enchanted iron or other Rune metals) do normal damage, but gain no damage bonus from STR+SIZ.

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by David Scott

[David Scott]

8 hours ago, davecake said:

It does mean a warrior with an Iron weapon is very effective at spirit combat, and that is a big change to Glorantha. But not only do shamans have much better defences, a spirit can retreat from a warrior pretty trivially, and there isn't much you can do about it. 

This is an important point. However it's counteracted by using multiple spirits - page 366.

Quote

Any number of discorporate spirits may attack a single entity at a time. They take up no amount of space in the Middle World. 

15 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

The Humakti in question could do 4d8 with a True Iron Greatsword

The results are likely to be very simple in this case:

Humakti Wins, if the spirit survives it breaks off combat.

Spirit wins, Humakti looses MP. spirit breaks off combat.

Critical tie, both take damage (On a critical success, the spirit damage is rolled twice, and bypasses any spiritual armor.) both loose a lot of MPs, the Humakti also takes a couple of points of physical damage, if the spirit survives it breaks off combat.

Normal ties do nothing, but if faced with a Greatsword, the spirit breaks off combat.

Humakti Fumble - the Humakti is in big trouble, the Spirit Combat Fumble table is bad news.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Humakti Fumble - the Humakti is in big trouble, the Spirit Combat Fumble table is bad news.

You think a fumble with a weapon use the Spirit Combat fumble table? Interesting. I suppose it is "in spirit combat", and the attack is opposed by a Spirit Combat skill. The question had not occurred to me before now.

Edited September 24, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

We don't use the "b" word around here.

I meant it contextually, you little munchkin

[g33k]

43 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I meant it contextually, you little munchkin

<ahem>

Point of order, ma'am?

I believe the esteemed Mr. Hibbs is a great big munchkin.

 

 

Carry on.

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

<ahem>

Point of order, ma'am?

I believe the esteemed Mr. Hibbs is a great big munchkin.

um

excuse me councillor, I believe you missed a key  word; egregious!

[gochie]

Honestly, the magic-weapon-damaging-spirits-thing is HEAVILY broken. Runelords can easily wreck any spirit or ghost with an enchanted weapon, especially with True (weapon).

I really don't think spirits should have to become visible to attack.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, gochie said:

Honestly, the magic-weapon-damaging-spirits-thing is HEAVILY broken. Runelords can easily wreck any spirit or ghost with an enchanted weapon, especially with True (weapon).

I really don't think spirits should have to become visible to attack.

I like a Humakti being able to cut down ghosts, but it should be far more particular to the spirit than it currently is.

[soltakss]

On 9/29/2019 at 2:10 PM, gochie said:

Honestly, the magic-weapon-damaging-spirits-thing is HEAVILY broken. Runelords can easily wreck any spirit or ghost with an enchanted weapon, especially with True (weapon).

I really don't think spirits should have to become visible to attack.

In RQ2, Spirits were deadly, Rune lords with low POW afrer DI would run away screaming from a Spirit, as reaching POW=0 meant that you died.

In RQ3, they were less so, as reaching MP=0 meant you went unconscious. They were still dangerous, as they could knock out a low-POW Rune Lord.

in RQG, you just cast a good spell and slash away at it until it disappears. Nowhere near as deadly, or exciting, in my opinion.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

in RQG, you just cast a good spell and slash away at it until it disappears. Nowhere near as deadly, or exciting, in my opinion.

That can take much longer than you have rounds available if the spirit has high Spirit Combat.  Fireblade, yes, potentially quite effective. Bladesharp 2, not so much.

Personally, I've found RQG much more fun with Spirit Combat than before.  In RQ2 or RQ3, encountering a spirit likely spelled someone's doom or possession. Now you've got a chance to fight.  A tough fight, but one you have the possibility of success in.

Edited October 3, 2019 by jajagappa

[g33k]

15 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

That can take much longer than you have rounds available if the spirit has high Spirit Combat.  Fireblade, yes, potentially quite effective. Bladesharp 2, not so much.

Personally, I've found RQG much more fun with Spirit Combat than before.  In RQ2 or RQ3, encountering a spirit likely spelled someone's doom or possession. Now you've got a chance to fight.  A tough fight, but one you have the possibility of success in.

And, as is so common with RQ -- numbers will count.

Your badass Sword of Humakt may be able to face down some POW=35 terror from the Spirit World... and even win... (!)

But are you including the 4 POW=25 attendant spirits... or the TWENTY "ordinary-follower" spirits, 5 each with POW=9, POW=11, POW=13, POW=15 ?

All of them surrounding the Sword (and the rest of the party) casting from overhead or otherwise out of range, attacking enmasse, etc...

Or does that look closer to a TPK?