New version

[Bill the barbarian]

7 hours ago, lawrence.whitaker said:

Affinity Publisher. New, and still has some issues, but its serviceable and inexpensive; and they are actively working to fix the issues, and add more features.

In addition, it  has sister apps for photos and vector drawing.

9 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Affinity Publisher. New, and still has some issues, but its serviceable and inexpensive; and they are actively working to fix the issues, and add more features.

In addition, it  has sister apps for photos and vector drawing.

Wrong thread for the topic so I will briefly say, between what you say and my past couple of hours of research, wow, hot tip!

 

 

 

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Rick Meints said:

* I don't necessarily see the RPG business as being or becoming a rich person's hobby. Yes, absolutely, there are a number of people who have a day job that pays the bills and they create material regardless of the bottom line. That said, between PDF and POD publishing, and Crowdfunding, I feel there is more opportunity now to make money via starting as a small independent publisher and then growing from there. In the end, great product is great product. If you want any chance at making a living, or a part of your income, from RPGs you have to create and publish things. We at Chaosium have tried to make that easier for newcomers via the Miskatonic Repository and the Jonstown Compendium platforms we get up on DTRPG. I wouldn't at all be surprised if we set up another such platform for BRP as well in the not too distant future.

I don't deny that -- in many ways -- the barriers to entry are dropping; as you say, PDF/POD/Crowdfunding, the DTRPG creator-fan projects, blogging, podcasting, etc etc etc; all make "getting your foot in the door" and/or "getting your product seen" easier than ever.  And (as you also say)... if you wanna get into the market, you've gotta make a start SOMEWHERE.  I don't think even the Big Boys in the industry ever just hire game-dev's and writers "cold" with no industry cred.  So you need some product, to make your mark, get some fan-buzz or industry-rep or whatever; something for the gamer-geek resume, to launch you toward that dream job.  (although I've got to wonder (with things like Prof. Knight's RPG-writing class over at Taylor): might someone from such a program actually be eligible/viable as a new-hire???)

I will note, however, that the old "fanzine" culture served many of the same purposes, letting newbie authors wet their feet on a low-pay / no-pay basis, giving them some exposure, letting both fans and devs/publishers see their work.  It's not like the blogging and such are actually doing something that's fundamentally NEW...  It's just that e-distribution and a global Internet make it easier to find what we each want, and connect with providers of such wanted material.

That said... the economics is not really all one way, nor all the other.  And "rich person" is clearly hyperbole on my part; apologies if it was overly provocative.  Maybe "comfortable hobbyist" is less hyperbolic -- someone who can afford to put in something like a half-time job, for years, with little to no expectations of getting any of their necessities of life from it.  On the other side of the equation are the hiring companies, who often exploit that market, whether intentionally or not.

Heading up the "F--- that S---" column, there have been (and continue to be) some really abusive actors in the industry.  Shadowrun went through a pretty dire period some years ago, of not paying (or grossly delaying payment) on freelance contracts (and it became scandalously clear that they could have paid their freelancers, they just had... "other" priorities); I know they are not alone in this, though I understand they do OK these days.

I believe Chaosium itself went through a cashflow problem (rather than a "screw you, I'm building my vacation-house" problem), where some folks didn't get paid... and YES, I am (very much) aware that The Chaosium has been actively soliciting any such previously-unpaid or un-credited contributors, and trying to fulfill any unfulfilled contracts, make every transaction right...  I cannot express how profoundly I admire you for doing this!

You yourself also acknowledge that some creators don't need to consult a "bottom line" to produce their stuff.  People who can undercut ANYONE who's trying to make a living often do so:  not by trying to cut out anyone else, just trying to get their own work in front of interested eyes.  I'm not saying they are wrong, or bad, or being evil, etc etc etc.  But if a Line-Developer has $20K for some part of a project, and one author will do the job for $500 + 1 case of comp-copies, while the other wants 10c/word = $3750 (and the L-D expects both will do equally good work)... doesn't Mr.500 get the job, so there's over $3K "bonus" budget left for art and layout and etc...?  Unless the L-D begins to add in considerations like "but 3750 guy has no other job, just writing, and really needs the income, so I'll throw the job his way even though it means less art/etc in the book." ... which is really not the L-D's job!  (and anyhow, the L-D isn't likely to know enough about every bidder to equally evaluate everyone's circumstances & offer any sort of "needs-based" consideration (and to reiterate: social-work isn't their F'ing job!)).

See this essay:   http://briebeau.com/thoughty/2019/06/we-say-fuck-you-pay-me/     Brie (the author) leans in on the disparity for "marginalized" authors, but is pretty up-front about "being underpaid in gaming" is ubiquitous (if not universal), including for the cis-white-dude "privileged" gamer (who mainly has to deal with less of the issue, not none of the issue).  The point isn't to make the industry become social workers, but for the industry-standard to be:  pay a fair wage on a published scale when hiring, as standard practice.  If they were always paying a fair wage (never accepting self-subsidized labor) the issue of the self-subsidized dilettante (and the publisher or L-D as pseudo-social-worker) wouldn't be any sort of issue.   A few telling quotations from the essay (see especially the 3rd one):

Quote

Usually I’ve been successful in negotiating up to a fair rate or better (it usually only takes one very polite but nerve-wracking email), but [redacted] has refused to even negotiate with me and/or removed me from projects when I’ve asked to be paid a living wage.

Quote

Negotiation is not really given as an option. When you’re writing for a big company with an established line there is always the assumption that you’re really doing this because you’re passionate about the line and there are a lot of people passionate about the line willing to do your job for next to free. Everyone has a screenplay in Hollywood everyone is a game designer in RPG fandom. A few people I know have managed to negotiate higher rates for projects but the one time I brought up that I’d been contributing to the company for a while and never managed to get a pay raise I was told that it was because I didn’t lean in. 

Quote

It’s not important to me per se, as this is a hobby to me and not a job. I want a fair rate for me so as not to upset the market for folks who require a fair rate to pay their rent. If I’m out there doing stuff for cheap or free, it takes opportunity away from others and incorrectly calibrates expectations of compensation. 

You say, "in the end, great product is great product."

I agree... and furthermore I find that the RPG industry is awash in great product these days; enough so that I frankly don't have enough time to play all (or even most) of it !  I called it "astounding and dismaying" quite intentionally!

I've seen Chaosium itself tasked by "fans" & critics, with how "expensive / overpriced" some of your products (supposedly) are.  Those critics are basing their criticism (at least in part) on the market being shaped by free/cheap content creators (also, of course, there are some grognards whose "feel" of the "appropriate price" was formed in the 70s/80s/whatever).  To be explicit:  I don't share those critics' POV, and think Chaosium offers excellent value for my dollars spent.

But... in general, "the market" asks:  why pay market rates / living wage for "great product" when other providers make "equally-great product" on a subsidized/hobbyist basis?  There is a LOT more product out on the market than can be accounted for by the number of folks making their living at gaming-production.  Industry-wide numbers are notoriously hard to come by, but I've seen some best-estimate numbers suggesting that the RPG industry has the gross revenues to support about 150ish full-time authors at a living wage... but that there are (IIRC) closer to 1000 RPG authors writing.  That rather boggles the mind, and I'm trying to envision other jobs (secretary? bookkeeper?  retail sales?) where "the industry" only supports about 1 worker in 7...

 

Anyhow, I'm not claiming there are easy answers, nor that The Chaosium is one of the actors sustaining the problem! 

Just saying that there is a problem... and that it's worth admitting the problem & considering the issues... and even occasionally making some effort to correct things (as noted above, I see that The Chaosium DOES take those extra efforts, for which I'm appreciative!).

As a consumer, it IS something I consider, and I DO make some effort (e.g. in what I buy, which companies I'll champion & recommend online) to address issues I care about.  Others' MMV.

 

[g33k]

16 hours ago, Rick Meints said:

** I'm on the fence about the label of "nuChaosium". I don't mind having the current management team specifically called out or compared to the previous team. That said, I've also seen it used in the pejorative a bit too often to immediately see it as a positive term... I prefer people simply call us The Chaosium.

Not to put too fine a point upon it, Rick, but... that's not "on the fence!"  😁  I shall try to remember to avoid "nuChaosium" in the future; sorry to hear enough people are using it that way to leave a sour taste in your mind.   ☹️ 

I am... honestly confused that any "fan" could consider it a pejorative, though!  The products coming out -- across the board -- are absolutely great, and clearly an overall improvement.  And (as best I can tell, as an interested fan) Chaosium would not have survived without the GreatOldOne/MoonDesign intervention.  So both on the creative & business sides, it's a clear win.

 

17 hours ago, Rick Meints said:

** ...The dollars are taking care of themselves. We have professionals with decades of business experience, budgets, finance, and similar skills minding the store. We focus on getting new product out on a regular basis. Product that gamers will love. We watch the money. Nuff said on that.

Well, if you MD folks (who invested your own $$ in setting Chaosium right) are satisfied with how the financial side is working out... that's ample info to keep me satisfied, too!  TYVM, again!

[Bill the barbarian]

31 minutes ago, g33k said:

believe Chaosium itself went through a cashflow problem (rather than a "screw you, I'm building my vacation-house" problem), where some folks didn't get paid... and YES, I am (very much) aware that The Chaosium has been actively soliciting any such previously-unpaid or un-credited contributors, and trying to fulfill any unfulfilled contracts, make every transaction right...  I cannot express how profoundly I admire you for doing this!

Right thread this time right topic but still as brief...

Ya said a whole whack of stuff but I got to pull this out. Somewhere Rick said he had a lifelong love affair going with the Chaosium (here?) and it shows! Proud to be a chaosium hobbyist for many reasons. This is just another one.

Cheers

15 minutes ago, g33k said:

Well, if you MD folks (who invested your own $$ in setting Chaosium right) are satisfied with how the financial side is working out... that's ample info to keep me satisfied, too!  TYVM, again!

repeat as often as needed to make the point....

Cheers again

[Atgxtg]

On 12/3/2019 at 3:47 PM, Old Man Henerson said:

I assumed that it was how Chaosium and everyone else got their hands on the Cthulhu franchise.

Probably due to Lovecraft's work entering the public domain, and therefore open to use by anyone.

Now companies have lobbied for and gotten copy write duration extended several times over the years, and RPG game mechanics are not copy-writable (but the text used to present them is),  but even so a lot of older stories and setting are open for use.

 

 

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Probably due to Lovecraft's work entering the public domain, and therefore open to use by anyone.

I do not believe this is -quite- correct.  There is the 1923 copyright event-horizon, which places a bunch of HPL into the public domain, but several classic HPL pieces are after that!

And then there's the whole "Arkham House" situation.  Some say their claims are "flimsy" or even "bogus," but IANAL and cannot tell if they're right, or those claims as to bogosity are themselves are flimsy/bogus.

I don't know that anyone has ever challenged Arkham House in court (or that they have ever challenged others' use of HPL in court); or than they have not ... ?

 

And of course there's the issue of differing countries having differing laws.  I'm sure that, for any given (c)-law, there is somewhere that it's legal to break that law.

YMMV.  IANAL.

 

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

I do not believe this is -quite- correct.

No, not quite. Much of it is in public domain, apparently everything sold to Weird Science should have been  in PD a  lot sooner that it was thought to be,  but some other things are in questionable status. Plus companies have managed to get the CW laws extended well beyond their intended purpose and will probably will continue to do so again. Still, from the viewpoint of RPG a lot of it was in the PD since 2008, and I doubt Arkham House would risk their house of cards going after an RPG and possibly having their stuff all declared PD. 

 

It's not a bad idea though for someone to track down something that is definitely in public domain and based an RPG on it. At least, it if is something good.

 

[soltakss]

22 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Still, from the viewpoint of RPG a lot of it was in the PD since 2008, and I doubt Arkham House would risk their house of cards going after an RPG and possibly having their stuff all declared PD. 

I think a lot of the RPG material for Call of Cthulhu, although loosely based on Lovecraft's works, is very much a Chaosium IP and not in the public domain.

The stories may well be and they can be used, but i'd be careful about the creatures, Mythos and so on.

[Atgxtg]

21 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I think a lot of the RPG material for Call of Cthulhu, although loosely based on Lovecraft's works, is very much a Chaosium IP and not in the public domain.

Certainly. The original question was someone wondering how Chasoium and other companies were  all were able to produce various Cthulhu Mythos RPGs. The basic answer is that a lot of the stories  were/still are up for grabs. 

 

[Belisar]

I don't know if the thread is still a thing but as a latecomer and newbie to BRP I will throw in my 10 cents.

First, I guess, a Kickstarter approach for a new BRP version would be the best, considering that this endeavor financing for itself without a KS is financially risky. But if the KS makes some good money, like CoC 7th (over 560.000) and 7th sea (over 1.3 Mio!) did, if I remember correctly, who knows. If the good name Chaosium is thrown behind it, I could image a 6 figured sum.

There may be no big market for generic systems, but there is surely some potential as BRP is not something completely new. I am only aware of 3 others than BRP: Gurps, Genesys and Savage Worlds. And the Savage Worlds KS was quite successful for a generic system.

Contentwise I could imagine bringing...

...new CoC 7th and RQG inventions to the book.

...cinematic rules like Mooks from AA, to make chars more resilient and heroic for playstyles where the PCs are very competent.

...more about vehicles and vehicular combat. I know, this could fill a splat book alone, but at least some basics would be very nice.

...creation rules, if it is monsters, playable races or vehicles and so on.

Would love to see an updated version of the BRP Core. 😊

Edited November 15, 2020 by Belisar

[Atgxtg]

12 hours ago, Belisar said:

I don't know if the thread is still a thing but as a latecomer and newbie to BRP and will throw in my 10 cents.

First, I guess, a Kickstarter approach for a new BRP version would be the best, considering that this endeavor is financially risky. But if the KS makes some good money, like CoC 7th (over 560.000) and 7th sea (over 1.3 Mio!) did, if I remember correctly, who knows. If the good name Chaosium is thrown behind it, I could image a 6 figured sum.

In theory, yes. If a kickstarter got a lot of support, finace it would show there was interest and mitigate the risks. I doubt the fanbase is really there for it, but a kickstarter would show if there is or not.

12 hours ago, Belisar said:

There may be no big market for generic systems, but there is surely some potential as BRP is not something comletely new.

That's sort of the point. BRP came about in 80s when most of the major RPG companies were turning their game systems into generic It then became something of the default for all new game systems, in no small part helped by most games having a strong simulations approach. 

The trend lasted into the 90, when  games with more specific settings and style took over, making rule sets tailored to a particular setting more popular. 

12 hours ago, Belisar said:

 

I am only aware of 3 others than BRP: Gurps, Genesys and Savage Worlds. And the Savage Worlds KS was quite successful for a generic system.

You missed HERO system, which was possible the first generic system. Both HERO and BRP pioneered the idea of a generic system, and both did so by taking a successful parent game system (Champions and RuneQuest, repsectively) and then using those rules for other settings. Rolemaster would probably be another. HERO, ICE and Steve Jackson Games were the companies that produced the bulk of the setting books that covered various historical/semi-historical places.

Yes, Savage Worlds has been quite successful as a somewhat generic system that is easily adapted to any setting by putting out setting specific game books. But, at this point in time, even D&D has been morphed into a "generic" system, by way of adapting specfic settings tot he D&D ruleset. Practically any game system can be used to handle any desired setting. Some are better fits or easier to agapt to a particluar setting that others. 

12 hours ago, Belisar said:

Contentwise I could imagine bringing...

...new CoC 7th and RQG inventions to the book.

...cinematic rules like Mooks from AA, to make chars more resilient and heroic for playstyles where the PCs are very competent.

...more about vehicles and vehicular combat. I know, this could fill a splat book alone, but at least some basics would be very nice.

...creation rules, if it is monsters, playable races or vehicles and so on.

Would love to see an updated version of the BRP Core. 😊

THose are all good ideas but they also bring new problems.

 

12 hours ago, Belisar said:

...new CoC 7th and RQG inventions to the book.

Would probably make BRP even more difficult for new GMs, who have already been confused by the various options. IMO what we probably need is a simplier version of BRP, without the options, and then an Advanced Role Playing supplmenent with the optional and variant rule systems. 

12 hours ago, Belisar said:

...cinematic rules like Mooks from AA, to make chars more resilient and heroic for playstyles where the PCs are very competent.

You mean port over the stuff from Pulp Cthulhu?

12 hours ago, Belisar said:

...more about vehicles and vehicular combat. I know, this could fill a splat book alone, but at least some basics would be very nice.

Amen. But I think that runs into a stylistic choice. The rules in BRP are very abstract regarding vehicles. I think that to have vehicle rules that go into any sort of detail, we'd need to have some sort of scale for vehicle values. For instance a direct corrlation between a vehicle's speed in MPH or KPH to MOV and/or Rated Speed. 

But I think most the people involved with BRP justr want generic "close enough" examples to work with. 

12 hours ago, Belisar said:

...creation rules, if it is monsters, playable races or vehicles and so on.

That we already have. Generally you write up playable races just like any other character. Since there is no difference in the stats between PCs and NPC or monsters it's the same rules for all. It's just that monsters don't train and improve all that much, and most NPCs aren't as skilled as PCs to give the PCs and edge.

12 hours ago, Belisar said:

Would love to see an updated version of the BRP Core. 😊

 Unlikely at present. Chasoium seems more focused on doing complete games for specific settings, and they tend to do better in the marketplace -especially when it comes to the lifeblood of a successful RPG line -supplements. Setting specific supplements tend to sell better than generic ones.

[Belisar]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

In theory, yes. If a kickstarter got a lot of support, finace it would show there was interest and mitigate the risks. I doubt the fanbase is really there for it, but a kickstarter would show if there is or not.

This would be the question indeed. I'm always on the search for the "one" system to rule them all. I'd love to have a system I can put over homebrew settings like a sleeve. As a family father I don't have the time to learn a dozen systems made for their specific genres, I'd appreciate one who comes close enough to cover all, so to say a second best would suffice when it means I do  not have to learn several different settings. Maybe there are enough others with the same wants. Gurps is a nice system for that and the possibilities to customize characters are plentiful. But the charcreation takes its time and the multitude of option might be overwhelming. Genesys is easy to learn but might have too few options. The dice mechanics of Savage Worlds is to clunky for me. BRP couöd be a nice middleground for any of the mentioned systems. 

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Would probably make BRP even more difficult for new GMs, who have already been confused by the various options. IMO what we probably need is a simplier version of BRP, without the options, and then an Advanced Role Playing supplmenent with the optional and variant rule systems.

Those could indeed be stretchgoals of a KS. Though some optional rules should be included in the core books like combat options to grand a certain degree of modularity.

 

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Amen. But I think that runs into a stylistic choice. The rules in BRP are very abstract regarding vehicles. I think that to have vehicle rules that go into any sort of detail, we'd need to have some sort of scale for vehicle values. For instance a direct corrlation between a vehicle's speed in MPH or KPH to MOV and/or Rated Speed. 

But I think most the people involved with BRP justr want generic "close enough" examples to work with. 

There shouldn't be probably big differences between personal and vehicular combat and scales should be able to combine them neatly, up-/downscaling damage and damage reduction respectively. But yes, close enough examples would be fine for different sizes of vehicles.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by Belisar

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

You missed HERO system, which was possible the first generic system. Both HERO and BRP pioneered the idea of a generic system, and both did so by taking a successful parent game system (Champions and RuneQuest, repsectively) and then using those rules for other settings. Rolemaster would probably be another. HERO, ICE and Steve Jackson Games were the companies that produced the bulk of the setting books that covered various historical/semi-historical places.

Published as a generic system, BRP is first ((78), then GURPS ((86), then Hero ((90). But as a standalone game, Champions is the foundation of Hero system in 81, as RQ2 is the basis of BRP.

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

IMO what we probably need is a simplier version of BRP, without the options, and then an Advanced Role Playing supplmenent with the optional and variant rule systems. 

You mean going back to the '78 booklet? Why not. Seems to me a good idea.

[DreadDomain]

 

4 hours ago, Kloster said:

You mean going back to the '78 booklet? Why not. Seems to me a good idea.

Isn't it more or less what this is?

On 3/30/2020 at 2:37 PM, MOB said:

The BRP Website is our new online resource dedicated to Basic Roleplaying. It includes an online version of the BRP System Reference Document, along with other useful information and resources for playing and creating games with the Basic Roleplaying system.
https://brp.chaosium.com/

[Belisar]

7 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

 

Isn't it more or less what this is?

What a newbie like me is looking for were not only the Core Rules but the additional optional rules, especially for different genres, if it is all in one big golden book or the core in one book and the optional/genre rule in several splatbooks. And I admit, I am a sucker for dead tree products.

For instance, if I want to create a home brew Mass Effect, so to say a scifi (or space opera-ish in that case) setting, I would have to consider the following:

- how to create the player species

- scifi weapons

- scifi armor/shields

- magic/psi system (biotics)

- space ships/space combat/space travel

- optional setting rules like cinematic (heroic PCs durable), mooks, combat options (hit locations yes/no, etc.)

Would be great to, let's say, have an updated BRP core rulebook (including CoC 7th and RQG), as I believe it still covers content only until 2010(?) and a SciFi splatbook I could pick up from without heavily modifiying (not wanting to mimick the video game rules exactly, but using the BRP core/scifi rules for that).

[DreadDomain]

11 hours ago, Belisar said:

What a newbie like me is looking for were not only the Core Rules but the additional optional rules, especially for different genres, if it is all in one big golden book or the core in one book and the optional/genre rule in several splatbooks. And I admit, I am a sucker for dead tree products.

For instance, if I want to create a home brew Mass Effect, so to say a scifi (or space opera-ish in that case) setting, I would have to consider the following:

- how to create the player species

- scifi weapons

- scifi armor/shields

- magic/psi system (biotics)

- space ships/space combat/space travel

- optional setting rules like cinematic (heroic PCs durable), mooks, combat options (hit locations yes/no, etc.)

Would be great to, let's say, have an updated BRP core rulebook (including CoC 7th and RQG), as I believe it still covers content only until 2010(?) and a SciFi splatbook I could pick up from without heavily modifiying (not wanting to mimick the video game rules exactly, but using the BRP core/scifi rules for that).

Yes, I understand what you are after and I would support an updated BRP Core. I like the BGB and I like it uses some assumptions as a base and then throw in loads of options to change it. That's what BRP is to me.

By the way, a core book for a generic systems full of options is doable. Cortex Prime is now on my shelves and it's gorgeous. BRP is a simpler system and generally, a character sheet from any/most of BRP variants is still recognisable as BRP. Not the case for Cortex.

I was actually replying to this:

On 11/16/2020 at 6:30 AM, Kloster said:

You mean going back to the '78 booklet? Why not. Seems to me a good idea.

Although it is not a physical booklet, I think the SRD covers the same ground.

Edited November 16, 2020 by DreadDomain

[Belisar]

14 minutes ago, DreadDomain said:

By the way, a core book for a generic systems full of options is doable. Cortex Prime is now on my shelves and it's gorgeous. BRP is a simpler system and generally, a character sheet from any/most of BRP variants is still recognisable as BRP. Not the case for Cortex.

It does indeed really look very nice and I backed it, but I struggle a bit diving into such "abstract" games. Something with skillsets like BRP or Gurps are rather my thing. It's probably due to having solely played D&D for decades, that I am used to defined skills. Genesys is a neat generic system as wekk, but it's dice system is a bit too clunky for my taste, like that of savage worlds. But BRP could be right up my alley crunch wise between Genesys and Gurps.

Knowing that @Jason D is involved in BRP and the line editor of RQG, I have high hopes for some BRP love. I appreciate his work since Conan 2D20.

[DreadDomain]

34 minutes ago, Belisar said:

It does indeed really look very nice and I backed it, but I struggle a bit diving into such "abstract" games.

Same for me. I like the idea of Cortex but I would only play it for supers.

34 minutes ago, Belisar said:

Something with skillsets like BRP or Gurps are rather my thing. It's probably due to having solely played D&D for decades, that I am used to defined skills.

Again, same for me except that it is probably due to having mostly played GURPS, HERO and BRP for decades

34 minutes ago, Belisar said:

Genesys is a neat generic system as wekk, but it's dice system is a bit too clunky for my taste, like that of savage worlds. But BRP could be right up my alley crunch wise between Genesys and Gurps.

Same here, I am not generally enthused by stats and skills as dice or funky dice systems. BRP core is just too simple for me but once you tack on a full options, it gives the right level of texture.

34 minutes ago, Belisar said:

Knowing that @Jason D is involved in BRP and the line editor of RQG, I have high hopes for some BRP love. I appreciate his work since Conan 2D20.

Let's hope and see but I assume he is quite busy with RQ.

[craigm]

(Note: Not a member of Chaosium, just a happy lurker, so take opinions with adequate grains of favorite substance.)

I doubt we'll see a new version of BRP until a few things happen., The first is a demand for it outside of a few faithful onlookers of a forum. BRP is not known as a generic system the same way that GURPS, HERO, Fudge, et al are known. So convincing folks that they need yet-another-generic-system is going to have to come from outside of Chaosium. That is likely what the BRP Open License is about: creating that demand. The more we can get folks to adopt the system the more demand we create for the system. The second is committed resources. Kickstarter is not a great way to get committed resources to a project: those resources need to be in place prior to the project. That means picking up BRP products now and creating more positive cash flow for Chaosium to even consider such an avenue.

Those two things are key shifts that would help make a new BRP version a reality, and they're things that are simple for us to do now while we wait. Play more games, purchase more products, and spread the word about your love not only for Chaosium's games, but the BRP system. And if you're a designer and the BRP Open License fits your needs then use it for your upcoming games.

Rising tides and lifting ships.

[DreadDomain]

5 hours ago, craigm said:

(Note: Not a member of Chaosium, just a happy lurker, so take opinions with adequate grains of favorite substance.)

I doubt we'll see a new version of BRP until a few things happen., The first is a demand for it outside of a few faithful onlookers of a forum. BRP is not known as a generic system the same way that GURPS, HERO, Fudge, et al are known.

I would argue that BRP is at least as well known as Fudge but your point stands, GURPS, HERO, Savage Worlds, FATE and maybe a few others are better known as far as generic systems go and not all of them are doing that well anyway (HERO is more or less inactive at this stage). However, I believe BRP is well known for being the engine behind Call of Cthulhu, RuneQuest, Stormbringer, etc... I would offer that no other generic systems has powered so many popular games. A KS would need to draw on these big names to raise its profile (and throw in Pendragon for good measure)

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So convincing folks that they need yet-another-generic-system is going to have to come from outside of Chaosium. That is likely what the BRP Open License is about: creating that demand. The more we can get folks to adopt the system the more demand we create for the system.

Good observation but the Open License cannot do it alone. It's a chicken an egg thing. Fan projects are created when there is already a strong support from an organization and good supports from customers. Also, many conversations on these boards seem to indicate the OGL is not user friendly enough both in how the conditions are framed and the amount of material that is being offered in the SRD. 

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The second is committed resources. Kickstarter is not a great way to get committed resources to a project: those resources need to be in place prior to the project. That means picking up BRP products now and creating more positive cash flow for Chaosium to even consider such an avenue.

True. Chaosium has limited resources and I would expect them to focus them where the revenue stream comes from. I suspect the priorities would be Call of Cthulhu, RuneQuest, 7th Seas, Pendragon, BRP, QuestWorlds in that order (I have no inside knowledge, this is just me guessing). The good news is that Chaosium has already committed to a few BRP games  ("committed" might be a bit strong) and we also heard about other potential games (Rivers of London, Lords of the Middle Sea, Mythic Iceland, also rumored Superworld). There is hope!

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Those two things are key shifts that would help make a new BRP version a reality, and they're things that are simple for us to do now while we wait. Play more games, purchase more products, and spread the word about your love not only for Chaosium's games, but the BRP system. And if you're a designer and the BRP Open License fits your needs then use it for your upcoming games.

Rising tides and lifting ships.

I guess the real issue here is that Chaosium prefers to publish complete games and are not too keen on generic systems (or so I remember reading) so I suspect both BRP and QW SRDs are their way of putting their systems out there and that a BRP Core book is not even considered at this stage.

Edited November 17, 2020 by DreadDomain

[Belisar]

8 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

I would argue that BRP is at least as well known as Fudge but your point stands, GURPS, HERO, Savage Worlds, FATE and maybe a few others are better known as far as generic systems go and not all of them are doing that well anyway (HERO is more or less inactive at this stage). However, I believe BRP is well known for being the engine behind Call of Cthulhu, RuneQuest, Stormbringer, etc... I would offer that no other generic systems has powered so many popular games. A KS would need to draw on these big names to raise its profile (and throw in Pendragon for good measure)

Exactly, just look at what they made out of the Gurps Dungeon Fantasy pdf document line. This Kickstarter was advertised as "Powered by Gurps" and reached close to 180k. Not bad for a niche product, based on what is almost solely perceived as a Generic System without any setting on its one (maybe Discworld being more or less the only prominent exception).

8 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

Good observation but the Open License cannot do it alone. It's a chicken an egg thing. Fan projects are created when there is already a strong support from an organization and good supports from customers. Also, many conversations on these boards seem to indicate the OGL is not user friendly enough both in how the conditions are framed and the amount of material that is being offered in the SRD.

Indeed, for me as a newbie for instance, I'd have a hard time to create a homebrew setting based on the SRD. Like I mentioned in my Mass Effect example:

On 11/16/2020 at 9:43 AM, Belisar said:

For instance, if I want to create a home brew Mass Effect, so to say a scifi (or space opera-ish in that case) setting, I would have to consider the following:

- how to create the player species

- scifi weapons

- scifi armor/shields

- magic/psi system (biotics)

- space ships/space combat/space travel

- optional setting rules like cinematic (heroic PCs durable), mooks, combat options (hit locations yes/no, etc.)

 

8 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

True. Chaosium has limited resources and I would expect them to focus them where the revenue stream comes from. I suspect the priorities would be Call of Cthulhu, RuneQuest, 7th Seas, Pendragon, BRP, QuestWorlds in that order (I have no inside knowledge, this is just me guessing). The good news is that Chaosium has already committed to a few BRP games  ("committed" might be a bit strong) and we also heard about other potential games (Rivers of London, Lords of the Middle Sea, Mythic Iceland, also rumored Superworld). There is hope!

And as BRP/BRP SRD is the concrete of all those settings, it would be immensly helpful for creators (and thus fans as well), to have an elaborated guidlines covering all optional rules and genre options. And as it was mentioned, those genre options could come in their own form of supplements, if it is via Pod or only pdf.

And pdf is another option, you could offer PoD for example via drivethrough in addition to the documents funded in the KS. I've seen quite a couple of RPG KS taking that route to minimize the effort of the production. So you don't have to print books ahead and minimize the risks.

[craigm]

8 hours ago, Belisar said:

Exactly, just look at what they made out of the Gurps Dungeon Fantasy pdf document line. This Kickstarter was advertised as "Powered by Gurps" and reached close to 180k. Not bad for a niche product, based on what is almost solely perceived as a Generic System without any setting on its one (maybe Discworld being more or less the only prominent exception).

Once you pull away the higher-tier pledges for special items (illustrations and special GM sessions), you've got folks spending around 168K for a boxed set and some additional goodies like the How to be a GM, dice, etc. The average someone spent was $112, and cutting out the large spenders you have around $107 per person. Not bad for a $50 box set.

Also consider that the retail market for these didn't appear that great. I thought for sure that the copy that my FLGS had would be gone within a month. I think it took around 3+ months to finally sell, and I doubt they'll be restocking it.

Also keep in mind that a lot of the writing had been done already for Dungeon Fantasy over the past 10 years. This was more of a "we're finally going to test the waters to see how well a combined version does". Quite a far cry from updating BRP to bring it in line with current product.

Also also keep in mind that the only issue that POD solves is the storage and upfront costs. I've witnessed folks doing POD projects and it takes a lot of effort to get these laid out for printing. It's like comparing making a CD-R or a download of music vs making a CD of music: it still takes just as long to write, practice, write, practice, record, re-record, mix, re-record, mix, and lay out an album regardless of the final media.

Edited November 17, 2020 by craigm

[Belisar]

3 hours ago, craigm said:

Also consider that the retail market for these didn't appear that great. I thought for sure that the copy that my FLGS had would be gone within a month. I think it took around 3+ months to finally sell, and I doubt they'll be restocking it.

My online FLGS had every box already sold via preorder and were only able to restock after the following KS by Gurps for a reprint of the box and that was immediatly sold as well.

 

3 hours ago, craigm said:

Also keep in mind that a lot of the writing had been done already for Dungeon Fantasy over the past 10 years. This was more of a "we're finally going to test the waters to see how well a combined version does". Quite a far cry from updating BRP to bring it in line with current product.

True, though having an updated BRP Corebook based on an updated SRD could prove worthwile. For fans and for licensees. And I agree, a generic corebook is probably not as much in demand as setting but it can still produce a sizable following. At least sizable enough to make the production of the generic system worthwhile. Take FFG Star Wars and the Genesys system for instance. In my case I played FFGs Star Wars for quite a while, an when Genesys as the mechanics behind that was published I was hooked because I liked the system behind the setting and could imagine to use the mechanics for my homebrew settings. In the case of BRP it's the same, first I was drawn in by CoC and then RQG and now could envision to have the BRP for my to go for my homebrew settings. If enough think like me, well, it could be worthwile, at least no loss and it would be a kind of prestige to push the house mechanics behind the house settings.

EDIT: And skimming through some covers of products like Cthulhu Invictus, for instance, there are quite a lot showing the emblem "Powered by Chaosiums Basic Roleplaying System". I could imagine, that there is some curiosity about the system behind products you like. Like, wow, I could imagine doing Cthulhu Mass Effect with BRP for my home table.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Belisar

[Atgxtg]

On 11/15/2020 at 3:30 PM, Kloster said:

Published as a generic system, BRP is first ((78), then GURPS ((86), then Hero ((90). But as a standalone game, Champions is the foundation of Hero system in 81, as RQ2 is the basis of BRP.

Sounds about right, escpet that you forgot The Fantasy Trip, which was the basis for GURPS. 

On 11/15/2020 at 3:30 PM, Kloster said:

You mean going back to the '78 booklet? Why not. Seems to me a good idea.

I was thinking more along the lines of something two or three times that- similar to, but with a bit more to it than original magic world. Basically a core, standalone gamebook without all the bells and whistles that could serve as an introductory/basic RPG. All the bells & Whistiles could then be put into an expansion book. But, that would assume a desire to go that route, which doesn't seem to be the case. 

[Atgxtg]

On 11/15/2020 at 2:50 PM, Belisar said:

This would be the question indeed. I'm always on the search for the "one" system to rule them all.

As someone who used to do that, I'd say that I doubt that such a game exists. Ultimately I think the game rules need to reflect the reality of the game world, and thus one system probably won't work well for everything. Or, even if it did, a game system tailored to a specific game setting would do the job better. 

The classic example would be running a four color comic book campaign with BRP. TO get the feel of the comics you need to tone done most of BRPs inherent deadliness. You don't want the Hulk to squash Spiderman that one time Spidey fumbles his dodge roll. 

On 11/15/2020 at 2:50 PM, Belisar said:

 As a family father I don't have the time to learn a dozen systems made for their specific genres, I'd appreciate one who comes close enough to cover all, so to say a second best would suffice when it means I do  not have to learn several different settings.

I typically have found that while I've played many game systems, and read many more, I tend to fall back on a handful of systems for most of my games. 

On 11/15/2020 at 2:50 PM, Belisar said:

Those could indeed be stretchgoals of a KS. Though some optional rules should be included in the core books like combat options to grand a certain degree of modularity.

I don't think too many optional rules should be in the core book. One of the things that hurt the BGB was that there were so many options and varianrt that many GMs new to the game system didn't know what to do with it all. Most of those options were great for a GM who was already familar with the game and who wanted to customize the rules to suit a particular campaign, but they were a nightmare for someone who was just looking for a "Basic Role Playing" game.

I think a basic game has to be kept simple. All the options and add ons could be put in one or more supplements to flesh it out.

On 11/15/2020 at 2:50 PM, Belisar said:

There shouldn't be probably big differences between personal and vehicular combat and scales should be able to combine them neatly, up-/downscaling damage and damage reduction respectively. But yes, close enough examples would be fine for different sizes of vehicles.

I think there really doesn't need to be some big differences, between personal and vehicle scale. Remember, a typical BRP character has about 12 hit points, and a tough one might have 16. SO almost any "vehicle scale" weapon is going to be an autokill against a character.

Personally I've used the original Superworld/RQ3 SIZ table to put every stat on the same scale. I think it makes it much easier to stat up things consistently, and it allows for a few math tricks to simply things.