The original Evil Queen

[seneschal]

5 hours ago, Attercop said:

If any of them ever existed.

Actually, based on the number, accuracy and age of extant manuscripts, biblical characters are better documented than Greek and Roman sources scholars accept without question.  I mean, researching the original post, the Encyclopedia Britannica and Biography.com (even Wikipedia) accept Jezebel's existence.  Now, you may think Elijah was a nut and Jezebel was a hero, but they are historical characters, not Goldilocks and Jack and the Beanstalk fairy tale figures.  It is like denying that Henry VIII or Julius Caesar ever existed.

Edited October 31, 2019 by seneschal

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, seneschal said:

Actually, based on the number, accuracy and age of extant manuscripts, biblical characters are better documented than Greek and Roman sources scholars accept without question.  I mean, researching the original post, the Encyclopedia Britannica and Biography.com (even Wikipedia) accept Jezebel's existence.  Now, you may think Elijah was a nut and Jezebel was a hero, but they are historical characters, not Goldilocks and Jack and the Beanstalk fairy tale figures.  It is like denying that Henry XIII or Julius Caesar ever existed.

I really doubt there has been a Henry XIII. As far as I remember, british Henry's count stops at 8, french one at 4, and I know no other kingdom that had a king named Henry.

[seneschal]

😉  Thanks for catching the typo.  Oops!

On the other hand, this means you've got five more shots at ruling Merry Old England as your very own.  Once you've got that scepter in hand, who's to say your birth name isn't Henry?  🧐

Edited October 31, 2019 by seneschal

[Attercop]

Quote

Actually, based on the number, accuracy and age of extant manuscripts, biblical characters are better documented than Greek and Roman sources scholars accept without question.

If you accept the Bible as an historical document maybe, it's not.

[seneschal]

6 minutes ago, Attercop said:

If you accept the Bible as an historical document maybe, it's not.

(Shrug). It's a matter of whether you choose to go with the facts or not.  Again, biblical manuscripts are older, more numerous, and copies are more consistent with each other than most other ancient texts accepted by secular scholars.  In fact, they are a primary source for what we know about ancient civilizations such as the Persians, Assyrians, etc.  People and places mentioned in the texts are consistently confirmed by archeology despite what 19th century detractors tried to tell us.  Time and more sophisticated excavation methods tend to back up the manuscripts.

Now none of this requires you to accept the Jewish worldview or what the texts say about God.  But to insist that Person X never existed because he or she happens to be mentioned in a document whose theology you dislike is intellectually dishonest and more than a bit silly.  I may disagree with Plato's political musings or Marcus Aurelius' philosophy but I don't deny that they ever lived.

Quit trolling and post your own NPC write-ups if you don't like mine.  Pick your favorite non-Jewish Bronze Age personality and tell us all about him (or her).  How can that person spice up our RuneQuest campaigns?  I quadruple-dog dare you.  🤨

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, Kloster said:

I really doubt there has been a Henry XIII. As far as I remember, british Henry's count stops at 8, french one at 4, and I know no other kingdom that had a king named Henry.

German Holy Roman Empire kings/emperors had Heinrich (=Henry), too, but if the count continues beyond 4 they didn't leave much impression on the history. German dynasties are a different matter - there is one noble family (Reuss) which named all its male descendants "Heinrich", but for some reason or other they don't appear to have numbered them.

[soltakss]

On 10/31/2019 at 2:40 PM, Kloster said:

I really doubt there has been a Henry XIII

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_XIII%2C_Duke_of_Bavaria 🙂

On 10/31/2019 at 4:01 PM, Attercop said:

If you accept the Bible as an historical document maybe, it's not.

Actually, for RPG purposes, it doesn't matter whether someone actually existed or not. My Fantasy Earth supplements rely as much on the Mythic aspects as the Historical aspects. So, a campaign could contain Robin Hood, King Arthur, Aladdin, Jezebel or whoever. If it has a good story and suits the period, then I am likely to include them.

 

[seneschal]

Hmmm, King John and King Ahab were both scoundrels.  Wonder how they would square off against each other's opponents? And if Errołl Flynn is playing Hood, who is portraying Elijah?

[Thalaba]

I came across this radio show episode today and thought it was worth a share:

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/the-jezebel-problem-what-bossy-women-should-know-about-language-1.4933255

The polytheist Queen Jezebel is particularly noteworthy as her use of language differs so much from that of other characters.

"Jezebel's very direct. She gives orders," says Hare. "She gives orders to men which is unusual. She asks direct questions. She's very future-oriented, not past oriented, and she never ever uses any forms of deference."

The main thrust of the episode is very interesting but somewhat peripheral to the story of Jezebel, but there's good section on her and her place in society starting at the 10-minute mark.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Thalaba

[seneschal]

"The [Mosuo] women are not deferential," says Choo. "Women speak very confidently. And if they have a strong opinion, they won't hesitate to voice it loudly and firmly."

Hmmm, my wife is neither Chinese nor from a matriarchal culture but she has no problem expressing her opinions -- strong or not -- loudly and firmly.  😳  And you're taking your life in your hands if you dare call her a Jezebel.  Speak softly -- and put down that stick, you fool!  Don't want to provoke her.

I wonder if the female rabbi is overstating her case.  After all, there are other queens (and female judges) in the Bible.  And in the gospels Mary and her cousin Elizabeth talk their heads off but we barely hear a peep out of Joseph or Zechariah (of course, the latter was struck mute by an angel).

The instances I can think of when a biblical woman addressed someone as "my lord" or referred to herself as "your maidservant" are when she was confronted by an angel or other divine presence (Mary talking to Gabriel) or dealing with a social superior (Ruth talking to her boss Boaz).  In similar circumstances the guys are deferential, too (don't want to piss off a divine messenger capable of casually destroying cities).

Edited November 13, 2019 by seneschal

[g33k]

2 hours ago, seneschal said:

... (don't want to piss off a divine messenger capable of casually destroying cities).

(unless you're looking for a wrasslin' match, a la Jacob)

[seneschal]

Jacob survived, with his hip permanently out of whack.  Hate to have his chiropractor bills.  😉

[g33k]

2 hours ago, seneschal said:

Jacob survived, with his hip permanently out of whack.  Hate to have his chiropractor bills.  😉

Yes; but my point that not every figure in the Torah / Old Testament is universally averse to pissing-off an angel...

 

(edit:  presuming that the offer to wrestle does indeed annoy the angel)

Edited November 14, 2019 by g33k
clarity

[seneschal]

Angel wrasslin'.  Sort of like gator wrasslin' but with greater collateral damage.  😁

There does seem to be a difference in how angels are depicted in the Old and New Testaments.  In the latter, angels are all glowing and dressed in white robes and the humans immediately know something unusual is up.  In the Old Testament angels show up incognito looking like anybody else, and the human host only figures out that the guy in the dusty hoodie isn't a traveling salesman about halfway through the conversation.  "Oh, boy!  I'm in trouble now!"

[Darius West]

On 10/23/2019 at 1:41 AM, soltakss said:

Well, she seduces Solomon and tries to persuade him not to follow correct worship (Well, to be fair, he didn't need much persuading), the Kabbalah seems to have her as a demon, she is said to have been half-Djinn, Nebuchadnezzar is said to be their son, who conquers Israel, but the dates don't really match, so there are aspects that could be villainous.

While I certainly don't endorse the views expressed in the Bible, it does try to portray the Queen of Sheba as a villainess.  I would also point out that allegedly her son by Solomon stole the arc of the covenant and brought it to Ethiopia according to folklore.

[seneschal]

9 hours ago, Darius West said:

While I certainly don't endorse the views expressed in the Bible, it does try to portray the Queen of Sheba as a villainess.  I would also point out that allegedly her son by Solomon stole the arc of the covenant and brought it to Ethiopia according to folklore.

The Queen of Sheba gets mentioned twice, in 1Kings 10:1-13 and in 2 Chronicles 9:1-12, pretty much duplicate passages.  She comes to negotiate a mutually beneficial trade deal and is impressed by Solomon's wisdom and wealth, which she says exceed the rumors she heard back home.  She praises the God of Israel for both in terms that make one wonder whether she is a believer herself.  Then she goes home.

And that's it.  No torrid romance.  No occult shenanigans.  No details on her age or appearance or religious and political views.  All we know is that she was loaded and had a list of tough questions for the King of Israel to answer and he managed to wow her on both points.  😉
 

So far, Queen of Sheba sounds more like Judge Judy than Megan Fox.  Yikes!  😳

Edited November 20, 2019 by seneschal