The Star Wars Mega-thread

[Sir_Godspeed]

11 hours ago, seneschal said:

I thought the Trade Federation giant doughnut ships were cool looking, and their robot army was perfect canon fodder for the good guys to clobber without committing murder.  However, I never understood their motives for attacking Naboo.  Maybe the movie explained but if so I must have missed it.

The prequel trilogy is abysmally written (though I will argue that it was pretty good at getting across the scale of SW rather than the three-dozen fighters that attack the Death Star) and so the political background for the crisis was mostly expanded in the novels and comics (which makes sense since Star Wars movies are primarily children's entertainment - don't hate me just because it's true).

But basically, I believe the general gist is that the Trade Federation - a merchant cartel roughly similar to something like the Hanseatic League or possibly something like a coalition of Korean chaebol - decided to bully a planet in the Outer (Mid?) Rim into accepting lowered tariffs (or possibly removing them altogether) which would free the Federation's ability to make higher profits and act as they wished. Naboo was moreover to serve as an example for other planets to follow suit. They did this because the Republic had been very gridlocked and ineffective in recent decades, which both frustrated merchants but also allowed them to do as they pleased.

That's my understanding at least.

[seneschal]

Thanks!  And, no, I am not offended by your description of Star Wars as kid lit.  Whatever my physical age, I'm still 6 years old when it comes to all things pop sci-fi.  😉

[Questbird]

On 10/24/2019 at 1:17 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

If I were to play Star Wars I'd... use the dedicated system by FFG. No offense to Chaosium but it's brilliant and does Force powers supernally well. The alternative would be using HeroQuest, because Star Wars is 100% not about rolling to see what body part you hit.

 

I've played the introductory Edge of Empire scenario and it was pretty fun -- though we didn't get up to using Force powers. I played a Droid anyway, so I doubt I'll be seeing any (unless "I never knew I had it in me"). You roll a lot of special dice and there's a certain amount of what I call mechanised roleplaying. By that I mean, the dice truly decide if 'something bad happens'. It takes a bit of power away from the gamemaster and gives some to the players, in the interests of shared roleplaying. It's not oldskool and it's not all bad. Probably better for new GMs and roleplayers. It's an important lesson for GMs and players that roleplaying is not a competition between them; a lesson which we second-generation grognards didn't always learn well.

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, Questbird said:

in the interests of shared roleplaying

i like this. i also like how the Force works in the game. A lot.

[Mugen]

On 10/23/2019 at 4:17 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

The alternative would be using HeroQuest, because Star Wars is 100% not about rolling to see what body part you hit.

Well, you rarely see a lightsaber hit a protagonist during a fight in the movies, but when it does it usually chops a limb...

However, I agree the traditional BRP combat where only actual wounds count would not fit such a fight style.

[Joerg]

Just to douse the embers with gasoline, the explanations in Darths&Droids helped my to answer "why Naboo" splendidly.

BRPs Magic Point economy doesn't seem to model force abilities well. POW is more like a limit how much you can channel at any given time.

[seneschal]

On the other hand, perhaps that fits what we see on screen.  Our movies focus on a tiny percentage of the Imperial population that can channel and direct the Force.  Most folks don't even know it exists, much less how to use it to affect the world around them.

In that sense, the Skywalker family is sort of like the X-Men.  Both are a tiny group of people with strange abilities outsiders either deny or fear.  That's why other Imperial officers aboard the Death Star dared to sneer at Darth Vader.  To us, the audience, he's the big bad.  To them, he's an old cripple in a life support suit who bitterly clings to discredited religious beliefs.  They can't understand why or how Lord Vader has managed to win the favor of Grand Moff Tarkin and the Emperor.  And, dang it, he's standing in the way of their next promotion.

Edited October 26, 2019 by seneschal

[seneschal]

Three Reasons the Empire Tends To Lose

Star Wars protagonists tend to be brave, noble, self-sacrificing types.  However, it is possible that the Rebellion could send out Homer Simpson and Lou Costello to fight the good fight and still win.  Here's why:

1.  Walmart Syndrome

Remember Moff Tarkin boasting that the remnants of the Imperial Senate could be safely swept away because the bureaucracy would hold things together?  Now think about how things are at your local Department of Public Safety or Department of Motor Vehicles.  Limited operating hours, nine windows but only two customer service agents on duty, an extremely leisurely work pace from said agents.  Take a number and wait endlessly to accomplish a task that only takes five minutes to complete.  Pray fervently that your number gets called before the joint closes early at 4 pm -- mid-week.  You are encouraged to schedule an appointment in advance -- they only see so many customers per day -- but doing so makes absolutely no difference as to when or whether you get helped.  Your tax dollars at work.

The Empire may once have been an efficient military organization.  This is not your Daddy's Imperium.  In fact, it is somewhat like another large (though much smaller) terrestrial organization.  Sam Walton founded his empire with a focus on customer service.  He opened his stores in small, rural towns and provided goods -- food, tools, toys, etc. -- that the isolated citizenry couldn't get from existing Mom and Pop businesses and would have to acquire either by mail order or by a long drive to a larger town.  Today's global retail giant is focused on pleasing shareholders rather than customers.  Upper management is ignorant of local conditions and customer needs.  Employees, who once enjoyed generous perks and benefits, are now treated to a one-size-fits-all approach that benefits the company rather than the worker.  They are thoroughly disposable.  That's the entity that Luke Skywalker & Company are fighting.  No wonder Stormtroopers are such inefficient soldiers.  They're getting skanked by both their officers and their opponents.

Edited October 26, 2019 by seneschal
Add info

[seneschal]

2.  If At First You Don't Succeed, You're Dead

We've seen it throughout the Star Wars franchise.  One of Darth Vader's or Kylo Ren's underlings -- always a veteran officer or civil servant -- makes a decision or takes an action the boss dislikes and is summarily murdered and replaced with an instantly promoted junior employee.  This policy is apparently approved by upper management because no one since Grand Moff Tarkin has ever attempted to restrain it.

"What's the problem?," you say.  This is the Evil Empire, after all.  James Bond foe SPECTRE has a similar human resources strategy.  Terror motivates henchmen to peak performance, doesn't it?  Well, the issue is that Darth Vader -- First Servant of the Emperor -- is systematically culling the Imperial forces of their most experienced leaders.  Officers are not living to learn from their mistakes.  That means that the Rebels are always up against inexperienced Imperial commanders, amateurs.  Assuming that FN-2187 manages to survive the latest skirmish, he's already at advantage during the next confrontation.

Edited October 26, 2019 by seneschal

[SDLeary]

1 hour ago, seneschal said:

Three Reasons the Empire Tends To Lose

Star Wars protagonists tend to be brave, noble, self-sacrificing types.  However, it is possible that the Rebellion could send out Homer Simpson and Lou Costello to fight the good fight and still win.  Here's why:

1.  Walmart Syndrome

Remember Moff Tarkin boasting that the remnants of the Imperial Senate could be safely swept away because the bureaucracy would hold things together?  Now think about how things are at your local Department of Public Safety or Department of Motor Vehicles.  Limited operating hours, nine windows but only two customer service agents on duty, an extremely leisurely work pace from said agents.  Take a number and wait endlessly to accomplish a task that only takes five minutes to complete.  Pray fervently that your number gets called before the joint closes early at 4 pm -- mid-week.  You are encouraged to schedule an appointment in advance -- they only see so many customers per day -- but doing so makes absolutely no difference as to when or whether you get helped.  Your tax dollars at work.

The Empire may once have been an efficient military organization.  This is not your Daddy's Imperium.  In fact, it is somewhat like another large (though much smaller) terrestrial organization.  Sam Walton founded his empire with a focus on customer service.  He opened his stores in small, rural towns and provided goods -- food, tools, toys, etc. -- that the isolated citizenry couldn't get from existing Mom and Pop businesses and would have to acquire either by mail order or by a long drive to a larger town.  Today's global retail giant is focused on pleasing shareholders rather than customers.  Upper management is ignorant of local conditions and customer needs.  Employees, who once enjoyed generous perks and benefits, are now treated to a one-size-fits-all approach that benefits the company rather than the worker.  They are thoroughly disposable.  That's the entity that Luke Skywalker & Company are fighting.  No wonder Stormtroopers are such inefficient soldiers.  They're getting skanked by both their officers and their opponents.

Someone at Disney SOOO needs to make a comedy based on this!

SDLeary

[seneschal]

3.  I Can Micro-Manage That For You

Both George Lucas' Evil Empire and Traveller's Third Imperium were inspired by Isaac Asimov's original Galactic Empire, the setting of his Foundation trilogy (Foundation, Foundation and Empire, Second Foundation).  The Star Wars version and the Asimov polity do share some similarities.  They both encompass the population of an entire galaxy.  They are wealthy, culturally and technologically advanced, not necessarily concerned with citizens' individual rights and freedoms.  They both tend to go huge, whether we're talking about architecture, engineering projects, or starships.  That's in part because of the technology available at the time Asimov was writing his novels.  When you are talking about bus bars and vacuum tubes, bigger really is better.

"The more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers."

On the other hand, they have an essential difference in how they approach the management  of their territory, what I will call the ancient Persian model and the Communist Chinese model.  Long before McDonald's the Persian Empire had the whole franchise thing down.  The Emperor was literally "King of Kings" because the provinces that acknowledged his rule were actually run by sub-kings, satraps, changed with collecting what amounted to federal taxes,  contributing their share of trained men and funding to the imperial army, and maintaining public order.  As long as he could manage to do those things a satrap's job was pretty cushy, because he was relieving the Boss of worry and responsibility.  The Persian Empire was a rather cosmopolitan and multicultural place.  With his military and bank account well maintained the Emperor didn't care what language his subjects spoke, or who or what they worshipped, or what regional and local customs they observed. Of course, if a riot or rebellion broke out the satrap's name was mud, and he and his severed head would soon be planted in the mud.  Traveller's Third Imperium is like the Persian model, while Asimov's Galactic Empire is sort of a more laid-back Roman Empire, firm but not outrageously cruel.  And it is very stable.  The Galactic Empire has ensured peaceful and orderly civilization for 12,000 years -- and even when it falls the fall takes 500 years and the people affected barely notice.

Lucas' Empire is a different beast.

Edited October 26, 2019 by seneschal

[Sir_Godspeed]

Another important aspect is something that plagues a lot of authoritarian and totalitarian states: inefficiency, infighting, sycophanty.

When there is one supreme ruler that decides who rises or falls in the ranks, then essentially all politics boils down to pleasing this despot, which includes hiding failures rather than fixing them, pumping up numbers instead of truthfully reporting deficits, backstabbing colleagues instead of jointly taking credit, etc. etc.

This glaring inefficiency was well-documented during both the Ultra-Nationalist regime in Japan, under the purges of Stalinist Soviet Union, or during the Third Reich.

This ties into the point of "If At First You Don't Succeed, You're Dead", but goes beyond just field operations and into stuff like fiscal policy, project management, law enforcement, logistics and commerce, and all sorts of things.

The Empire is likely quite shoddily put together by the time of the original trilogy - which does help explain why it collapsed so quickly after the figurehead died (of course, Disney in the new continuity had to invent this really eye-rolling Der Untergang scenario where the Emperor decided that his followers should unwittingly destroy the Empire after he was gone, so eh... I prefer the political collapse with infighting Diadochi scenario of the old expanded universe.)

Edited October 26, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Joerg]

I have never been quite clear about the extent to which local enforcers of the Empire were licensed to graft (or rather, to put extra strain in addition to the dues to the Empire) on their little pocket of it.

"He came as a poor man to a rich province, he left a poor province as a rich man" (paraphrasing Velleius Paterculus' verdict on Varus' term as governor of Syria)

Killing the messenger syndrome and venting your frust on henchmen "too inept to perform the perfectly reasonable impossible task" appears to be a part of US work ethics, as per "The Apprentice", and to make an institution more evil than your day to day workplace it seems one has to go over the top with this in fiction.

13 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This glaring inefficiency was well-documented during both the Ultra-Nationalist regime in Japan, under the purges of Stalinist Soviet Union, or during the Third Reich.

You might want to add McCarthy's reign of terror in the USA to this list - another senseless decimation of the most innovative minds of their time. Or the current Hire and Fire disaster in Pennsylvania Avenue.

[seneschal]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

You might want to add McCarthy's reign of terror in the USA to this list - another senseless decimation of the most innovative minds of their time. Or the current Hire and Fire disaster in Pennsylvania Avenue.

Re:  Joseph McCarthy.  History and time have demonstrated that perhaps we've been unfair to poor, old Joe no matter what Hollywood, the news media and academia keep proclaiming about him.  It is the folks who tend to be sympathetic to Communism telling the story, after all.  Following the fall of the Soviet empire, Russian documents were unearthed that confirmed that McCarthy was telling the truth:  1950s America was indeed crammed with Communist agents bent on undermining our society, and many of those people had embedded themselves in (can't you guess?) Hollywood, the news media and academia.  Roosevelt and Truman had been aware of the infiltration in the 1930s but either didn't consider it a problem or were distracted by more urgent priorities.  McCarthy is accused of persecuting the hapless, defenseless Reds but most of that was actually done by the House (of Representatives) Un-American Activities Committee.  Joseph McCarthy was a member of the U.S. Senate.

Now, does that mean McCarthy was a warm and loving fellow you would want to invite over for Thanksgiving dinner?  Uhhhhh, maybe not.  But he was a patriot.  Which brings us to:

3a.  The Communist Chinese Model

We've seen that the Persian style of empire was pretty decentralized and afforded its subjects a modicum of freedom even if it didn't provide them with representative government and democracy.  The King of Kings was concerned about your obedience and your ability to pay your taxes.  He didn't try to tell you what to think or how to raise your kids.

Modern Communist empires are the opposite.  They not only want you to obey and pay, they want you to like it  and tell all your neighbors and friends how much you adore the State for taking away your liberty and paycheck.  China is a prime example.  And George Lucas' Empire tends to be like China.  Don't want to belabor the China angle because we want to stay focused on Star Wars.  But it has become a high-tech tyranny that uses its advanced gear to attempt to monitor and control each one of its roughly 1.4 billion citizens.  That's expensive, difficult, ties down a lot of government employees, generally generates a lot of work that you wouldn't have to do under a different management style.  And that's what the Empire is doing.  Ever notice that all Imperial officers of any rank are always stressed out?  No one seems to be enjoying his or her rank, position, luxury land speeder, art-or high-fidelity-filled private condo on the high-status end of the ship.  Why engage in ruthless conquest if you don't get to wallow in the ill-gotten fruits of your efforts?

Taken together, these three factors may be why the Empire (like George Lucas and Disney) seems out of fresh ideas.  "The Rebels  destroyed our first Death Star.  Oh, I know!  We will build another one, only BIGGER, twice!"  With a Senior Staff like that, who needs enemies?

Edited October 26, 2019 by seneschal

[Joerg]

32 minutes ago, seneschal said:

1950s America was indeed crammed with Communist agents bent on undermining our society, and many of those people had embedded themselves in (can't you guess?) Hollywood, the news media and academia.  

Sure. But going after scientists with a conscience like Oppenheimer was purely and simply fascist.

And somehow the Russians managed to do it better this time, infiltrating the White House.

Calling him a patriot doesn't make old Joe any less of a monster on par with Eichmann.

 

Quote

3a.  The Communist Chinese Model

We've seen that the Persian style of empire was pretty decentralized and afforded its subjects a modicum of freedom even if it didn't provide them with representative government and democracy.  The King of Kings was concerned about your obedience and your ability to pay your taxes.  He didn't try to tell you what to think or how to raise your kids.

Or demand to be worshiped as a god (although he did accept this when offered by the Egyptian priesthood).

Quote

Modern Communist empires are the opposite.  They not only want you to obey and pay, they want you to like it  and tell all your neighbors and friends how much you adore the State for taking away your liberty and paycheck.  China is a prime example.  And George Lucas' Empire tends to be like China.

 

Whereas the Trade Federation oligarchy led by the Kochs has kept your paycheck stable while exploding the cost, indenturing the population of the USA abusing the very pension fonds that were supposed to create social security for them. They suborned the Bible Belt Taliban by allowing them to throw the first stone against any dissidents to their "pro-life" indoctrination, and use them to destroy any trace of trust in science or provable facts. Different methods, same outcome.

 

There appears to be a strong form of speciesism in the Empire, too - or why are the only non-human people of influence Sith?

The imperial army and fleet is completely human, and not for a sensible reason as the police force in Farscape.

 

Edited October 26, 2019 by Joerg

[Sir_Godspeed]

Comparisons to real-world analogues does often end up in discussing those real-world things instead of the main topic. GG.

[seneschal]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Comparisons to real-world analogues does often end up in discussing those real-world things instead of the main topic. GG.

Yes, we want to stay focused on Star Wars.  Besides, Joerg, how do you know I'm not one of THEM?  😱

(It's OK, really.  I'll just place the pod outside your window tonight and you won't feel a thing.). 😉

[Joerg]

14 minutes ago, seneschal said:

Yes, we want to stay focused on Star Wars.  Besides, Joerg, how do you know I'm not one of THEM?  😱

I don't. I'm ready to take the flak...

14 minutes ago, seneschal said:

(It's OK, really.  I'll just place the pod outside your window tonight and you won't feel a thing.). 😉

Accidental drone release in my region might lead to some raised eyebrows...

 

But seriously, take a look at the functionaries of the Empire. Some black-ops work is given to non-human mercenaries, and the majority of the Storm Troopers might be second generation clones (assuming that the first generation was fertile, which might be regarded as a design flaw, or otherwise a continued mail order after the Republic became the Empire).

So, who are the main minions of the emperor?

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

But seriously, take a look at the functionaries of the Empire. Some black-ops work is given to non-human mercenaries, and the majority of the Storm Troopers might be second generation clones (assuming that the first generation was fertile, which might be regarded as a design flaw, or otherwise a continued mail order after the Republic became the Empire).

 

According to my days of browsing Wookieepedia, most clones were phased out by the time of the original trilogy, and were replaced by volunteer stormtroopers.

This was the old continuity, of course, so it may or may not have any weight today.

Also, I never bothered to remember the sources, because... well, fan wiki-trawling.

[seneschal]

Twi'leks

Also known as Rutians or Rylothians, the Twi'lek are tall, willowy "bumpy forehead" humanoids native to the Outer Rim planet of Ryloth.  Because of galactic geography they frequently find themselves thrust into conflicts between the Galactic Empire and the Rebellion.

Their most distinctive physical feature is a pair of thick prehensile tentacles that grow from the base of their skulls called "lekka". These lekka can also grow from the crown of their heads, and some rare individuals have four.  Twi'leks come in a broad variety of skin tones ranging from pasty white to bright poison frog colors.  Females have cone-shaped auditory organs while men posses normal human ears.

For cultural reasons, men tend to file their teeth into sharp points.  Females are considered beautiful by humans and are commonly sold as slaves.  Twi'leks are perfectly capable of mating and producing healthy children with humans.  In addition to their language and Galactic Basic, they can also speak a kind of sign language with their lekka.

All info from starwars.fandom.com.

Stats/skills -- Mechanically, Twi'leks are indistinguishable from regular human player-characters, except they have an extra pair of arms.  You could dig through the Big Gold Book's chapter on assorted powers to try to model that.  But it would be simpler and easier for the Game Master to occasionally allow a Twi'lek character to to perform some action that a person with only two arms just couldn't do.

Update:  After consultation with my fellow gamers, we will give Twi'lek characters 2d6+6 or 2d6+8 (GM's call) APP/CHA because humans in the Star Wars universe consider them so drop-dead gorgeous.  The jury is still out on whether lekka are actually useful or whether they just dangle.  I am inclined, based on what we see in the movies, to let them just dangle.

Edited October 27, 2019 by seneschal
Add info

[Sir_Godspeed]

Lekka are prehensile? I can't remember that EVER being brought up in any of the SW stuff I've watched or read. Huh.

EDIT: Also I thought they were called "lekku", but apparently I got that wrong.

I don't know what systems you use, but giving them a charisma/charm bonus might be a possibility, as they are seen as attractive (the women moreso, but I remember some stuff about the men commonly being sought as dancers as well, might be some more fan-made ideas). Obviously, there is also the the issue of slave trade and in-universe fetishizing of twi'lek women, but that's less of a stat thing and more something that needs to some out in actual roleplay.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[seneschal]

I don't know.  Should we take a vote?  Twi'leks get APP/CHA of 2d6+6.and/or a shot at having an extra set of arms hanging from the backs of their heads?  🥴

We've never seen them do anything but dangle in the movies.  I don't know about TV shows like Clone Wars.  But according to Wookiepedia, lekka are supposed to be fully functional manipulatory limbs.  Otherwise it is like having calamari for hair.   🤨 🤔

Edited October 27, 2019 by seneschal

[Joerg]

11 minutes ago, seneschal said:

We've never seen them do anything but dangle in the movies.  I don't know about TV shows like Clone Wars.  But according to Wookiepedia, lekka are supposed to be fully functional manipulatory limbs.  Otherwise it is like having calamari for hair.   🤨 🤔

The Twilek dancer sacrificed at Jabba's court let those tentacles swirl, but I can't recall lany manipulation performed by those "limbs". But then, those things would be a puppeteer's nightmare, and any such manipulation would probably go the Davy Jones way.

Having calamari for hair... do these extra limbs have their own brains, like octopuses do? This would also make Twilek mentally different from humans.

Interbreeding with Twilek - could it be that the Twilek already are some form of hybrid species from interbreeding with or otherwise assimilating humans? Are those head tentacles a dominant trait?

[seneschal]

Not sure. A lot of the family stuff comes from Clone Wars and/or Rebels, neither of which I've had the opportunity to see.  Apparently there is a Twi'lek hybrid character in the mix who has to deal with parental issues.

But I feel you.  Before starting my write-up research I had only seen the dancing girl Oola and Jabba the Hutt's majordomo Bib Fortuna, both from Return of the Jedi.  I assumed the head tentacles would be some sort of brain extension and that BRP characters would enjoy INT of 4d6 or 5d6.  Fortuna had to do something to gain his position, didn't he?  But nope, it is either rubbery hair or an extra pair of limbs useful for those extra busy mornings where you've got to finish the boss's pet project and get the kids to school on time.

[seneschal]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Accidental drone release in my region might lead to some raised eyebrows...

Pod people need love, too, you know.  Well, that and maybe some Miracle Grow every other week.