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seneschal

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Fermi paradox = Star Wars!!!

The thing that frustrates me is that we could have had a functioning moon base by 1986.  We just didn't do it.  Now we are finally talking about getting started on a base in 2024 -- after national elections that once again could toss our 1960s ambitions back into the scrap heap.

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On the topic of interbreeding:

Star Wars uses the term "near-human*" for a variety of species that are your garden variety of "rubber-forehead aliens". You know, stuff like Zabraki (Maul's species) or Chiss (Admiral Thrawn's species). If it looks so much like a human that a human actor could play it in live action with only a few minor prosthetics, then chances are it's a near-human in the background (at least the old one).

It's been a while since I read up on this stuff, but I believe the canonical explanation was that all these species originated from populations of proto-humans being abducated/transplanted throughout the galaxy by whatever "ancient forerunner space empire" was most in vogue at the time of writing. Usually pre-Rakata, iirc.

As far as I know, this is a similar explanation for the same phenomenon in Star Trek and Stargate, because turns out that bloated sci-fi franchises tend to use a lot of the same tropes.

Anyway, mechanically, not only does this mean that there might be some inter-species fertility (since these are either sub-species or species close enough to maintain compatible genetics), but of course that much of the architecture and equipment in Star Wars can function with a one-size-(mostly)-fits all proportions.

It seems like the question of fertility should be one answered on an individual gaming group basis. If some players want their characters to be hybrids, or have mixed heritage, or even have their characters hook up with kids, then at least there is some background basis for this. Whether they decide that mixed children are infertile, or that mixed children default to one look or the other, or have mixed characteristics I wouldn't personally want to force from a rules perspective.

(*Kind of a human-chauvinist term, but they are the most numerous single species in the Republic/Empire, so it's unsurprising. :P )

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That's the reason I always shook my head when some folks claimed the original movie was racist because too many of the humans were Caucasian (filmed in London; what did you expect?).  I mean, you had Wookies and Jawas and insect-men and a bunch of other sophonts that defied description.  How much more racially diverse and multicultural could you get?  Lando Calrissian was a great character to add in Empire Strikes Back, but he was great because of his personality and backstory, not because his skin tone.  But I think that sort of thinking is why Twi'lek characters come in such a bewildering variety of colors.

Edited by seneschal
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51 minutes ago, seneschal said:

That's the reason I always shook my head when some folks claimed the original movie was racist because too many of the humans were Caucasian (filmed in London; what did you expect?).  I mean, you had Wookies and Jawas and insect-men and a bunch of other sophonts that defied description.  How much more racially diverse and multicultural could you get?  Lando Calrissian was a great character to add in Empire Strikes Back, but he was great because of his personality and backstory, not because his skin tone.  But I think that sort of thinking is why Twi'lek characters come in such a bewildering variety of colors.

The difference is between in-universe representation and out-of-universe representation. People who make these (imho very valid) complaints make it as a criticism of the wider media industry, both in front of and behind the camera, and focus on the impact of actual, real human beings. So having a dizzying array of aliens isn't going to do much for them (although having actors of color portray various groups, such as Klingons in Trek for example, does count in the sense that it gets actors in front of the cameras, even if they are playing a possibly iffy trope and being othered as non-humans).

Basically, the in-universe perspective doesn't usually factor into the representation critique, as it tends to be rooted in real-world issues and disparities. This is something nerds/geeks like myself don't always "get", because we're so immersed in the fictional world that we consider its internal working moreso than maybe the industry workings that produce these fictional universe.

From an in-universe perspective, it can create some weird dissonances though. For example, the Resistance in the new trilogy is very diverse in terms of human beings (which, it should be emphasized, is a good thing for the industry and in a wider cultural sense), but it has almost no speaking roles for the non-human aliens - which creates this weird scenario where the Resistance - by in-universe standards - comes off as weirdly speciecist and alien-exclusionary. Admiral Akhbar seems to be the only ranking non-human, and he gets killed off without any remark or note in TLJ, leaving an almost human-only remnant. It's as if we have two human-dominated groups in the Resistance and the First Order duking it out without really considering non-humans are beings with active agency beyond being set dressing*. It's... kinda iffy, imho. But then again, as I said, I am one of those nerds who can get in-universe-myopic.

(*Which, in an industry-sense makes perfect sense, because that's what they almost literally are - but from a narrative sense it gets weird.)

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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Internally, I now explain lack of on-screen representation as an expression of the in-universe politics.  The Star Wars movies essentially document the internecine conflicts among the human-dominated backwaters of the galaxy, and the white-dominated human backwaters at that.  The big picture?  What we're seeing on screen ain't the only game in town, and is presented only from the view of those embroiled in the conflict.  Kind of like how in Firefly, in a 'Verse populated heavily by people of Chinese decent, there are none aboard Serenity.  Why?  Because Mal is a devoted Browncoat, vocally and violently opposed to the Alliance, which includes unification with Chinese-settled moons.  He'll seemingly travel anywhere and take almost any risk if there's money involved, but in the whole series we never see him so much as speak with an Asian, much less set foot on a Chinese-dominated moon and parley with an Asian client.  And why does he resent Simon and River so much, the only people with an even remotely Chinese-sounding name?  See?  Simple -- Rugged individualism aside, Malcolm Reynolds is a racist.

This sort of thing has been incorporated into some games, such as Traveller's Third Imperium with the Solomani (South African-styled Apartheidists, not soviets) in which the sphere of influence is explicitly human-dominated and alien races are relegated to second-class roles in society.

So, yes, what we're seeing on screen is exactly what's happening from the POV of the characters we're following.  Which is why I'm (sort of) okay with the spin-off "A Star Wars Story" movies we're beginning to see.

And while we're on this subject...

18 hours ago, seneschal said:

Droids

You are a sentient machine created to serve humanity.

You know, I think you're right.  I can't think of anyone in Star Wars, aside from humans, who owns an artificially intelligent being.  And, again, white humans.  Even in Solo: A Star Wars Story,  Lando Calrissian's relationship with L3-37 turned out to be, well, a relationship. And kind of a creepy one.

!i!

Edited by Ian Absentia

carbon copy logo smallest.jpg  ...developer of White Rabbit Green

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50 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

You know, I think you're right.  I can't think of anyone in Star Wars, aside from humans, who owns an artificially intelligent being.  And, again, white humans.  Even in Solo: A Star Wars Story,  Lando Calrissian's relationship with L3-37 turned out to be, well, a relationship. And kind of a creepy one.

 

The Nemoidians (Trade Federation) created an entire droid army. As did the Techno Union (Skakoans, wookieepedia tells me). And of course Jabba famously accepted C3PO as a gift and used him as a translator.

There are probably more examples out there, but overall I think the idea is that droid usage is fairly common, but since we mostly follow human actors, we also mostly see human-droid ownership relations.

I'm also not really sure if it's correct to call the Galactic Civil War (original trilogy) or the First Order Conflict (new trilogy) a "backwater". I have no problem seeing that there is more to the galaxy than these conflicts, and I can also go along with that these conflicts mean more to humans than they mean to others (even if the old expanded universe worked pretty hard to show just how human-supremacist the Empire was), but "backwater"? Eh, not according to most published maps and such I've seen. Human bias? Definitely, though.

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2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The Nemoidians (Trade Federation) created an entire droid army. 

Weird how I forgot about that whole fiasco.  However, Lucas' nomenclature aside, were the units of the Droid Army actually sentient, or simply autonomous?  That's a worthwhile distinction.

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

As did the Techno Union (Skakoans, wookieepedia tells me). 

The who now?  Were they the ones who actually built the Droid Army?

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

And of course Jabba famously accepted C3PO as a gift and used him as a translator.

Yeah, but honestly, what else might Jabba have planned on using him for?  And that's hardly an institutional employment of droids.

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'm also not really sure if it's correct to call the Galactic Civil War (original trilogy) or the First Order Conflict (new trilogy) a "backwater". 

I'm increasingly fond of the idea that there are other, perhaps larger and more vigorous galactic governments out there, watching the Rebel/Empire - New Republic/First Order conflicts as contemporary Western governments watch conflicts in the Middle East or North Africa.  We get hints of these other governments, but never actually see them on screen.

!i!

Edited by Ian Absentia

carbon copy logo smallest.jpg  ...developer of White Rabbit Green

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2 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Kind of like how in Firefly, in a 'Verse populated heavily by people of Chinese decent, there are none aboard Serenity.  Why?  Because Mal is a devoted Browncoat, vocally and violently opposed to the Alliance, which includes unification with Chinese-settled moons.  He'll seemingly travel anywhere and take almost any risk if there's money involved, but in the whole series we never see him so much as speak with an Asian, much less set foot on a Chinese-dominated moon and parley with an Asian client.  And why does he resent Simon and River so much, the only people with an even remotely Chinese-sounding name?  See?  Simple -- Rugged individualism aside, Malcolm Reynolds is a racist.

Not to derail the thread, but no. 

You have Zoë and Book. You have people of asian descent in the markets and in the hospital when the ship reaches a core world. Mal does speak the "Trade Talk" cant that includes Chinese words and phrases. I see this as much more an urban vs rural thing... much like what you see in current American culture in the rivalry/hostility between the heavily urban coastal regions and the mostly rural interior.

SDLeary

Edited by SDLeary
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31 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

You have Zoë and Book.

I'm referring to Asians, specifically Chinese.  Just because he's particular about it -- or discriminating -- doesn't mean he's not a racist.

31 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

Mal does speak the "Trade Talk" cant that includes Chinese words and phrases.

But he still won't do business with them.  I'm sure he has plausible enough reasons.

Granted, had the show continued, there would've been plenty of opportunity for character growth in which Mal could've come to grips with his racism.  Pity for lost opportunity.

!i!

Edited by Ian Absentia
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2 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Weird how I forgot about that whole fiasco.  However, Lucas' nomenclature aside, were the units of the Droid Army actually sentient, or simply autonomous?  That's a worthwhile distinction.

I don't think it's a clear line between the two in Star Wars. I remember reading interviews with Lucas where he straight out says that none of the droids in Star Wars are actually sapient, they are just programmed with different personalities - but then later in the expanded universes we have all sorts of shenanigans, including droid rebellions and force user droids and so on. 

The basic B2 battle droids were able to wisecrack, which is obviously mostly for the children in the audience, and I believe was explained away as poor programming or something in the background books. The more advanced droid commanders were sometimes more stoic and robotic, and other times more human-like in their behaviour. Hard to tell, really.
 

2 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Weird how I forgot about that whole fiasco.  However, Lucas' nomenclature aside, were the units of the Droid Army actually sentient, or simply autonomous?  That's a worthwhile distinction.

The Techno-Union was one of the other forgettable Separatist sub-groups like the InterGalactic Banking Clan and whatever other groups got put together with the Trade Federation. They designed (and possibly built) the "super battle droids", which are the ones in dark grey, with no neck and wrist-mounted blasters. The Geonosians (the desert planet locust-like people in Attack of the Clones) also produced them.
 

2 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

I'm increasingly fond of the idea that there are other, perhaps larger and more vigorous galactic governments out there, watching the Rebel/Empire - New Republic/First Order conflicts as contemporary Western governments watch conflicts in the Middle East or North Africa.  We get hints of these other governments, but never actually see them on screen.

 

Well, in the new continuity all bets are off, but in the old maps the "known galaxy" (most of which is part of the Republic and later the Empire) covers about two-thirds of the galaxy. The third, hidden part, is known as the Unknown Regions, and is unexplored due to a lack of stable hyperlanes.

https://i.redd.it/97xct8ap4g411.jpg

The main large empires I can think of from there is the Chiss Ascendancy (also verified to exist in the new continuity) and maybe the Killiks (intelligent hivemind space bugs) and a few others. None of them are stated to be as big as the Republic though. And then there are the Yuuzhan Vong, which were extra-galactic invaders who bio-engineered all their equipment, space vessels and weapons, were cut off from the force, and stripped planets of their resources. I'm pretty sure they aren't canon anymore though.

There might be more, I'm not an expert on this stuff - and of course you can pretty much pick and choose what you like and don't like. Old Star Wars canon was of VERY uneven quality.

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8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

It's been a while since I read up on this stuff, but I believe the canonical explanation was that all these species originated from populations of proto-humans being abducated/transplanted throughout the galaxy by whatever "ancient forerunner space empire" was most in vogue at the time of writing. Usually pre-Rakata, iirc.

As far as I know, this is a similar explanation for the same phenomenon in Star Trek and Stargate, because turns out that bloated sci-fi franchises tend to use a lot of the same tropes.
 

 

Traveller also had the Ancients, who seeded humans on different planets (Solomani, Zhodani, Imperials, Darrians and a whole lot of others who never independently made it into space) and created the Vargr and the Aslan (?) through genetic engineering etc.

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4 minutes ago, Questbird said:

Traveller also had the Ancients, who seeded humans on different planets (Solomani, Zhodani, Imperials, Darrians and a whole lot of others who never independently made it into space) and created the Vargr and the Aslan (?) through genetic engineering etc.

Me think the Elerians in Master of Orion were the produce of genetic experiment on ancient human by either Psilons or Orions or Antarians hey?!

And so would it be in my campaign!

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18 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Second, there's this whole thing with the dark and light dice. you always have the option of tapping the dark dice for fast strong power... at a price. mechanically seductive! you, the player, are tempted - and everyone rolls these dice, although they are of much greater import for force users. After all, the force flows through all things... Similarly, you can be a Dathomiri Witch and tap that white die. It's a struggle to be good, to mend your ways. Oh lord to give up that power!.

 

It sounds interesting. I'm all for mechanics to simulate the 'quicker, easier, more seductive' Dark side of the Force, or the struggle to keep to the light.

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On 10/29/2019 at 7:04 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

oof well I don't have my books, I moved

it has to do with the way skills work in the game system

first, force users choose a force tree in place of a third talent "tree", so you can be a Pilot or a Stormtrooper who awakens to the Force. it means that force powers are awesome but also that non-force users aren't like mooks facing Superman; there's structural balance.

Second, there's this whole thing with the dark and light dice. you always have the option of tapping the dark dice for fast strong power... at a price. mechanically seductive! you, the player, are tempted - and everyone rolls these dice, although they are of much greater import for force users. After all, the force flows through all things... Similarly, you can be a Dathomiri Witch and tap that white die. It's a struggle to be good, to mend your ways. Oh lord to give up that power!.

Also, there's a massive diversity in force users. First, some force users are gonna be really spectacular at murdering people, while others are gonna be better at manipulation and negotiation. Second, different force users have different fighting styles because they benefit their style: this is a long conceit of the series and it's a fantastic use of fiction as mechanic. There's also different powers taught by different cabals and movements; a Dathomiri Witch (I love themmmmm) is a heavily Dark-Sided cult with specific powers but you can learn new ones if, say, a Sith Lord takes you on as a follower.

They also put a lot of emphasis on Right Time Right Force, so their first books were about a period when there were no Jedi, no teachers, just Vader and the Emperor. All the light-side force users are self-taught weirdos or turned dark-siders. The next force-focused book is after the Rebellion gets moving and Luke has returned. People are reopening Jedi temples. There's not formal Jedi training, but there's actual temples and books. Light-side users are stronger and have formed little training groups on their own.

This is very ingenious. Also sort of an indictment of microtransactions when I think about it. :P

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I'm a big fan of WEG's (actually Chaoisum's) D6 system. It has a few bugs, and doesn't  handle the Force , Lightsaber duels or Starships that well, but it mostly works. Ironically 1st edtion actually handled the force and lightsabers better than the later editions, Also D6 suffered from being written before a lot of details were worked out (indeed WEG actually did a lot of the filling in), and some things, such as lightsaber forms hadn't been invented yet, but overall it is a good system for Star Wars.

 

As for stats, I'd be inclined to learn towards a conversion from D6, as it would give us a nice shortcut to statting everything up. Maybe tap into D20 to fill out details that D6 doesn't cover (like mass so we can get SIZ stats).

Perhaps something streamlined like CoC7 rules might be better than standard BRP for this?

Edited by Atgxtg

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Maybe.  The problem is that I don't have access to any Star Wars rules except Mini Six and the faux Star Wars setting contained within.  I am away from my beloved game collection and am cobbling this all together with electronic copies of GORE, the BASIC Bestiary, the BRP Quick-Start Edition, and my best memories of the Big Gold Book.  Which I guess demonstrates how cross-compatible Chaosium's house system is.

Yeah, the Expanded Universe began with all the stuff WEG had to make up to make a role-playing game for a movie series that was still ongoing while the game and its supplements were being produced.  See previous comments about Marvel Comics' Star Wars series.

But so far I've done all the write-ups and a lot of the commentary.  Any time you all want to jump in with material, whether written with OpenQuest or CoC 7th, feel free. It's getting kinda lonely in here.  ;)

Edited by seneschal
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3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:.

Perhaps something streamlined like CoC7 rules might be better than standard BRP for this?

If you are after Zero-to-Hero, that would work... but so would normal BRP.

I would think Pendragon would be a better fit, as even if the character seemingly comes from nothing, they are supposed to be a more heroic figure. This would also allow, if desired, to model the characters personality and flaws, giving the GM something else to work with. And you could have Chival... Force Bonuses, and so on. Of course, personality traits and passions could simply be bolted on to any BRP core system, but its mostly already done with Pendragon as base.

SDLeary

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Banthas

Banthas are mastodonian quadruped herbivores native to the desert planet Tatooine.  They are used as mounts by the Tusken Raiders.  A typical beast is about the size and weight of a terrestrial Indian elephant.  They are covered with thick, shaggy brown fur to protect them from the planet's twin suns and have broad padded feet for striding across loose sand.  Banthas have huge maws crammed with blunt teeth, and their heads are topped with massive curved horns sort of like those of bighorn sheep.  Given what we've seen of Tatooine in the movies, it is hard to image where the Sand People find enough fodder for these huge creatures.

STR  6d6+30  (36)

CON  3D6+18  (28-29)

SIZ  6D6+36  (39)

POW  2D6+6  (13)

DEX  3D6  (10-11)

M0V  8

HP  49

MP  13

DB  +4D6

AP  8 points (thick hide plus heavy fur)

Attacks:  Trample 50%, 1d6+DB; Defense 40%; 1d8+1/2DB; Horns 40%, 2d6+1/2DB; Bite 30%, 1d6+1/2DB

Skills:  Listen 60%, Sense 60%, Find Water 70%

 

Based on the Elephant stats in the BASIC Bestiary.  I don't know why an animal would have Magic Points, but I suppose a confrontation with a Force-sensitive beast would be an interesting challenge for Our Heroes.  :D

Edited by seneschal
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5 hours ago, SDLeary said:

If you are after Zero-to-Hero, that would work... but so would normal BRP.

I would think Pendragon would be a better fit, as even if the character seemingly comes from nothing, they are supposed to be a more heroic figure. This would also allow, if desired, to model the characters personality and flaws, giving the GM something else to work with. And you could have Chival... Force Bonuses, and so on. Of course, personality traits and passions could simply be bolted on to any BRP core system, but its mostly already done with Pendragon as base.

SDLeary

Pendragon has it's own hurdles though. Namely the fact that there is no way to block/absorb damage other than shields and armor. We'd need to change the focus of the system so that it wouldn't rely on armored warriors with shields. We don't want the PCs to need to get armored up just to survive. Oh, and we'd probably need to deal with the effective skill cap in some way. Two Jedi masters with Lightsaber at 50 sort of breaks Pendragon. We'd probably need some sort of bump down rule.

It could be interesting though.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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"Bump down."  Sounds like disco, which is thoroughly era appropriate.  Bump on down, baby!

On the other hand, maybe you could redefine armor and shield as some sort of psychic force field, or perhaps a really skillful lightsaber Parry.

Edited by seneschal
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5 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Pendragon has it's own hurdles though. Namely the fact that there is no way to block/absorb damage other than shields and armor. We'd need to change the focus of the system so that it wouldn't rely on armored warriors with shields. We don't want the PCs to need to get armored up just to survive. Oh, and we'd probably need to deal with the effective skill cap in some way. Two Jedi masters with Lightsaber at 50 sort of breaks Pendragon. We'd probably need some sort of bump down rule.

It could be interesting though.

It would be simple to say that a light saber simply block X damage on a parry. This would be enough damage that it would also block/deflect blaster fire. X would naturally be less than whatever the max average of a PC could hit for, that way  you still have the struggles from the movies where arms, legs, and other parts get injured and singed. 

Clubs, fists, etc. do less lethal damage. Edged/pointy weapons and  energy weapons do real damage.

Also, BRP options bolt on to the Pendragon core just fine most of the time, just like back porting Traits and Passions works. 🤷‍♂️

Whatever core you use, you're still  going to have some work with the Starwars-isms.  I just think that PD is going to give you a bit more on the epic fight side (Tink Tink Tink Tink Tink Tink Boom, rather than Tink Tink Boom) :)

SDLeary

Edited by SDLeary
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8 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

It would be simple to say that a light saber simply block X damage on a parry. This would be enough damage that it would also block/deflect blaster fire. X would naturally be less than whatever the max average of a PC could hit for, that way  you still have the struggles from the movies where arms, legs, and other parts get injured and singed. 

Yes. The easy out would be that it blocks damage equal to the skill roll, or all the damage on a critical. But only a few characters wield lightsabers. What about the smugglers, princes, and Wookiees? I think we'd need to introduce a Dodge skill, and probably something like Force Points/Character points to ensure that PCs can survive.

8 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

Clubs, fists, etc. do less lethal damage. Edged/pointy weapons and  energy weapons do real damage.

But there is no way to defend against blaster attacks in Pendragon,, as written. We'd need to add something so that the PCs don't get killed in the first firefight. Probably Dodge per WEG. I think that would fit best with how Pendragon and BRP games work.

8 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

Also, BRP options bolt on to the Pendragon core just fine most of the time, just like back porting Traits and Passions works. 🤷‍♂️

Yup. That would solve a lot of it. As would returning to the old armor and shield values (half and twice the Pendragon values). Pendragon deliberately stresses armor over shields to bias the game in the knights favor. We would need to change that bias to favor rebel heroes. So we need to stress a defense for unarmored characters. 

8 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

Whatever core you use, you're still  going to have some work with the Starwars-isms.  I just think that PD is going to give you a bit more on the epic fight side (Tink Tink Tink Tink Tink Tink Boom, rather than Tink Tink Boom) :)

SDLeary

Actually I think Pendragon will give you less epic fights. More like Tink Boom. As written any hit against an unarmored opponent tends to be a major wound and incapacitates them. So rather than epic sword duels you get one hit fights. D6 has the same problem, at least since 2E. TO deal with those issues I'd suggest:

  • Allow characters to dodge blaster attacks. Make this a Dodge skill that starts at DEX. 
  • Medpacs would need to be pretty good. Something like 3d6 healing and the ability to offset the stat loss from major wounds. Yes I know, lots of Jedi lose hands, but the average attack in Pendragon will be a major wound, and we dont want Star Wars heroes to be loosing attributes every time they get hit.
  • For a Lightsaber Duel, instead of doing damage, the Jedi would fight for advantage, and when one side go a large enough advantage for an autowin, they would win the duel, killing or "disarming" their opponent. Most combatants' would try to break off the fight before it got to that point. I mean we could do a normal fight and give protection vales for a lightsaber, but we usually do see a lot of nicks in the films, and the ones we do see are deliberate displays of skill rather than what gets past the parry.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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