The Star Wars Mega-thread

[seneschal]

Stormy About Imperial Stormtroopers

WARNING!  Possible Minor Spoilers!  Not That They Matter At This Point.

After listening to various YouTube reviews I had decided to skip "The Rise of Skywalker."  "The Force Awakens" needed to go back to sleep, and "Rogue One" -- while well done -- was simply depressing, quite unlike the energetic, hopeful tone of the original trilogy.  However, when we went to the movies as a family during Christmas, RoS (in IMAX 3-D!!!) was the only thing available.  "Spies In Disguise" was full, and we decided to let "Frozen 2" go.  In addition, my wife bought me the 30th Anniversary reprint of the WEG Star Wars d6 RPG (30% discount!), and I later spent a whopping $1.10 to print out an army of Star Wars paper minis at the public library (why are Stormtroopers easier to find for free  than generic fantasy goblins?).  And all this got me thinking again about those ubiquitous Stormtroopers.

In "Star Wars" you weren't sure at first whether the skeleton-looking armored things were alive or not.  They might have been as robotic as R2D2.  Mid-film it seemed that they might be human since Our Heroes could slip into their armor -- but that wasn't a sure thing since stealthy sci-fi good guys had been hiding in robot outer shells at least since "The Phantom Empire" (1935).  Much later, the prequels established that Stormtroopers were mass-produced clones designed to mindlessly follow orders, which helped explain why they were such indifferent soldiers.  Suddenly in "Force Awakens" FN-whatever peels off his gear during combat and flees rather than participate in a massacre.  He later claims he was kidnapped and forced into First Order military service as a child, a nasty real-world practice that the former Empire never found necessary.  Now, in "Rise of Skywalker" we have whole contingents of forced-labor Stormtroopers-of-color risking instant death to lay down their arms out of conscience in the middle of battle -- and despite everything we've seen in eight movies about the martial competence of Stormtroopers they managed to defeat their officers and escape sans weapons, armor and powered vehicles.  Remember, they simultaneously all laid down their arms.  And their officers presumably didn't.  Hmmmm.

Since when do Stormtroopers possess cowardice (lookin' at you, FN) or morals or a reasonable sense of self-preservation?  Why make any of them sympathetic, or a member of a supposedly abused group, when they're the Bad Guys?  See, you can mow down hordes of Stormtroopers without guilt as long as they're faceless white male clones with conservative political leanings.  But their deaths seem much more plentiful and personal in RoS than in previous Star Wars films I've seen, multiple exploding Death Stars notwithstanding.  Since "Force Awakens," they're now innocent victims of Imperial ambition -- yet the alleged heroes of the tale murder them more aggressively, nay, eagerly than Luke, Han, et.al., ever did.  What next?  Lord of the Rings orcs and the White Witch's Narnian monsters are sympathetic victims, too?  Sure, and Count Dracula will retire to run a quiet  resort and care for his children.  Next ya'll will want to, I don't know, run Cthulhu for president or something!

[sladethesniper]

?? I am assuming you want your antagonists to be non-sympathetic things to be mowed down with moral impunity?  The FN storyline was kinda weak sauce  in the last three flicks, but in Rogue One, you learn that the Rebellion are pretty much terrorists and murderers...but they were presented as the good guys in the other films (minus Rogue One).  I don't know, I rather liked the fact that the Stormtroopers were humanized a bit.  The fact is that there are several types of Clone/Stormtroopers...the Kaminoan clones, the Spaarti flash clones, the actual Stormtrooper Corps using Humans, then some near humans (in the EU mostly), then the First Order Stormtroopers that were snagging kids and hypno-indoctrinated them.  I appreciated the fact that there was some humanization for the Stormtroopers.

-STS

[seneschal]

It doesn't fit the tone and morality of the rest of the series.  The Rebels were the good guys, resisting the ruthless Evil Empire.  Our Heroes didn't slaughter Imperial minions for sport, but the latter were clearly on the wrong side of the moral scale.  The heroes could defend themselves without remorse.  Just like Legolas could pick off cannibalistic orcs without shame or James Bond could eliminate SPECTRE agents that were trying to kill him anyway (not that he had qualms in the first place).

If you humanize and make sympathetic the heartless foot soldiers that casually murdered Luke Skywalker's family, an entire clan of Jawas, and the unresisting population of the planet Alderan, you've changed the dynamic and inner logic of the whole saga.  And, as I mentioned, that's exactly what happened in the last three movies.  The bloodthirsty troopers are now victims and the self-sacrificing Resistance fighters are ruthless killers.  With competent plotting and characterization (not in evidence in the sequels) that sort of thing might make an interesting story -- but it wouldn't be Star Wars.

FN-0000 is a missed opportunity, and as a character he never gets a break.  He refuses to participate in a massacre (good) but strips off his gear and runs away from Captain Phasma rather than fighting her and attempting to thwart her evil plans (is he a coward?).  He never gets to be the hero but is consistently depicted as incompetent comic relief (but we already have C3P0 for that).  In fact, the first thing that happens to him after his escape is that he gets beat up by a a girl half his size with no military training (Rey).  Later, it is implied that he is falling in love with Rey -- but since she is the Messiah-ess she's above such things even if FN wasn't merely the hired help.  Except she heals and kisses Kylo Ren, the emo villain wannabe who has only been trying to kill her for three movies.  Women!  Poor FN eventually meets a nubile former Stormtrooper with a life story similar to his own --  but the relationship goes nowhere and he STILL doesn't get the girl.  No fair!

Edited January 3, 2020 by seneschal

[Old Man Henerson]

1 hour ago, seneschal said:

It doesn't fit the tone and morality of the rest of the series.  The Rebels were the good guys, resisting the ruthless Evil Empire.  Our Heroes didn't slaughter Imperial minions for sport, but the latter were clearly on the wrong side of the moral scale.  The heroes could defend themselves without remorse.  Just like Legolas could pick off cannibalistic orcs without shame or James Bond could eliminate SPECTRE agents that were trying to kill him anyway (not that he had qualms in the first place).

If you humanize and make sympathetic the heartless foot soldiers that casually murdered Luke Skywalker's family, an entire clan of Jawas, and the unresisting population of the planet Alderan, you've changed the dynamic and inner logic of the whole saga.  And, as I mentioned, that's exactly what happened in the last three movies.  The bloodthirsty troopers are now victims and the self-sacrificing Resistance fighters are ruthless killers.  With competent plotting and characterization (not in evidence in the sequels) that sort of thing might make an interesting story -- but it wouldn't be Star Wars.

FN-0000 is a missed opportunity, and as a character he never gets a break.  He refuses to participate in a massacre (good) but strips off his gear and runs away from Captain Phasma rather than fighting her and attempting to thwart her evil plans (is he a coward?).  He never gets to be the hero but is consistently depicted as incompetent comic relief (but we already have C3P0 for that).  In fact, the first thing that happens to him after his escape is that he gets beat up by a a girl half his size with no military training (Rey).  Later, it is implied that he is falling in love with Rey -- but since she is the Messiah-ess she's above such things even if FN wasn't merely the hired help.  Except she heals and kisses Kylo Ren, the emo villain wannabe who has only been trying to kill her for three movies.  Women!  Poor FN eventually meets a nubile former Stormtrooper with a life story similar to his own --  but the relationship goes nowhere and he STILL doesn't get the girl.  No fair!

When I first saw the trailers for The Force Awakens, I thought that Fin was going to be the Jedi and Ray would be his companion. I thought it would be so cool to have a stormtrooper defect and become a Jedi, but that is not the film we got in the end.😑

In my opinion, though, I have not read much of it, Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy makes a much better sequel trilogy than what Disney made. The rebels have actually become a legitimate government, and the Empire is actually a splinter cell that does not have the capacity to make planets into super Death Stars.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Old Man Henerson
Wording

[Lloyd Dupont]

Star Wars is very much black and white and simplistic. At least it was the the original version ambition.

Not that I like that (In fact I don't), just saying.

[seneschal]

I'd go for a film version of "Splinter of the Mind's Eye."  Does it fit continuity and canon?  No, but then neither do the sequels.  😉

[sladethesniper]

I don't like simplistic morality.  I liked having all the sides being both good and bad.  Feels better, more natural, to me at least.  Just like all Orcs are not evil, all Imperials are not evil (at least in my interpretation).

As for Rey...well, she IS the grand-daughter of the most powerful Sith ever, who was literally going to possess her to continue his reign.  She is supposed to be OP.  Within the constraints of the universe, it made sense, to me.  Finn was trying to tell Rey that he is Force Sensitive, and that he kinda has the hots for her...but then so does Poe...kinda.  Instead of a weird love square, having Rey be a Force Diad with Kylo Ren (just like Bastila Shan and Revan) was a good way to solve that issue.  Because so many people hated the Rose/Finn story line (to the point that the actress, Kelly Marie Tran wanted her character cut out as much as possible), they dropped it and tried it with Jannah, which kinda seemed a bit more understandable (they have a lot more in common).

It is my third favorite SW movie...After ESB and Revenge of the Sith...

-STS

[seneschal]

Downloaded random free Star Wars paper minis and noticed they were close enough in scale to work alongside the usual Call of Cthulhu silhouettes.  That's ... unsettling.  The galaxy suddenly got much more dangerous!  😳

[g33k]

41 minutes ago, seneschal said:

Downloaded random free Star Wars paper minis and noticed they were close enough in scale to work alongside the usual Call of Cthulhu silhouettes.  That's ... unsettling.  The galaxy suddenly got much more dangerous!  😳

Specially for Jedi and Sith -- trying to imagine a "Force Sensitive" in proximity to the Mythos...🤯

[Simlasa]

3 hours ago, sladethesniper said:

I don't like simplistic morality.

Neither do I, generally... but SW was set up to emulate the old serials, and those very much were simplistic morality. The series drifted away from that scheme pretty quickly, but it's still the template I want out of them. More pulp action, less dramatic posturing.
I don't want 'deep' characters or storylines out of SW... and that's where I feel like the series tried to go, and failed. Like trying to turn an old Scooby Doo episode into Masterpiece Theater, the foundation isn't there. Instead, to me, it all comes off looking ridiculous... and not in the fun way of the first movie.

I still think the first Guardians of the Galaxy movie is the best Star Wars movie I've seen in decades.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Simlasa

[seneschal]

Just like Galaxy Quest was the best recent StarTrek movie.  You gotta love and respect the genre you're trying to emulate for your efforts to succeed.

[Questbird]

The Orville is a great Star Trek parody/homily show. I like it more than any Star Trek series I've seen recently.

With Star Wars and FN, I really didn't mind that he wanted to defect from the First Order, who were a sort of lame Empire wannabes anyway. I figured that such things could happen were part of the 'Awakening' of the Force which might have happened in the (temporary) absence of the Emperor. But Phasma and the rest of the stormtroopers were still just as evil and I didn't care at all about them getting shot up.

[seneschal]

Just for fun ...