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JaredS113

Gender neutral KAP character sheet

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I finally got KAP and the Great Pendragon Campaign, and in GDP it said you can have a knight of any sex, but the character sheet in KAP is phrased for only a male knight (though amusingly, the Woman sheet refers to "Spouse" instead of "Husband", where the Knight sheet uses "Wife").

So I tweaked the format and made a gender neutral version. The only things I left on (since I haven't played it yet!) is the reference to Other Lineage Men (any suggestions for a neutral phrase for that?) under Army, and I wasn't sure if the Chivalry Bonus marks for Personality Traits should be left on there, since they vary so much from the Gentlewoman Bonus marks, but this should be a for a "Knight". Also, several skills didn't match between the Knight and Woman character sheets, so I didn't know if those should be added as well. Finally, I could add Household Treasures onto the Knight sheet if that would help.

Character sheet attached:

King Arthur Pendragon gender neutral character sheet.pdf

 

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A more gender neutral term for Lineage Men would probably just be Esquires, I think, since they are nobles, who are of age, who are not knights.

 

As for skills, female Knights will use regular Knight stats, not Lady stats; this includes the Chivalry bonus. I do occasionally allow players of female knights to have it in their backstory that they were moved onto the Knightly track later on in life (so trained as a Lady up until say, age 14 or so, then Squired instead of the Lady equivalent, I think Maiden in Waiting?), in those cases I will allow/require them to spend their skills points on certain Lady only skills. However, keep in mind that Lady skills, like Chirurgury and Industry, are kind of seen as being beneath a Knight, so they probably wouldn't make much use of them.

Edited by Call Me Deacon Blues
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Based on what Greg said in the old forums you can probably drop the whole Lineage men thing anyway. People tend to use them as a sort of personal army, and they weren't supposed to work that way. More like a measure of the size and influence of the knight's family.

Edited by Atgxtg
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Right, I changed Son Number to Child Number.

Most of the changes I made were on the second page, so it's gender neutral across all the generations.

Wife to Spouse

Glory to Son to Glory to Children

Lineage Men to Lineage Members

Father's Name to Parent's Name

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14 hours ago, JaredS113 said:

I changed Son Number to Child Number.

 

14 hours ago, JaredS113 said:

Father's Name to Parent's Name

Are you sure about this? Even a daughter have a father after all. The world of KAP is socially a patriarcal world, full of olds conceptions (even odd). The name of the father is more important in this society. That's why you gain 1/10 of the glory of your father (not your mother) and you inherit your Family Characteristic from your father.

The Son number is important as well because sons inherit before daughters, and the eldest before the youngers.

It was there for a purpose.  I'm afraid you will lost something by erasing it.

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57 minutes ago, Tizun Thane said:

That's why you gain 1/10 of the glory of your father (not your mother) and you inherit your Family Characteristic from your father.

In Our Campaign:

We use 10% of the Glory of the more Glorious Parent (yes, this is usually the father, but we have had cases where this is actually the Mother, usually a female Player-Knight but at least one Player-Lady managed to rack more Glory than most knights (20k+ in the end).

Also, we give the female knights the Family Characteristic, not the Lady's Gift, and hence we let the children inherit the Family Characteristic from the female PK rather than the NPC father.

In short, the female knights are 'honorary males' in a sense. Their status as a knight trumps their status as a woman, even as a heiress, so they get to choose their own husbands and so forth. And if I did have a player who insisted only playing female characters, I would not have a problem of either tweaking the inheritance rules in that particular instance to give the same continuity of a manor that other players of male characters get, or simply ensuring that the (older) brothers kick the bucket and thus leaving the coast clear for the female knight / heiress. There are always ways to work things out and the main point is to have fun.

 

That being said, for most campaigns, there is value in knowing the son number, not just the child number, for inheritance purposes as Tizun Thane points out. Even in our campaign (above), the default is that the eldest son inherits (or heiresses split equally), and any deviations from that require some storywork.

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@ Morien: Your rules are good, but they are not RAW. 

51 minutes ago, Morien said:

Also, we give the female knights the Family Characteristic, not the Lady's Gift, and hence we let the children inherit the Family Characteristic from the female PK rather than the NPC father.

RAW, women gain both the Family Characteristic from their father, and the lady's gift from their mother.

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15 minutes ago, Tizun Thane said:

@ Morien: Your rules are good, but they are not RAW. 

Which is why there was a big, fat "In Our Campaign" at the top. :)

16 minutes ago, Tizun Thane said:

RAW, women gain both the Family Characteristic from their father, and the lady's gift from their mother.

Nuh-uh. By RAW, women get only the Lady's Gift. KAP 5.2, p. 42: "The Family Characteristic is transferred through the male line, and is given to all male children of this bloodline. Thus your brothers and sons also have this characteristic. (Your sisters and daughters have their own women’s gifts from their mothers’ side of the family, as shown later in this chapter.)"

Also, later at p. 55 on Women Knights, it says: "Generate a female knight exactly the same way you would a male knight." Furthermore, if the Lady Knights are eligible for Chivalric Bonus (GM's call), they cannot get the Gentlewoman Bonus, too. That gave me all the cover and reason I needed to rule that the Women Knights get Family Characteristic instead of the Lady's Gift, too. Not that I needed it since I already have a list of on, thirty or so houserules. :P

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Correct, I mainly put it if there is a female Knight as the mother, but it makes sense to make it the most Glorious Parent.

And if you are using female Knights, I have no problem with women inheriting as well. That's probably how I'm going to play it.

Use whatever rules you want!

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1 hour ago, Tizun Thane said:

Did they change the rules behind my back?😮 

KAP 5.0 & 5.1

p. 32: same stuff for Family characteristic.

p. 43: same stuff for Women Knights.

 

KAP 4:

Bit more unclear, as it says that all children of all men have the Family characteristic, but only brothers and sons are explicitly mentioned. Later in Women chargen section it says that the Women's Gift is inherited through the female line, and sons are explicitly discluded. Family characteristic is not mentioned at all. So to me, this does fit the same idea that Women's Gifts replace Family Characteristic, as clarified in 5th edition books.

Edited by Morien

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50 minutes ago, Tizun Thane said:

Did they change the rules behind my back?😮 

 When introduced in KAP 3:

"A family characteristic IS some unusual feature which everyone in the family has"'

"This feature is transferred through the male line, and is give to all children of all men of this line."

The above would support the notion that women get the family characteristic. But is also states:

"Thus your brothers and sons will also have this characteristic."

Now the omission of sisters and daughters in the above could mean that they were to be excluded but it could also just be due to the focus of the game being on male knights, for player characters.

 

 


 

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7 minutes ago, Morien said:

KAP 5.0 & 5.1

p. 32: same stuff for Family characteristic.

p. 43: same stuff for Women Knights.

K&L Specifcally mentions  pn Page 58 that: "This is now for both Knights and Ladies".

 

Which clearly indicates that Ladies get the family characterstic in KAP5+. But it also suggests that they didn't before, despite what was written in KAP3. 

 

Personally, I say let them have it, they get shortchanged everywhere else.

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Thanks Atgxtg. I play mainly with KAP3, even now so it makes sense. Personnaly, if I am much more strict about female knights than others, I don't mind women cumulate family characteristic and lady's gift.

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52 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

K&L Specifcally mentions  pn Page 58 that: "This is now for both Knights and Ladies".

Thanks. We have not used K&L in our campaigns, so I am not as familiar with it. At the same time, it strongly implies to me that Ladies no longer get Women's Gift, since that is no longer mentioned anywhere in K&L. Also: "males inherit their father’s characteristic, and females their mother’s", which further solidifies my reading that Women's Gift is now gone, if you use K&L chargen.

Anyway, my main point was that in our campaign, Women Knights get Family Characteristic, same as male knights would, and only Ladies get Women's Gift.

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1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Now the omission of sisters and daughters in the above could mean that they were to be excluded but it could also just be due to the focus of the game being on male knights, for player characters.

As you have pointed out to me numerous times, KAP 4 is basically KAP 3 + Knights Adventurous. Female chargen & Women's Gift is introduced in Knights Adventurous, where it is stated (p. 78): "... women are special characters. Thus their character generation information is given here instead of the basic character generation chapter." (Same text is also in KAP 4, p. 140.)

This is strong evidence, in my mind, that:

KAP 3: Male knights only, they get FC.

Knights Adventurous: Female characters get Women's Gift.

KAP 4: As above.

KAP 5.x: Ladies get Women's Gift, Women Knights get FC (same as men).

K&L: Everyone gets FC, no one gets Women's Gift.

 

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1 hour ago, Morien said:

Thanks. We have not used K&L in our campaigns, so I am not as familiar with it. At the same time, it strongly implies to me that Ladies no longer get Women's Gift, since that is no longer mentioned anywhere in K&L. Also: "males inherit their father’s characteristic, and females their mother’s", which further solidifies my reading that Women's Gift is now gone, if you use K&L chargen.

The Womans Gift table seems to have been replaced with the :"Lady's Luck" table, K&L Pp. 65, which is in addition to the family characteristic. So they get something a little extra, which IMO they probsabyl need. 

1 hour ago, Morien said:

Anyway, my main point was that in our campaign, Women Knights get Family Characteristic, same as male knights would, and only Ladies get Women's Gift.

That's pretty close to how I run it. I let the player choose which skill list (male or female) and which Luck Table to roll on. Generally the trade off is in skills and starting equipment. We have a Saxon Shiedlmaiden in the group, and the player opted to take the female skills, so she could have Nordic Charm (she took Sword as he free skill at 15 so she could fight), and then took the male Luck table and got the mark of the hammer, and male starting gear. This gave the player a shield maiden who was playable as a warrior.

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1 hour ago, Morien said:

As you have pointed out to me numerous times, KAP 4 is basically KAP 3 + Knights Adventurous.

:):):) I don't know why but that gives me a sense of accomplishment. ;)

1 hour ago, Morien said:

 

 

Female chargen & Women's Gift is introduced in Knights Adventurous, where it is stated (p. 78): "... women are special characters. Thus their character generation information is given here instead of the basic character generation chapter." (Same text is also in KAP 4, p. 140.)

This is strong evidence, in my mind, that:

KAP 3: Male knights only, they get FC.

Knights Adventurous: Female characters get Women's Gift.

KAP 4: As above.

KAP 5.x: Ladies get Women's Gift, Women Knights get FC (same as men).

K&L: Everyone gets FC, no one gets Women's Gift.

 

I tend to agree except that they way it was worded in KAP3 states the opposite, but in a somewhat self contradictory way. When I'm writing up NPLs I will use any of the tables depending on what sort of character I am looking for. I've even pulled out the old tables from KAP1 when I wanted a potion brewer, and even went "off the board" for one woman who could make cakes that improved healing rate but made the eater sleepy (after watching Excalibur one time too many).

I suspect the removal of the women gift tables might have been because of the magician rules. With KAP4 the potion brewers didn't quite fit with the magic system. Also the +1d10 APP meant that a PL could outdo Gwen in the APP department.  

 

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40 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

The Womans Gift table seems to have been replaced with the :"Lady's Luck" table, K&L Pp. 65, which is in addition to the family characteristic. So they get something a little extra, which IMO they probsabyl need. 

Nah. It is just replacing the knights' (males') cultural luck table with a generic female one. So nothing extra.

p. 60: "New knights may roll once on the Luck Table: Males use an appropriate cultural table; all ladies use the same table, found on pg. 65."

Ah, now I understand your point, I think... You mean that prior to K&L, there was no Luck table for a lady to roll from? I always let them roll from the same Luck Table as anyone else, whether or not they were male or female, knights or non-knights, so it didn't dawn on me that you would consider it as extra.

29 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I suspect the removal of the women gift tables might have been because of the magician rules. With KAP4 the potion brewers didn't quite fit with the magic system. Also the +1d10 APP meant that a PL could outdo Gwen in the APP department.  

KAP 5.x APP bonus is worse in that regard: flat +10 to APP.

I think you are right about the potions, although they did make a bit of a comeback in K&L via Wondrous Substances. Although those are more akin to the Healing Potion, as if you get unlucky, it might be one use only, rather than something you can brew again and again.

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1 hour ago, Morien said:

Ah, now I understand your point, I think... You mean that prior to K&L, there was no Luck table for a lady to roll from? I always let them roll from the same Luck Table as anyone else, whether or not they were male or female, knights or non-knights, so it didn't dawn on me that you would consider it as extra.

So then they do get the Woman's Gift, too.

 

1 hour ago, Morien said:

KAP 5.x APP bonus is worse in that regard: flat +10 to APP.

Ouch. Yeah. Admittedly it doesn't do them much good, as we've mentioned before., but with 3d6+5, and another +10 that means it is pooisble to roll a 33 at the start, 35 for a Roman. 

1 hour ago, Morien said:

I think you are right about the potions, although they did make a bit of a comeback in K&L via Wondrous Substances. Although those are more akin to the Healing Potion, as if you get unlucky, it might be one use only, rather than something you can brew again and again.

They make a comeback, but not as something a woman can make every year in exchange for an aging roll. But I think the old method made women better potion brewers than magician characters, who had to use a lot more lifeforce and  to get the same effects. 

I wouldn't mind seeing characters able to brew minor potions will a skill roll, it adds to women characters. But we don't know what the new system for magicians is like yet, only that it is different than the one in KAP4. IMO, the one is KAP4 wasn't bad, but could have been streamlined. Say replace all those multiple d20s for lifeforce with 1d20 and a multiplier, or even just use the casting die as the d20.

 

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