How do you stat multiple creatures at once

[Old Man Henerson]

10 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

It's one of the reasons. Generally an impale or even just a high damage normal hit are all factors. The main reason why numbers are so telling is because of the limits to the number of attacks and parries a character can make, and the effect of multiple actions on a character's skill. A warrior with 100% skill fighting two guys with 50% skill is almost in an even fight. That doesn't happen in , say D&D, where two 5th level fighters do not equal one 10th level fighter.

I have to admire the groundedness this game has to offer in regards to combat, though I think it could get in the way if you want to make some cosmic Elder God fighting superhero when a common thug can bring you down with a lucky role.

Also, how would you handle a situation where the PCs have to fight a horde of enemies? Give them a backup army of redshirts?

6 hours ago, seneschal said:

Hmmm, she escaped with the Handsome Lead (tm) in Lowlander IX, the LEGO Disney Princess Movie, The Revengers:  Iron Legacy, Man, and with the evil emperor's hunky great-grandson in Solar Wars -- Absolutely No Hope.  I suspect it is the princess.  🤔

Not to mention how in Solar Wars -- The Last Straw, the princess can now fly through space using unlimited MarySue power!

[NickMiddleton]

13 minutes ago, Old Man Henerson said:

I have to admire the groundedness this game has to offer in regards to combat, though I think it could get in the way if you want to make some cosmic Elder God fighting superhero when a common thug can bring you down with a lucky role.

Not really:

Common thug - 10HP, MWL 5, no armour, all skills 25%, drops immediately on Major Wound, all attacks do 1D6 damage.

cosmic Elder God fighting superhero - Heroic Hit points (CON+SIZ), Stats rolled on 2D6+6 and allowed to increase to any value, skills allowed over 100%. Campaign starting level Superhuman...

It remains within the bounds of probability that the Thug can drop the PC, but it is vanishingly unlikely.

I have run very OTT / pulp BRP games with no issue: one needs to be very aware of the action economy (as in any game) and ratio of opponent skill to PC skill, but once one has a solid grasp of how BRP hangs together it is actually a remarkably forgiving system for dialling between harsh gritty realism and pulp heroics.

13 minutes ago, Old Man Henerson said:

Also, how would you handle a situation where the PCs have to fight a horde of enemies? Give them a backup army of redshirts?

To a degree, but also, if the intent is for PCs to "mow" their way through the horde, make the horde "mooks": any hit from a PC drops them (Special drops two, crit drops 3, subject to suitable player narration of appropriate pulp heroic move), they have a 20% skills and do 1D4 if they hit.

Cheers,

Nick

[Old Man Henerson]

Thanks for the advice Nick, and thanks to all you guys for the help. I feel a lot more confident about running this system now.

Now all I have to do is generate the base form of my monsters, finish up the plot, and I am ready to go.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Old Man Henerson said:

I have to admire the groundedness this game has to offer in regards to combat, though I think it could get in the way if you want to make some cosmic Elder God fighting superhero when a common thug can bring you down with a lucky role.

That depends upon which rule tweaks you use, but overall BRP isn't really well suited towards Cosmic Elder Gods. They can be done, and in several ways (Strombringer's Lords of Law and Chaos write ups, Chthlhu's Elder God stats, Gloratha's stats for semi-divine beings such as the Crimson Bat), but most are beyond the comfort zone of the game mechanics. But usually, when the game is adjusted to handled superheros and elder gods, the common thugs are sort of left behind. 

1 hour ago, Old Man Henerson said:

Also, how would you handle a situation where the PCs have to fight a horde of enemies? Give them a backup army of redshirts?

I'd try to avoid that. Realistically, and not surprisingly, it's a situation that would kill most heroes.  One thing I would try to do is give the  PCs some sort of terrain where they could bottleneck the horde and face them a little at a time. There is a point where  it turns into an exercise in the laws of probability rather than a fight. For instance, a hundred orcs, each with only 5% skill, fought in succession, will probably take down a master swordman just through the nature of dice and random  rolls. So it no longer becomes about how the characters fighters or skill, but more a matter of when  those critical hits show up.

Oh, and along a similar note, don't ambush your PC very often. I know D&D loves ambushes and does a ot of them, but in D&D it is because an extra round of attacks can make a minor menace more of a threat. In BRP a good ambush means people getting hit with no defense other than armor, and can often wipe out half a group of PCs before they even get to react.

 

1 hour ago, Old Man Henerson said:

Not to mention how in Solar Wars -- The Last Straw, the princess can now fly through space using unlimited MarySue power!

Mary Sues are bad for storytelling and adventuring purposes, so I'd wouldn't try to run that sort of situation. When you get to the point where you know the characters cannot fail or be beaten it becomes very boring. Yes, we all know that in most stories the hero has a certain degree of script immunity, but most stories also make some effort to hide that, and many will surprise us by allowing a hero to lose or at least suffer a major set back or injury.

If a GM wants to run a Mary Sue in their campaign, then just dictate it, like they do in those sorts of films. Just don't be surprised when most of your players are less than impressed. 

[Old Man Henerson]

36 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

That depends upon which rule tweaks you use, but overall BRP isn't really well suited towards Cosmic Elder Gods. They can be done, and in several ways (Strombringer's Lords of Law and Chaos write ups, Chthlhu's Elder God stats, Gloratha's stats for semi-divine beings such as the Crimson Bat), but most are beyond the comfort zone of the game mechanics. But usually, when the game is adjusted to handled superheros and elder gods, the common thugs are sort of left behind. 

Yeah. I suppose that would be the case, when you are that powerful, thugs tent to just run away anyway. I am still a bit fuzzy on how the different power levels work. From the description the book gave, I thought that superhuman level meant you could go toe to toe with Cthulhu or more powerful beings.  As a side note, do you think it is possible to change the campaign's power level mid way through the story? Like say if your PCs gained some kind of mega power up and you wanted them to face greater enemies?

40 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I'd try to avoid that. Realistically, and not surprisingly, it's a situation that would kill most heroes.  One thing I would try to do is give the  PCs some sort of terrain where they could bottleneck the horde and face them a little at a time. There is a point where  it turns into an exercise in the laws of probability rather than a fight. For instance, a hundred orcs, each with only 5% skill, fought in succession, will probably take down a master swordman just through the nature of dice and random  rolls. So it no longer becomes about how the characters fighters or skill, but more a matter of when  those critical hits show up.

Oh, and along a similar note, don't ambush your PC very often. I know D&D loves ambushes and does a ot of them, but in D&D it is because an extra round of attacks can make a minor menace more of a threat. In BRP a good ambush means people getting hit with no defense other than armor, and can often wipe out half a group of PCs before they even get to react.

I will be sure to remember that for the future. Alternatively, you could give the PCs access to better weapons like automatic weapons, grenades, or even a tank to even the odds.  You are also right that D&D loves ambush attacks. It would certainly be better to focus less on ambushes unless it was important.

47 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Mary Sues are bad for storytelling and adventuring purposes, so I'd wouldn't try to run that sort of situation. When you get to the point where you know the characters cannot fail or be beaten it becomes very boring. Yes, we all know that in most stories the hero has a certain degree of script immunity, but most stories also make some effort to hide that, and many will surprise us by allowing a hero to lose or at least suffer a major set back or injury.

If a GM wants to run a Mary Sue in their campaign, then just dictate it, like they do in those sorts of films. Just don't be surprised when most of your players are less than impressed. 

As an author, I will have to watch my self for Mary Sue characters in the game, It is so tempting to rail road the story like that. It is even tempting turn my PCs into Mary Sues as the story progresses so that they can complete my plot ideas for me. 😅

 

[Atgxtg]

23 minutes ago, Old Man Henerson said:

Yeah. I suppose that would be the case, when you are that powerful, thugs tent to just run away anyway. I am still a bit fuzzy on how the different power levels work. From the description the book gave, I thought that superhuman level meant you could go toe to toe with Cthulhu or more powerful beings.

They might. It depends a lot of which options you use, or even which ruleset as there are several games based on the core rules. I once killed Cthulhu in a permanent way in RQ, but it was a special case crossover that should really have happened.

23 minutes ago, Old Man Henerson said:

  As a side note, do you think it is possible to change the campaign's power level mid way through the story? Like say if your PCs gained some kind of mega power up and you wanted them to face greater enemies?

Yes, but very dangerous. The problem is that with a big jump a PC could get caught in between power levels and be vulnerable. It's usually better to just let experience and time work to increase the pwoer level over time.

23 minutes ago, Old Man Henerson said:

I will be sure to remember that for the future. Alternatively, you could give the PCs access to better weapons like automatic weapons, grenades, or even a tank to even the odds.

Uh no. That's why we mean about odds. In D&D it doesn't matter because it is about hit points number of attacks and damage done. If a PC has five times the hit points of the opposition, attacks three times as often, and does twice as much damage, they can effectively, offset the odds. If something unexpected happens, it can usually be fixed up with healing magic or even a raise dead.

 

But in BRP all the extra attack from grenades, SMG etc, do not offset the increased chances of a bad guy getting a critical or impale, nor do they offset the lack of defense for the PCs. It's not so much that the fight is even or not, only that, ultimately, it doesn't matter if a NPC or twenty get killed in an adventure, as that is what they are for, but just one PC death can causes some problems. Either a player isn't playing or they have to create a new character. Dead characters tend to stay dead, and lots of plot threads and such might not matter any more, and so on.

23 minutes ago, Old Man Henerson said:

 

  You are also right that D&D loves ambush attacks. It would certainly be better to focus less on ambushes unless it was important.

Even  be careful if they are important. In most cases an ambush will kill at least one PC, and is the best chance for a Total Party Kill you'll generally see. Even Conan isn't so tough in BRP if he take an impaling arrow to the head. Just do a playtest ambush with your players and see what happens, and how quickly.

23 minutes ago, Old Man Henerson said:

As an author, I will have to watch my self for Mary Sue characters in the game, It is so tempting to rail road the story like that. It is even tempting turn my PCs into Mary Sues as the story progresses so that they can complete my plot ideas for me. 😅

Mary Sues tend to be boring. Railroading in general is bad, since players like to have (or at least believe) that they have some sort of freedom and can choose  what they do. Otherwise they don't need to be there.  Now as GM you can craft adventures in such a way that the players have a strong incentive to take the path you want them to  take on an adventure, but ultimately it should be up to them, and  any strong-arming should be done by NPCs in  game, as opposed tot he  GM.

I run a lot of Pendragon, a sort  of cousin to BRP (if you saw it you could figure out most of  it just by knowing BRP), and, because it has a setting with a somewhat fixed timeline, there are a lot of scripted events- that is things that  are going to happen. It also has  it's own Mary Sue figures, such as  Lancelot, and the Christ-like Galahad. Now as GM one of the tricks to running a good Pendragon campaign is  to make sure that the characters always  have  some  choice of action and that their actions can  impact the adventure in some way. The players should  never feel that their characters don't matter or can't affect  things. Art times they might have to take orders (although they can choose to disobey and suffer the consequences), or just be a small part in a big army , but they still get to make choices and those choices matter.

[soltakss]

On 11/6/2019 at 8:54 PM, Joerg said:

If the stats don't change other game aspects, don't bother and go with the averages, unless you want to have a few outliers.

And give them generic names, Trollkin #1, Trollkin #2, Orc #1, Orc #2 and so on.

I remember when a certain Beetle Herder came to a Convention in England and brought Norwegian #1, Norwegian #2, Norwegian #3 and Norwegian #4, which I found hilarious at the time, and still do now.

[Old Man Henerson]

4 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Yes, but very dangerous. The problem is that with a big jump a PC could get caught in between power levels and be vulnerable. It's usually better to just let experience and time work to increase the pwoer level over time.

Good to know, thanks a lot. I had planed on setting up 2 or 3 check points in the game I was working on so that my PCs could move up their power level as the story progressed and their powers would be sufficient to take on the cosmic planet eater I have planed for the end of the game.  Like you said, a more organic approach might be the best option.

5 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Uh no. That's why we mean about odds. In D&D it doesn't matter because it is about hit points number of attacks and damage done. If a PC has five times the hit points of the opposition, attacks three times as often, and does twice as much damage, they can effectively, offset the odds. If something unexpected happens, it can usually be fixed up with healing magic or even a raise dead.

But in BRP all the extra attack from grenades, SMG etc, do not offset the increased chances of a bad guy getting a critical or impale, nor do they offset the lack of defense for the PCs. It's not so much that the fight is even or not, only that, ultimately, it doesn't matter if a NPC or twenty get killed in an adventure, as that is what they are for, but just one PC death can causes some problems. Either a player isn't playing or they have to create a new character. Dead characters tend to stay dead, and lots of plot threads and such might not matter any more, and so on.

Even  be careful if they are important. In most cases an ambush will kill at least one PC, and is the best chance for a Total Party Kill you'll generally see. Even Conan isn't so tough in BRP if he take an impaling arrow to the head. Just do a playtest ambush with your players and see what happens, and how quickly.

I think I see it now. Enemies should have lowish skills to keep the PCs alive, and mass engagements should kept far away from the players, unless they have a significant advantage, (Like the high ground LOL) Fighting smart and tactically sounds like the best option for this game. 

5 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Mary Sues tend to be boring. Railroading in general is bad, since players like to have (or at least believe) that they have some sort of freedom and can choose  what they do. Otherwise they don't need to be there.  Now as GM you can craft adventures in such a way that the players have a strong incentive to take the path you want them to  take on an adventure, but ultimately it should be up to them, and  any strong-arming should be done by NPCs in  game, as opposed tot he  GM.

I run a lot of Pendragon, a sort  of cousin to BRP (if you saw it you could figure out most of  it just by knowing BRP), and, because it has a setting with a somewhat fixed timeline, there are a lot of scripted events- that is things that  are going to happen. It also has  it's own Mary Sue figures, such as  Lancelot, and the Christ-like Galahad. Now as GM one of the tricks to running a good Pendragon campaign is  to make sure that the characters always  have  some  choice of action and that their actions can  impact the adventure in some way. The players should  never feel that their characters don't matter or can't affect  things. Art times they might have to take orders (although they can choose to disobey and suffer the consequences), or just be a small part in a big army , but they still get to make choices and those choices matter.

Thanks for the all the advice. I will be sure to craft lots of incentives into the story, lest I end up a star on r/rpg horror stories. 😅

[Atgxtg]

33 minutes ago, Old Man Henerson said:

Good to know, thanks a lot. I had planed on setting up 2 or 3 check points in the game I was working on so that my PCs could move up their power level as the story progressed and their powers would be sufficient to take on the cosmic planet eater I have planed for the end of the game.  Like you said, a more organic approach might be the best option.

What happens after the cosmic planet eater? One thing about going big is that it is a tough act to  follow, especially if  you have to power the PCs up  to do  it. 

33 minutes ago, Old Man Henerson said:

I think I see it now. Enemies should have lowish skills to keep the PCs alive, and mass engagements should kept far away from the players, unless they have a significant advantage, (Like the high ground LOL) Fighting smart and tactically sounds like the best option for this game. 

Yes, although as you get more f amilar with the game this becomes less of an issue. It's just that it is easy for a GM new to the game to  overdo it. If you give the PCs an even fight then it could go either way, and even if they win, the PCs will probably lose a few people.

33 minutes ago, Old Man Henerson said:

Thanks for the all the advice. I will be sure to craft lots of incentives into the story, lest I end up a star on r/rpg horror stories. 😅

It's just general GMing. You get the hang of it. Plus to pull a Yoda, "unlearning what you have learned". D&D teaches DMs and players things that do not work elsewhere, and it usually catches some of  them by surprise and causes confusion. For instance, charging the archers  with melee troops isn't such a great tactic in BRP as a couple of arrows  can actually take a character out of a fight. IMO D&D players have a harder time picking up BRP than even non-gamers, because they tend to assume things that don't apply anymore. 

[Old Man Henerson]

14 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

What happens after the cosmic planet eater? One thing about going big is that it is a tough act to  follow, especially if  you have to power the PCs up  to do  it. 

I plan for the planet eater to be the big finale of the game, so there probably won't be anything else after that, otherwise I would be worried about what came next.

14 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Yes, although as you get more f amilar with the game this becomes less of an issue. It's just that it is easy for a GM new to the game to  overdo it. If you give the PCs an even fight then it could go either way, and even if they win, the PCs will probably lose a few people.

It's just general GMing. You get the hang of it. Plus to pull a Yoda, "unlearning what you have learned". D&D teaches DMs and players things that do not work elsewhere, and it usually catches some of  them by surprise and causes confusion. For instance, charging the archers  with melee troops isn't such a great tactic in BRP as a couple of arrows  can actually take a character out of a fight. IMO D&D players have a harder time picking up BRP than even non-gamers, because they tend to assume things that don't apply anymore. 

I always respect a fellow fan of Yoda. 👍 Yeah, there is a lot to unlearn from D&D, more than I ever imagined. It is actually pretty surprising because my experience with D&D has been rather casual, yet there is so much of it that is now embedded into my perception of rpgs. I will learn though, as you said, and with each game I will get better and better.

Thanks again for all your advice. I am actually quite surprised that this post has generated so many comments as it was my first post.