Runequest 3, house rules, Borderlands and questions

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, lordabdul said:

That's from @soltakss -- hasn't the Resistance Table been virtually the same in all versions of BRP games? What changed?

You have a greater than 100% at higher levels, so that gives you a higher Special or Critical chance, which is useful for things like Fear/Madness/Fearshock. It's a simple change, but one that I really like.

8 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Great. But the thread was about somebody who preferred sticking with RQ3 and using it as the base system, which is just as valid an option. I doubt I'll every play RQG, every time I go into the Rule clarification thread and see something that got changed that used to work fine, without any reason for the change, I shake my head and stick with what works. . I'm not ll that fond of the Runes as skills or the general power up that starting character get across the board. I'm not wowed by the Passion and background system, both work better in Pendragon. Art is nice, but not essential, and good game mechanics and clear concise rules trump good art. To me RQ3 is the better game.

Preference is very personal.

Although there are some things in RQG that I would Houserule, perhaps back to RQ2/3 or using other systems, it is, probably, the best version of RQ, in my opinion.

I would use Hero Points, though, as I really miss them when playing in Convention RQG games.

[soltakss]

10 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

10 hours ago, weasel fierce said:

Crucible of the hero wars, Elder secrets of glorantha and Gods of glorantha is a lot more material for Glorantha than we ever got for 2. 

I don't think so. Pavis, Big Rubble, Trollpak, Griffin Mountain, Cults of Prax, Cults of Terror, Borderlands, Snakepipe Hollow, Apple Lane, plus some more stuff I don't recall off the top of my head.

RQ2 had an awful lot of very good Gloranthan material, but so did RQ3. Elder secrets was good, Gods of Glorantha was good, the Praxian/Pavic supplements of Sun County, Strangers in Prax and Shadows on the Borderlands were excellent, even Griffin Island was a good scenario pack and could be used to provide extra info for Griffin Mountain.

We used Gods of Glorantha spells in RQ2, before we moved to a single-GM RQ3 Campaign.

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Being an adventurer isn't a job, it is temporary leave from your normal job - at least that's how I have always played rpgs. It helps if your normal job has an able lieutenant or partner (e.g. wife or sibling) who can cover for your absences.

Playing a priest adventurer just meant that you usually had to make your temple involved in the adventure somehow and participate as part of your cult duties. But then, have you seen the mercenary company contracts in Pavis or Borderlands? Joining a spirit cult is a lot less commitment than those contracts.

In the current-day style of RQ play, I agree that it works - you take a week or two off now and then, and you adventure in a limited area. But things often used to be a lot more D&D-style, with a wandering party of professional adventurers covering a lot of ground - Borderlands specifically linking into Griffin Mountain, for instance, or a band of weirdo strangers arriving in Pavis for Rubble-clearing. Unless you have a particularly helpful cult, being a priest won't be an option under those conditions. I never got the impression that Priest was a job intended for adventuring PCs - Rune-Lord is the position designed for PCs. 🙂 

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

RQ2 had an awful lot of very good Gloranthan material, but so did RQ3. Elder secrets was good, Gods of Glorantha was good, the Praxian/Pavic supplements of Sun County, Strangers in Prax and Shadows on the Borderlands were excellent, even Griffin Island was a good scenario pack and could be used to provide extra info for Griffin Mountain.

Elder Secrets was good but ki nda pointless without the same level of info on the main  cultures. In RQ3 if you wanted to play a Troll you were covered, if you wanted to play anything else, you were better sticking with RQ2.

Sun Country was excellent, b ut Shadow on the  Borderlands was mostrly a rehash of the RQ2 Borderland Boxed Set. 

 

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

We used Gods of Glorantha spells in RQ2, before we moved to a single-GM RQ3 Campaign.

For what Cults? There r eally wasn't much to add to the core  RQ2 cults.

[Lordabdul]

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Do you mean CoC7? The rule has always been round to  the nearest in all Chasoium RPGs. Much easier to remember as it was the same for everything.

I meant CoC7 yes (fun fact: IIRC CoC5 has no rounding at all because there are no divisions anywhere except for coming up with Hit Points at character creation, and yes they changed it from "round up" to "round down" over time). But I think there's no point trying to find a common ground among BRP-based RPGs, as, at least between RQ and CoC, there has always been wide differences. BRP games are an unofficial family -- I don't think RQ or CoC ever mentioned being "BRP powered", so they were never supposed to fit a base rule set, and indeed they often had different implementations of skill rolls, resistance tables, and many other things.

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Tell me again how RQG is better?  

Well I do like it better -- it grabbed my attention, when all the previous editions didn't (mind you, back then I was young and busy playing Vampire and Rolemaster and CoC 5e, and in the 2000s I was busy with Delta Green, mostly). And yes there are reasons to like the new Resistance Table better, too. But obviously you don't like RQG, so let's not bog down the thread with rules minutiae debating that will go nowhere, especially when you seem very passionate about rules while I'm more of a "meh, this is fine, maybe I'll throw in a couple house rules to fix this and that" kinda guy.

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

As far as fans of RQG go, enjoy and have fun. They bought the game, why can't they enjoy it?

Sure they can! Sorry I originally was curious about the history of some rules and lost track of the thread topic, I shoudn't have posted that last "my 2 cents" paragraph in my first post.

Edited November 16, 2019 by lordabdul

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

You have a greater than 100% at higher levels, so that gives you a higher Special or Critical chance, which is useful for things like Fear/Madness/Fearshock. It's a simple change, but one that I really like.

Is the resistance table only used for Spells now?  If not that sounds terrible, since one side could critical and the other can not.

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

Preference is very personal.

Yup.That is why when somebone says that they would rather use RQ3 and take what they consdier to b e the good bits from REG I can understand it. I jumped in on this thread because some people didn't understand it.

To me most of what I liked about RQ was gutted from the current edition which I find to be too long and lacks focus. How any hundred of pages are the two core books now? And how much of that was stuff that used to fit into a 120 page book? 

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

Although there are some things in RQG that I would Houserule, perhaps back to RQ2/3 or using other systems, it is, probably, the best version of RQ, in my opinion.

Yeah, but in your option MRQ wasn't that bad. So I think it's fair to say t hat we have very different criteria as to w hat make a game good. That's okay, it just means we need to be a bit careful about what the other recommends. 

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

I would use Hero Points, though, as I really miss them when playing in Convention RQG games.

I don't, but then I  never used then  in RQ. I have used them in some other games, and like them more in some games than  in others.

[Atgxtg]

12 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I meant CoC7 yes (fun fact: IIRC CoC5 has no rounding at all because there are no divisions anywhere except for coming up with Hit Points at character creation, and yes they changed it from "round up" to "round down" over time). But I think there's no point trying to find a common ground among BRP-based RPGs, as, at least between RQ and CoC, there has always been wide differences.

Not with t he rounding. At least not until recently

12 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

BRP games are an unofficial family -- I don't think RQ or CoC ever mentioned being "BRP powered", so they were never supposed to fit a base rule set, and indeed they often had different implementations of skill rolls, resistance tables, and many other things.

That's becuase they really aren't BRP games. Depire the PR that BRP was the core system that the others were based on, RQ was the core system that BRP was extracted from.  BRP was orginaly RQ lite. A very streamlined introdcution to the system. Call it the first Quickstart if you like. Chasoium used to push the idea that all their games were essential the same system.  At least until the AH deal when RQ3 came out and CoC  and Strombringer ended up going down a different path.

12 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Well I do like it better -- it grabbed my attention, when all the previous editions didn't (mind you, back then I was young and busy playing Vampire and Rolemaster and CoC 5e, and in the 2000s I was busy with Delta Green, mostly). And yes there are reasons to like the new Resistance Table better, too. But obviously you don't like RQG, so let's not bog down the thread with rules minutiae debating that will go nowhere, especially when you seem very passionate about rules while I'm more of a "meh, this is fine, maybe I'll throw in a couple house rules to fix this and that" kinda guy.

Okay.  Again, My main point here isn't to debate someone's preferences but  to defend  someone's prefereces. 

12 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Sure they can! Sorry I originally was curious about the history of some rules and lost track of the thread topic, I shoudn't have posted that last "my 2 cents" paragraph in my first post.

Yeah. Whatever floats thier boat. I've heard that some poeple out t here actually like to play D&D!

[Qizilbashwoman]

36 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I've heard that some poeple out t here actually like to play D&D!

but... there are at least several options other than that game right here on this website! and one of them doesn't even use d100!

[Atgxtg]

Just now, Qizilbashwoman said:

but... there are at least several options other than that game right here on this website! and one of them doesn't even use d100!

LOL! Yup. Everybody has their own preferences.

[Qizilbashwoman]

Just now, Atgxtg said:

LOL! Yup. Everybody has their own preferences.

there's at least... ten kinds of percentile games here. THERE'S A FOREST OF PERCENTILE.

just to be clear i'm seriously kidding I don't even really like RuneQuest, I most put up with it. Mostly my ideal games are like... A Quiet Year and other extremely DMless "edgelord indie" stuff.

[Bill the barbarian]

8 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

.  As far as fans of RQG go, enjoy and have fun. They bought the game, why can't they enjoy it?

Yep

Edited November 16, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[SDLeary]

28 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

THERE'S A FOREST OF PERCENTILE

Are you sure its a Forest and not a Wood? 😁

SDLeary

[Bill the barbarian]

2 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

Are you sure its a Forest and not a Wood? 😁

 

Not sure, I can not see the forest you are talking about. There’s a tree in the way. :)>

[Atgxtg]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Being an adventurer isn't a job, it is temporary leave from your normal job - at least that's how I have always played rpgs. It helps if your normal job has an able lieutenant or partner (e.g. wife or sibling) who can cover for your absences.

Yeah same for Rune Lord.

I think that might be the big disconnect here. Most people, coming from other games, assume the standard "D&D Party"  situation where a band of heroes adventure together and things like regilion  and homeland are mostly used for background flavor and access to particular magic or feats. In RQ a characters cult was more important t hat what party he adventured with. The 90% time thing meant that most adventures such characters went on were  for their cult, not something they did on a sabbatical. 

If you try to run RQ  with the D&D philosophy, the cults and their requirements would look very wield and restrictive to play as oppose to shaping and defining it. This is also why cult decisions among players was more important in RQ than in most other games. The players have to select characters that can get along with each other, unlike D&D where the "he's a party member" philosophy tended to trump everything else.

 

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

In the current-day style of RQ play, I agree that it works - you take a week or two off now and then, and you adventure in a limited area.

My RQ3 experience started with the Vikings box, and if you look at that campaign (or its twin in Land of Ninja) it worked just on this principle (although with the added feature of going a-Viking or as Samurai in the service of the lord). Effectively trouble-shooting like the stuff Vasana and her friends are going through after their homecoming, or what the Adventure Book in the GM screen pack provides.

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

But things often used to be a lot more D&D-style, with a wandering party of professional adventurers covering a lot of ground - Borderlands specifically linking into Griffin Mountain, for instance, or a band of weirdo strangers arriving in Pavis for Rubble-clearing.

The Borderlands episode is specifically the end of a service period covering a few years. The player characters may spend some time in Balazar, or they might accompany Daryli on his way back to Raus Fort. If they want to collect the bonus, they need to return to Prax, although some might decide to take the long way anyway.

The entire campaigning in Prax remains a bit mysterious to me. There is no good guideline to play the tribesmen of Prax, unless you happen to own Nomad Gods.

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Unless you have a particularly helpful cult, being a priest won't be an option under those conditions. I never got the impression that Priest was a job intended for adventuring PCs - Rune-Lord is the position designed for PCs. 🙂 

 

I got the impression that a priest would be a typical companion or retainer of a real leader - look at the encounters in Borderlands (other than the broos) or Griffin Mountain. Or at the job Daine held.

In the rare (non-Gloranthan) RQ3 games I got to play in rather than GM I managed to roll up a priest of the sea god who was able to do some adventuring with the rest of the party. But yes, those games played at our university rpg association usually were episodic scenarios rather than a campaign, with changing players and GMs.

From a personal loot perspective, there is little incentive for a priest to go adventuring. But a priest in the service of a temple with interests in local politics or power struggles or in the service of a local leader (i.e. detached by the temple to serve that leader and to tend to the local shrines) will be faced with adventuring missions rather frequently.

 

Looking at the Borderlands setting, I think that I would have made that campaign a lot less combat-oriented, and a lot more focussed on getting the settlement prepared and expanded, with (at least some) player characters in foreman positions for construction or similar tasks, with trouble-shooting a side-job.

 

[soltakss]

4 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

For what Cults? There r eally wasn't much to add to the core  RQ2 cults.

We used the cults that were not in RQ2 Cults books.

As I recall, we especially liked Second Mouth and Vomit Acid.

4 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Sun Country was excellent, b ut Shadow on the  Borderlands was mostrly a rehash of the RQ2 Borderland Boxed Set. 

Was it? I remember some very good scenarios that did not appear in Borderlands, although one appeared in White Dwarf years before.

4 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Is the resistance table only used for Spells now?  If not that sounds terrible, since one side could critical and the other can not.

No, it's used for other things as well. The example I gave, with fear/Fearshock/Madness was because they had different effects if you succeeded/Specialied/Criticalled.

4 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Yeah, but in your option MRQ wasn't that bad. So I think it's fair to say t hat we have very different criteria as to w hat make a game good. That's okay, it just means we need to be a bit careful about what the other recommends. 

It wasn't great, but had some good things in it. I liked Her Points, how they did Enchantments, how they did Crafting and adding abilities to weapons, Legendary Abilities and so on. MRQII was a lot better than MRQI, of course.

4 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Yeah. Whatever floats thier boat. I've heard that some poeple out t here actually like to play D&D!

Or even Classic Fantasy, or 13th Age in Glorantha, or 13th Age using D100 a bit like Classic Fantasy.

52 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Borderlands episode is specifically the end of a service period covering a few years. The player characters may spend some time in Balazar, or they might accompany Daryli on his way back to Raus Fort. If they want to collect the bonus, they need to return to Prax, although some might decide to take the long way anyway.

The entire campaigning in Prax remains a bit mysterious to me. There is no good guideline to play the tribesmen of Prax, unless you happen to own Nomad Gods.

Oh, I don't know, I ran a Campaign in Prax that lasted for 13 years, playing weekly.

 

[Atgxtg]

25 minutes ago, soltakss said:

We used the cults that were not in RQ2 Cults books.

Didn't you use any of the RQ2 Cults? 

Quote

As I recall, we especially liked Second Mouth and Vomit Acid.

Fun crowd to  have at a party.        

Quote

Was it? I remember some very good scenarios that did not appear in Borderlands, although one appeared in White Dwarf years before.

Most of it was recycled. Stats updated from RQ2 to RQ3, and a few things were added, a couple of the scenarios might  have been enhanced a little, some new art, and a few things removed, but Borderlands &  Beyond is basically RQ2 Borderland, plus RQ2 Plunder and RQ2 Runemasters, just check the credits  So it didn't really help with they "they put out more Glorantha Stuff for RQ3 than for RQ2" argument. 

It's also from 2005 and by Moon Design, so that was long after Avalon Hill.

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No, it's used for other things as well. The example I gave, with fear/Fearshock/Madness was because they had different effects if you succeeded/Specialied/Criticalled.

That's not so good. It means that one side in a contest can critical  and get a special and the other cannot. 

Quote

It wasn't great, but had some good things in it. I liked Her Points, how they did Enchantments, how they did Crafting and adding abilities to weapons, Legendary Abilities and so on. MRQII was a lot better than MRQI, of course.

Of course. I didn't really like Legendary ability. Very overkill. IMO they were trying to make RQ into their own D&D. I've heard  that Matt Sprang told Steve Perrin that he didn't know how to right an RPG. That pretty bad. Steve has probably written as many RPGs as anyone. 

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Or even Classic Fantasy, or 13th Age in Glorantha, or 13th Age using D100 a bit like Classic Fantasy.

Yup. That's coll too. The only misgiving I have about that is merely those about player expectations. RQG and 13th Age Glorantha are two very different games that share a setting. They  focus on different things and  play out very differently.  A player familiar with one could be in for quite a surprise if they try the other thinking that it's the same worls so it should be similar.

Quote

Oh, I don't know, I ran a Campaign in Prax that lasted for 13 years, playing weekly.

 

And Nomad Gods was rolled into Borderlands & Beyond in RQ3. In RQ2 there was probably enough to go see with Pavis and the Big Rubble nearby. The thing I loved about Borderland was how much you got in the box, especially compared to a AD&D module at the time. The Borderland Boxed set went  for less than an AD&D "series' of modules yet gave you 7 adventures, a setting, tons of PCS stats, and lots of plot hooks for additional adventures. I could easily see a GM running for 13 years off of it alone. IMO it is one of the greatest campaign even published.  It's not the Great Pendragon Campaign, but nothing else is either. It is more useful to a begging Gm than the GPC though.

In fact the regret that I never got to do  much with Borderlands is one of the things that still makes me want to run some RQ. Should Borderland get ported over to RQG (it got an HQ treatment) I'd be sorely tempted not to give it a peek. 

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Atgxtg

[BWP]

On 11/16/2019 at 7:46 AM, soltakss said:

RQG is a good mix of RQ2 and RQ3 rules with some better stuff added on.

Umm ... I keep looking and all I see are the good RQ3 rules that are missing.  I can't recall noticing any RQ3 rules of note in RQG, and certainly nothing that would constitute "a good mix".

On 11/16/2019 at 7:46 AM, soltakss said:

There is an awful lot of RQ3 rules in RQG, don't believe the lie that it is just RQ2+, it is really RQ2/3+.

It's not a lie from where I'm sitting.  What are these "awful lot" of RQ3 rules that you're referring to?  There's an entire thread (that I started) on "how much RQ3 is in RQG?" and the answer boiled down to "not a lot, and that was a deliberate choice".

On 11/16/2019 at 7:46 AM, soltakss said:

What extra rules are in RQG? Off the top of my head:

• Runes are used well 
• Passions are really good
• The Sacred Time Economy is excellent
• The Resistance Table is better than before
• The way that Runemagic and Rune Pools work is really good
• It is slightly harder to lose a limb in RQG than in RQ2/3
• Sorcery is redone, probably better than RQ3 but I am not sure, as I haven't really grasped them and won't until I play a Sorcerer
• Shamans are a lot better in RQG than in RQ2 /3.

I'm not disputing any of that.  The RQG core is still RQ2, and that's a fundamental problem with the game.  You can put nice sauce on a bad piece of meat, and it's still a bad piece of meat, even if it's edible.  Much better to have nice sauce on a good piece of meat.  Particularly when the chefs have trouble even cooking up a nice sauce ....

 

[Atgxtg]

5 minutes ago, BWP said:

Umm ... I keep looking and all I see are the good RQ3 rules that are missing. 

Me too. The absences are more conscious that the inclusions. 

5 minutes ago, BWP said:

I can't recall noticing any RQ3 rules of note in RQG, and certainly nothing that would constitute "a good mix".

Switch from increments of 5%  to 1% seems to be the most obvious one, I don't know what thety roll for INT and SIZ.

5 minutes ago, BWP said:

It's not a lie from where I'm sitting.  What are these "awful lot" of RQ3 rules that you're referring to?  There's an entire thread (that I started) on "how much RQ3 is in RQG?" and the answer boiled down to "not a lot, and that was a deliberate choice".

I'm not disputing any of that.  The RQG core is still RQ2, and that's a fundamental problem with the game.  You can put nice sauce on a bad piece of meat, and it's still a bad piece of meat, even if it's edible.  Much better to have nice sauce on a good piece of meat.  Particularly when the chefs have trouble even cooking up a nice sauce ....

While I wouldn't call RQ2 a bad piece of meat, I do think RQ3 did address some of it's shortcomings, and unfortunately, most of those fixes didn't make it RQG.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Most of it was recycled. Stats updated from RQ2 to RQ3, and a few things were added, a couple of the scenarios might  have been enhanced a little, some new art, and a few things removed, but Borderlands &  Beyond is basically RQ2 Borderland, plus RQ2 Plunder and RQ2 Runemasters, just check the credits  So it didn't really help with they "they put out more Glorantha Stuff for RQ3 than for RQ2" argument. 

Simon was talking about Shadows on the Borderlands.  

You are talking about Borderlands and Beyond

Which is a recompilation of this

Whereas Shadows on the Borderlands is not.

[Atgxtg]

2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Simon was talking about Shadows on the Borderlands.  

Opps. Good catch. That does make a big difference. 

 

[metcalph]

11 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I really have to wonder tho...

Where the hell did the Praxians got their blue jeans from?

[Qizilbashwoman]

20 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I really have to wonder tho...

Where the hell did the Praxians got their blue jeans from?

those... are nábrók made from Blue Men.

[Lordabdul]

Can’t unsee......

[Qizilbashwoman]

22 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Can’t unsee......

nábrók have spirit-blessed gold coins in the scrote. that's the reason you wear them, they generate wealth. bet they jingle when you walk.

man-leggings

Edited November 17, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman