HeroQuest Glorantha starting setting

[Lordabdul]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Rain is a weird consequence of Heler

Heler is a bit weird to me in the sense that it looks like a fairly important deity (there's a ton of references to Heler throughout all HQ/RQ/Glorantha books), but he/she barely gets a short paragraph description. Only one of the old HeroWars books gives a more complete description, where Heler is given more backstory, along with a fluid gender, making him/her apparently popular with the transgender/non-binary minority in the Orlanthi culture -- although the HeroWars book mentions "homosexuals", which seems either misguided, or a miscategorization of gender-fluid folk. I'm wondering if that aspect of Heler was immediately skipped (AFAICT) in all subsequent books because the authors figured they needed to revisit that in a more correct and respectful way? I'd love to see Heler get a longer write-up in GaGoG, where @Jeff gets some appropriate consultants, the same way (as I understand it) he had some female designers consult on some of the female-only cults.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Heler was at one time the King of the Universe, I've been told (After Yelm, but before Orlanth?). Possibly during the Flood's greatest extension, possibly in conjunction with Lorion's invasion of Sky (begging the question of whether they are analogous in some way, as Heler likely is to Aroka). 

This doesn't answer your question though, of course, which is more about the "why" than the "what".

[Eff]

13 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Heler is a bit weird to me in the sense that it looks like a fairly important deity (there's a ton of references to Heler throughout all HQ/RQ/Glorantha books), but he/she barely gets a short paragraph description. Only one of the old HeroWars books gives a more complete description, where Heler is given more backstory, along with a fluid gender, making him/her apparently popular with the transgender/non-binary minority in the Orlanthi culture -- although the HeroWars book mentions "homosexuals", which seems either misguided, or a miscategorization of gender-fluid folk. I'm wondering if that aspect of Heler was immediately skipped (AFAICT) in all subsequent books because the authors figured they needed to revisit that in a more correct and respectful way? I'd love to see Heler get a longer write-up in GaGoG, where @Jeff gets some appropriate consultants, the same way (as I understand it) he had some female designers consult on some of the female-only cults.

Some deities that ought to be important in RW mythologies are often surprisingly afterthoughts. Amaterasu and Susanoo, Sun and Storm, are virtually absent from ordinary Shinto rituals and it's rare to see them in shrines. Shapash, the sun goddess of Ugarit, appears to have gone completely without any worship as far as we can tell. 

Offering my own personal take as a trans woman, I think that there needs to be a lot of careful steps taken to flesh out Orlanthi gender (though the RQG core has a good starting position!) in order to strike a balance between using historically evident "constricted" expressions of variant gender (eg sworn virgins, hijra, kathoey, certain forms of being two-spirit historically) and providing something that allows transgender folks to play in Glorantha as ourselves. And Heler is of course tricky because most of the existing iconography is masculine. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

6 minutes ago, Eff said:

Some deities that ought to be important in RW mythologies are often surprisingly afterthoughts. Amaterasu and Susanoo, Sun and Storm, are virtually absent from ordinary Shinto rituals and it's rare to see them in shrines. Shapash, the sun goddess of Ugarit, appears to have gone completely without any worship as far as we can tell. 

Or indeed Brahma (*a* Creation God of post-Vedic (iirc) Hinduism), which is popular alongside the "Trimurti" (Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva), even though both the Trimurti and Brahma are relatively rarely worshipped in real-life Hinduism, with Vishnu and Shiva being vastly more common.

[JonL]

45 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Only one of the old HeroWars books gives a more complete description, where Heler is given more backstory, along with a fluid gender, making him/her apparently popular with the transgender/non-binary minority in the Orlanthi culture -- although the HeroWars book mentions "homosexuals", which seems either misguided, or a miscategorization of gender-fluid folk.

It's certainly a matter where understanding and vocabulary outside of expert-circles has expanded dramatically since Storm Tribe was published in 2007.

[Lordabdul]

31 minutes ago, Eff said:

providing something that allows transgender folks to play in Glorantha as ourselves.

I'm curious, actually -- if you were to play as yourself, what cults/homelands would be interesting to you?  I'm trying to compile a few notes about things like these, since I know players from various ethnic groups or minorities might ask me (the GM) things like "I'd like to play a <whatever>, what do you have for me?".

31 minutes ago, Eff said:

And Heler is of course tricky because most of the existing iconography is masculine. 

I was actually wrong about Heler, that deity gets a full chapter description in Sartar Companion!

They do go into more details about the whole "dual gender" thing. I'm not sure that there's a lot of existing iconography of Heler to begin with, though, at least if you're talking about illustrations in the books. Sartar Companion describes Heler as such:

Heler is blue, and whenever Orlanthi speak of the Blue God or Blue Goddess, they speak of Heler.
Images usually depict him as a handsome, blueskinned man, or dual-gendered god with the right half male and the left half female.

Edited November 25, 2019 by lordabdul

[Sir_Godspeed]

For some reason I always imagined Heler as an androgynous youth (but still technically adult), along Greek pottery styles or something. Not sure why.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[scott-martin]

Such great things throughout the thread. Super busy at the office but looking forward to seeing it all developed. One thing here though!

5 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Images usually depict him as a handsome, blueskinned man, or dual-gendered god with the right half male and the left half female.

I'd forgotten about that! Wonder what they'd say if you showed them this image from the distant East. If they recognize it, I wonder if that tells us anything about Heler.

Coincidence? Parallel development? Either way, my water tribe adores the person we call Heler but they don't make pictures and in general it gets hugely complicated fast.

[Eff]

4 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I'm curious, actually -- if you were to play as yourself, what cults/homelands would be interesting to you?  I'm trying to compile a few notes about things like these, since I know players from various ethnic groups or minorities might ask me (the GM) things like "I'd like to play a <whatever>, what do you have for me?".

I was actually wrong about Heler, that deity gets a full chapter description in Sartar Companion!

They do go into more details about the whole "dual gender" thing. I'm not sure that there's a lot of existing iconography of Heler to begin with, though, at least if you're talking about illustrations in the books. Sartar Companion describes Heler as such:

Heler is blue, and whenever Orlanthi speak of the Blue God or Blue Goddess, they speak of Heler.
Images usually depict him as a handsome, blueskinned man, or dual-gendered god with the right half male and the left half female.

Hmm. I have fairly small-c catholic tastes, unfortunately, so I'd enjoy playing a pretty broad swathe of women in Sartar/Tarsh/Holy Country settings. Orlanth women/Vinga, Ernaldans, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Chalana Arroy, Humakt, Babeester Gor... those are the major player-characterish cults. I would probably my-Glorantha Ernalda and Babs a bit. Vinga is probably the most directly relatable cult to me, but that's because I'm also a somewhat butch lesbian and so the combination of masculine role expression and visible femininity (along with of course the intimations of women's homosociality, especially in older fan writeups) is very appealing. 

Lunar cults in general are also fairly appealing. I can't think of any that are specifically related to transness beyond a general appreciation for deliberate and conscious transgression in Lunat philosophy as a whole. 

I think my biggest wish would be a sense of where transness and LGBTness generally fits into Western cultures. Meriatan is probably gay, maybe bi, and that's about it, I think? There should be more about it in Peloria but I have a good sense of how to incorporate it into existing material subconsciously, I think. 

I think the only Heler iconography I can really remember off the top of my head is KoDP illustrations, yeah. Contemporary stuff is likely to be better just because of the more cosmopolitan influences going into the most recent art. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

51 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Such great things throughout the thread. Super busy at the office but looking forward to seeing it all developed. One thing here though!

I'd forgotten about that! Wonder what they'd say if you showed them this image from the distant East. If they recognize it, I wonder if that tells us anything about Heler.

Coincidence? Parallel development? Either way, my water tribe adores the person we call Heler but they don't make pictures and in general it gets hugely complicated fast.

Vith has the bifurcated thing going on, but not really anything to do with gender or sex from what I gather. Or, rather, he might very well, but not in the published sources I've read.

[Joerg]

I have come to expect "male bonding activities" to become pretty physical and intimate practically anywhere outside of Yelmic nobility. Orlanth is touchy-feely, and Lodril probably is little different. Ancient (pre-Ice Age) Malkioni society had a females to males ratio of one to four (or worse, as the dronar caste is supposed to be more numerous than the more noble castes). I don't think that theirs was a life devoid of all intimacy, though, or that there were enough lesser goddesses for all of them. This "male" comradry should extend to all such genders.

Female sexed individuals (including hermaphrodites) are under a certain obligation to have offspring in ancient and not so ancient cultures. Their sexual activities beyond those granting this offspring are probably less regulated, although patriarchal societies will limit their access to functional males drastically. Again, this will require other outlets for intimacy.

To me, it looks like there are two major sexual taboos or regulations in Glorantha for consensual interaction - straight (functional) male-female sex outside of the wedding vows (or magical/religious rites), and sex with non-adults (with quite different standards for adulthood than our modern ones, though). 

 

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I was actually wrong about Heler, that deity gets a full chapter description in Sartar Companion!

 

Love that series: the companion and its predecessor, Sartar Kingdom of Heroes, so cool!

[None]

On 11/25/2019 at 4:18 PM, Joerg said:

I don't think of the Orlanthi as being uncivilized. Their civilization has different values than those of the Dara Happans or Esrolians, but they aren't less civilized.

Places with capital punishment for minor infringements aren't any more civilized than places with communal responsibility for wrong-doings. Whether an overabundance of incarceration or amputations, a society doesn't get more civilized by that.

We're not using the same meaning for the word civilized here. I didn't mean civilized as based upon values but civilized as a 'barbarian culturure civilized culture' or a more complex with more specialsts (both in number and in variety) and probably older culture compared to a simpler more straightforward barbarian culture with more generalists than specialists.

 

On 11/25/2019 at 4:18 PM, Joerg said:

Well, you wrote:

On 11/24/2019 at 12:51 PM, None said:

Still, a campaign in the pre-Gods War eras (Green Age and Gold Age, I'd also mntion Storm Age but that's technically post-Gods War, isn't it?) has my definitve interest. I might even create a thread on that topic later.

But how did you conect that to the season? Dn't they go something, Sun Season, Earth Season, Dark Season, Storm Season, Sacred Time?

 

On 11/25/2019 at 4:18 PM, Joerg said:

The Gods' War covers (most of) the Storm Age and continues into the Greater Darkness, and ends with it.

I always though the Gods War was concidered over once Orlanth declared hmself the winner. With the Great Darknes being that separate horrible period no one (in game) want to talk about.

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by None

[Sir_Godspeed]

3 hours ago, None said:

We're not using the same meaning for the word civilized here. I didn't mean civilized as based upon values but civilized as a 'barbarian culturure civilized culture' or a more complex with more specialsts (both in number and in variety) and probably older culture compared to a simpler more straightforward barbarian culture with more generalists than specialists.

 

Heortling society probably has more social mobility (although not as much as the "Noble Savage"-stereotype might imply) than Esrolians or Dara Happans, but it's really hard to define "civilizational level" in terms of specialists and generalists. Is a Heortling barley-cattle farmer a generalist and a Lodrili rice farmer a specialist for example? 

Hell, arguably Orlanthi society has more specialists than Dara Happa due to them having a more widespread personal-initiation cult system than Solar Pelorians, it's jut that, again, social stratification is on a smaller scale and less entrenched.

So - in summary, I'd agree that Dara Happa (and arguably Esrolia) as mass-irrigation agriculture societies are more heavily stratified, which arguably can be called "civilized" (or at least urbanized, although the Heortlings are no strangers to cities/towns either, they're just less densely packed usually), or "despotic" if you want to be subversive about it.

I'll admit, I've never been fond of the term "barbarian", but Gloranthan promotional material insists on using it for the Orlanthi to evoke certain fantasy/history tropes, so I get it.

[Eff]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Heortling society probably has more social mobility (although not as much as the "Noble Savage"-stereotype might imply) than Esrolians or Dara Happans, but it's really hard to define "civilizational level" in terms of specialists and generalists. Is a Heortling barley-cattle farmer a generalist and a Lodrili rice farmer a specialist for example? 

Hell, arguably Orlanthi society has more specialists than Dara Happa due to them having a more widespread personal-initiation cult system than Solar Pelorians, it's jut that, again, social stratification is on a smaller scale and less entrenched.

So - in summary, I'd agree that Dara Happa (and arguably Esrolia) as mass-irrigation agriculture societies are more heavily stratified, which arguably can be called "civilized" (or at least urbanized, although the Heortlings are no strangers to cities/towns either, they're just less densely packed usually), or "despotic" if you want to be subversive about it.

I'll admit, I've never been fond of the term "barbarian", but Gloranthan promotional material insists on using it for the Orlanthi to evoke certain fantasy/history tropes, so I get it.

Of course, the model I learned in college (but which is heavily challenged) was a division between band/tribe/chiefdom/state. The central distinction here is the question of where authority resides- in bands and tribal societies, it resides in personal abilities and charisma, chiefdoms base authority on kinship, and state societies base authority on non-kinship formal structures. As such, Orlanthi might fairly be claimed to be tribal (certainly the tribe and clan are the most sustained polities in Orlanthi life outside of Esrolia), chiefdoms (kinship structures are dominant), or states (but the actual means of acquiring authority in Orlanthi society is via formal elections). How barbaric of them, to slip categories so easily. 😆

[Sir_Godspeed]

29 minutes ago, Eff said:

Of course, the model I learned in college (but which is heavily challenged) was a division between band/tribe/chiefdom/state. The central distinction here is the question of where authority resides- in bands and tribal societies, it resides in personal abilities and charisma, chiefdoms base authority on kinship, and state societies base authority on non-kinship formal structures. As such, Orlanthi might fairly be claimed to be tribal (certainly the tribe and clan are the most sustained polities in Orlanthi life outside of Esrolia), chiefdoms (kinship structures are dominant), or states (but the actual means of acquiring authority in Orlanthi society is via formal elections). How barbaric of them, to slip categories so easily. 😆

This sounds very much in line with Max Weber's tripartite division of authority (or more specifically, authority legitimization). "Traditional" authority is based on family ties or ritualistic forms, "Charismatic" authority based on personal approval and abilities, and "Legal" authority is based on written (or arguably oral) law codes that are accessible to a significant amount of the population. 

Weber did not really intend to say that these categories exist undiluted in the real world per se, but rather they were what he called "ideal types", refined, crystallized mental models to make categorization and further analysis easier. 

As you rightfully note, the Orlanthi skip rope with all of these - and realistically, so have most societies across the world, although the "Legal" (or "state") category is arguably a more recent addition, or if nothing else, has been fairly marginal until recently in the RW. 

Of course, you can question the basis for the categories to begin with.

Esrolia is an interesting case, because we sort of talk about it like it's this enduring polity, but Esrolia:10kGodesses makes it clear that it's more like a web of different city-states (with Nochet, and briefly other cities at times, as hegemon) and interlocked dynastic landowner dynamics. Arguably, then, "Esrolia" is in other words a country in the same way "Peloponnesos" was in Ancient Greece (although the Esrolians have been a lot better at maintaining some semblance of coherency it must be admitted). 

That's not to say that I disagree with the general observation that Heortling polities tend to be shorter-lived than the Dara Happan (or Esrolian) political-cultural-religious complex, it's just that in the case of the latter, what we arguably see is also a lot of "legacy"-usage. Dara Happa keeps reviving its empire with old forms and old titles, Nochet keeps getting rebuilt, but that doesn't necessarily imply political continuity, even if there is a demographic one (the degree to which there's been a religious/traditional continuity is the source of much discussion here). Compare and contrast China for example, which has some of the same thing going on through history - in the sense that we talk about "China" in the singular, even though there is both change and continuity going on (although in this case this is an externally imposed continuity, while the internal notion of continuity was expressed through different terms and ideas, eg. Mandate of Heaven, Bureaucratic Confucianism, Zhongguo, etc.). Or, hell, Ancient Sumer or Mesopotamia, which was by all acounts a highly dynamic region (politically, ethnically, etc.), but which we often gloss over as fairly static in casual speech.

Anyway, this turned into something it wasn't intended to be (and I hope it didn't sound condescending or anything, I think we pretty much agree), so let me just end it by saying that I am not trying to be contrarian over calling the Orlanthi "barbarian". It's a catchy term, and we sort of all get the associations that come with it, even if the Orlanthi also have ranks and ranks of bronze-shined hoplites and heavy cavalry and massive walled citadels. They're a... rowdier bunch. More inclined to solve problems at a lower societal level, more inclined to involve the local community members in said problem solving, and value individual and small-scale group autonomy more. That's not to say a Lodrili village Headman probably can't work independently of Dara Happan overlords in some matters, but it's a difference in practice and in the cultural ideals, imho. 

Basically, "barbarian" is kitschy, but fun.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, None said:

We're not using the same meaning for the word civilized here. I didn't mean civilized as based upon values but civilized as a 'barbarian culturure civilized culture' or a more complex with more specialsts (both in number and in variety) and probably older culture compared to a simpler more straightforward barbarian culture with more generalists than specialists.

Fine. Such specialization happens mostly in urban centers or at industrial places (major salt mines for instance). As the rural Pelorians or the rural Orlanthi go, there isn't that great a difference in specialization. Overall accounting might be stricter in Dara Happa, and areas with water regulation will have additional overseers, though as often from the ranks of the local population with a farmer job on the side.

The degree of urbanisation in Sartar or Esrolia is no less than in Dara Happa. Places like Aggar or Brolia differ, of course, but also from one another.

For comparison, the rural provinces of "civilized" Tanisor have half the urbanisation of Sartar in 1621, only the coastal lands of the Quinpolic League come close, owing to the fact that the primary production from fishing can be city-based (unlike similar scale agriculture or herding). Most of the Lunar satrapies have only 3/4 the urbanisation of Old Sartar (20%, although that includes the Lunar population of the New Temple - substracting that from the totals, there are still one in six Sartarites from the cities).

3 hours ago, None said:

But how did you conect that to the season? Dn't they go something, Sun Season, Earth Season, Dark Season, Storm Season, Sacred Time?

Exactly. With the Gods War culminating in the (Greater) Darkness (which should be the normal interpretation), your post-Gods War Storm Age would follow that sequence of seasons. And it is not that wrong to name the Gray Age the resurgence of the Storm people - the majority of the humans in the Unity Council are Heortlings, with Esrolians significantly fewer than the sum the Heortlings, and most other human populations significantly smaller than most Heortling groups.

3 hours ago, None said:

I always thought the Gods War was concidered over once Orlanth declared hmself the winner. With the Great Darknes being that separate horrible period no one (in game) want to talk about.

There are still plenty divine activities in the Greater Darkness. Sky River Titan at Snake Pipe Hollow and into Magasta's Pool (which appears only now), the victory over Sky Terror and the Lightbringer's Quest for Orlanth, the end of the Artmali (who may have resurged a bit after the Vadeli had been drowned), Pamalt's victory over Vovisibor, the migration of the Men-and-a-Half, Storm Bull and the Block, ...

True, there are a lot fewer  battles between non-Chaos enemies in this period, or at least we don't learn about them. The Dara Happans have Shargash destroying the world (and enemy gods) for its renewal. The end of the Vingkotling aggressions may have contributed to the onset of cooperation that led to Unity Battle and Unity Council.

[Eff]

1 minute ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This sounds very much in line with Max Weber's tripartite division of authority (or more specifically, authority legitimization). "Traditional" authority is based on family ties or ritualistic forms, "Charismatic" authority based on personal approval and abilities, and "Legal" authority is based on written (or arguably oral) law codes that are accessible to a significant amount of the population. 

Weber did not really intend to say that these categories exist undiluted in the real world per se, but rather they were what he called "ideal types", refined, crystallized mental models to make categorization and further analysis easier. 

As you rightfully note, the Orlanthi skip rope with all of these - and realistically, so have most societies across the world, although the "Legal" (or "state") category is arguably a more recent addition, or if nothing else, has been fairly marginal until recently in the RW. 

Of course, you can question the basis for the categories to begin with.

Esrolia is an interesting case, because we sort of talk about it like it's this enduring polity, but Esrolia:10kGodesses makes it clear that it's more like a web of different city-states (with Nochet, and briefly other cities at times, as hegemon) and interlocked dynastic landowner dynamics. Arguably, then, "Esrolia" is in other words a country in the same way "Peloponnesos" was in Ancient Greece (although the Esrolians have been a lot better at maintaining some semblance of coherency it must be admitted). 

That's not to say that I disagree with the general observation that Heortling polities tend to be shorter-lived than the Dara Happan (or Esrolian) political-cultural-religious complex, it's just that in the case of the latter, what we arguably see is also a lot of "legacy"-usage. Dara Happa keeps reviving its empire with old forms and old titles, Nochet keeps getting rebuilt, but that doesn't necessarily imply political continuity, even if there is a demographic one (the degree to which there's been a religious/traditional continuity is the source of much discussion here). Compare and contrast China for example, which has some of the same thing going on through history - in the sense that we talk about "China" in the singular, even though there is both change and continuity going on (although in this case this is an externally imposed continuity, while the internal notion of continuity was expressed through different terms and ideas, eg. Mandate of Heaven, Bureaucratic Confucianism, Zhongguo, etc.) 

Anyway, this turned into something it wasn't intended to be (and I hope it didn't sound condescending or anything, I think we pretty much agree), so let me just end it by saying that I am not trying to be contrarian over calling the Orlanthi "barbarian". It's a catchy term, and we sort of all get the associations that come with it, even if the Orlanthi also have ranks and ranks of bronze-shined hoplites and heavy cavalry and massive walled citadels. They're a... rowdier bunch. More inclined to solve problems at a lower societal level, more inclined to involve the local community members in said problem solving, and value individual and small-scale group autonomy more. That's not to say a Lodrili village Headman probably can't work independently of Dara Happan overlords in some matters, but it's a difference in practice and in the cultural ideals, imho. 

Basically, "barbarian" is kitschy, but fun.

Well, Esrolian city-states seem to be one step above tribes in terms of organization (or they have some way of organizing a lot of clans coherently into "super-tribes"), at least. 

Oh, yeah, "barbarian versus civilized" is a great way of thinking about the conflicts Orlanthi have with their neighbors in Peloria and Fronela and Ralios. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

30 minutes ago, Eff said:

Well, Esrolian city-states seem to be one step above tribes in terms of organization (or they have some way of organizing a lot of clans coherently into "super-tribes"), at least. 

Oh, yeah, "barbarian versus civilized" is a great way of thinking about the conflicts Orlanthi have with their neighbors in Peloria and Fronela and Ralios. 

Also, Orlanthis don't do great in cities. Their laws are designed for living outside of authority, while cities encourage diversity and a neutral judiciary process (i.e. not feuding).

Practically speaking, cities in Theyalan areas involve kings, although that's not an actual given for the existence of a city - only management of diverse origin is actually necessary, which could take any number of forms, such as a ruling Ring like in Prax with participants from all communities. Prax has dwarves on its Ring.

[Eff]

10 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Also, Orlanthis don't do great in cities. Their laws are designed for living outside of authority, while cities encourage diversity and a neutral judiciary process (i.e. not feuding).

Practically speaking, cities in Theyalan areas involve kings, although that's not an actual given for the existence of a city - only management of diverse origin is actually necessary, which could take any number of forms, such as a ruling Ring like in Prax with participants from all communities. Prax has dwarves on its Ring.

You can probably trace the high proportion of unfree people in Esrolia to the effects of trying to reconcile urban life with Orlanthi cultural customs. If freedom is something that's maintained by a continual state of low-level raiding to liquefy wealth...

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

Max Weber's

Whoo, thank the deities that be, I thought I saw  "Max Webster" there, and thought what does an obscure canadian rock band of no small chops from the 70’s have to say about HQ G starting settings and are they going to look sad and tired and just suck... and now I will not have  to worry about all that.
ETA just realized I had quoted Eff when I meant @Sir_Godspeed, Ah, well no harm done.

Once saw the boys open for Rush at Massey Hall! What a show!

Edited November 27, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

56 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Also, Orlanthis don't do great in cities. Their laws are designed for living outside of authority, while cities encourage diversity and a neutral judiciary process (i.e. not feuding).

Orlanthi tribes in a city may be a bit closer to Jets vs. Sharks than they are to Capulets vs. Montagues, but West Side Story is Romeo and Juliet nonetheless.

The tribal city confederations of Sartar create sufficient stability that there was just one case of Brexit - the Dinacoli left the Jonstown confederation in 1613 to join up with Alda-chur. The destruction of the Maboder in 1607, that of the Kultain 1619 and the replacement of the Dundealos by the Enstalos are the only other recorded changes in tribal composition of the cities in Sartar.

Nochet with its Enfranchised Houses and the numerous lesser client houses and clients' client houses is just a slightly less egalitarian assortment of clans in tribes, with multiple clienthood possible if I take Harald's (aka @jajagappa) Nochet campaign notes on rpg-geek and surrounding discussions as an alpha-version of what the Nochet Book will bring.

Tribalism inside cities, city-states or states with lots of bureaucratic deep state isn't anything unusual.

56 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Practically speaking, cities in Theyalan areas involve kings, although that's not an actual given for the existence of a city - only management of diverse origin is actually necessary, which could take any number of forms, such as a ruling Ring like in Prax with participants from all communities. Prax has dwarves on its Ring.

Orlanthi cities have a mayor, the elected leader of the city ring (on which there usually are the tribal kings of the constituent tribes, the guild leader, and high priests of the most important temples in the city). Since the constituent tribes often prefer not to elect one of the other tribal kings, the guild representatives may get a greater share in mayorhod than the kings.

[Qizilbashwoman]

45 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Orlanthi cities have a mayor, the elected leader of the city ring (on which there usually are the tribal kings of the constituent tribes, the guild leader, and high priests of the most important temples in the city). Since the constituent tribes often prefer not to elect one of the other tribal kings, the guild representatives may get a greater share in mayorhod than the kings.

I meant that we tend to see unelected leadership heading up things: King of Sartar, King of Dragon Pass, Queen of Dragon Pass, the local kings you mention. See: Esrolia.

Orlanthi society can be pretty decent at egalitarian dealings but things start to break down when stuff gets intercommunal without a Big Man to smash stuff with a stick. This is a side effect of Nobody can make you do nothing and Violence is always an option.

The solution is of course mayors and Rings, but somehow these Big Men always get involved. The solution is Harmony rune deities and handling conflict more formally

[Joerg]

55 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I meant that we tend to see unelected leadership heading up things: King of Sartar, King of Dragon Pass, Queen of Dragon Pass, the local kings you mention. See: Esrolia.

We are dealing with a world where the deities take an interest and push their favorite avatars into the limelight. Of course there will be a limit to elected positions.

Tribal kings are elected by the tribal moot, a body more sizeable than most urban populations. The Grandmothers in Esrolia are a lot more civilized than the Sartarite kings and mayors, but they are savage despots and autocrats, elected only if the previous Grandmother passes away without having arranged her succession, and by a small gremium of eligible successors.

Even Vingkotling dynasties relying on a descent from the Founder are voted into their job, by both the populace (through acclamation, or withholding that as a form of veto) and by the gods (see the rocky start of Salinarg's Princeship).

 

55 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Orlanthi society can be pretty decent at egalitarian dealings but things start to break down when stuff gets intercommunal without a Big Man to smash stuff with a stick. This is a side effect of Nobody can make you do nothing and Violence is always an option.

On the contrary, Orlanthi exposure to this violence made them think up organizations like the Unity Council or the Ring of Orlanthland.

There are Other Ways that are integral to Orlanthi society. Orlanth probably has married in a more diverse group of follwers to his camp than Ernalda ever had to her throne. It is Orlanth who brings in the Lightbringers, few of which have a working relationship with Ernalda. Both Elmal and Heler may have been wooing Ernalda before encountering and befriending Orlanth across a battlefield or duel ground, but Orlanth doesn't need any uxorial prompting to invite them to his tribe.

55 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

The solution is of course mayors and Rings, but somehow these Big Men always get involved. The solution is Harmony rune deities and handling conflict more formally

That's what makes Yelm's and Malkion's regimes so much more civilized than Ernalda's queendom?

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

That's what makes Yelm's and Malkion's regimes so much more civilized than Ernalda's queendom?

No, authoritarian rule is what lets them build cities on a pile of slaves and genocide. Ironically, Esrolia also thrives on authoritarian rule on a pile of slaves as well. The Lunar Way started out inspirationally, but then it just went all genocidal on a pile of slaves again.

i'd rather see the Theyalans work on their incipient Lightbringer Compact. A movement into diversity is what brought us the longhouse compacts of the New World such as the Dawn Confederacy (Mi'kmaq, Maliseet, Passamaquoddy, Abenaki, and Penobscot), Haudenosaunee Grand Council (Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, Seneca, and Tuscarora), and similar confederacies throughout the New World. (I live here, so they're most familiar to me).

American democracy was fundamentally affected by exposure to Iroquoian writings and practices.