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Cwitten

Shaman as an occupation

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Thanks @Joerg and @Akhôrahil , I didn't know about these changes between HQ1 and HQ2. I had occasionally noticed terminology problems before while skimming through HQ books, but I just filed in under "HQ is a narrative system and so they take a poetic license in describing things because there are no hard rules".

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

But then, a more fragmented mythical landscape of what we know to have survived into Time makes the catastrophe of the Greater Darkness and the patchwork nature of the shards salvaged by the Web of Arachne Solara more poignant.

Didn't know either about this Four Worlds Collision thing, thanks. And I agree it does make Arachne Solara's action more epic. I think it might also make the Great Compromise potentially even greater: just as entities coming from the God Plane had to agree to specific terms in order to keep existing eternally, entities coming from the Spirit Plane would also have had to agree to their own terms -- namely that they can exist alongside the Mundane World, act in Time, have limited interaction with mortals while staying separate, etc. It might open a can of worms, though, since you'd have to wonder why the Gods didn't take the same deal as the Spirits...

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

My approach is generally that a spirit is negotiated with, while a god is worshipped. It's a matter of approach.

I like that, it's catchy. But I think it's still just one of the consequences of the more fundamental difference that Spirits exist in Time while Gods don't -- you can't negotiate with something that can't change its mind.

Edited by lordabdul

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3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

My approach is generally that a spirit is negotiated with, while a god is worshipped. It's a matter of approach.

This is solid, I think. Add emulation to how a god is interacted with.

Back in HW/HQ1, the trichotomy of worship was Sacrifice/Ecstatic Rites/Veneration (the last for sorcerous entitities, such as the saints that existed back then).

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1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

I like that, it's catchy. But I think it's still just one of the consequences of the more fundamental difference that Spirits exist in Time while Gods don't -- you can't negotiate with something that can't change its mind.

I'm not so sure that most spirits can change their mind either - they tend to be notoriously one-track and single-minded. But what you can do is work to satisfy their (commonly narrow) interests and get their support in return. 

Although really, how different is this from sacrificing for effects or protection? That's also a kind of deal - you offer something up to the god in order to get something in return, and the god can accept or reject it.

Edited by Akhôrahil

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5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Although really, how different is this from sacrificing for effects or protection? That's also a kind of deal - you offer something up to the god in order to get something in return, and the god can accept or reject it.

Spirits are often single minded and obsessive, yeah, but they can still be negotiated with, so it means they do change their mind a bit (regarding the fine details of the agreement, mostly), even if they wouldn't obviously do a complete 180 turn-around.

Gods, however, seem to be a completely different beast to me. They're eternal and exist in this vastly different plane of existence that's quite harder to reach than the Spirit World. More importantly, you never really talk to them, and they never really agree to anything (except maybe for Divine Intervention). The only thing that happens is that, through worship, you gain access to stuff that would happen regardless in the God Plane. Whether you did all the ceremonies and worships to learn and cast Summon Earth Elemental or not, Ernalda's mythic primordial casting of that spell will still exist, and will still always happen. You don't get Ernalda to agree to let you do it, you instead take part in her doing it. At least that's my understanding. As such, you don't communicate with Gods any more than you communicate with a tree from which you want to take a fruit -- you're just making sure you built the ladder tall enough to reach it.

Edited by lordabdul
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I think smaller spirits have a small purview -- they are interested in only a very narrow slice of things, only the things they were already interested in.

Bigger spirits are equally "only interested in what they're already interested in," but their greater power gives them both more stuff to be interested in, and a broader grasp of what may be relevant to the things they're (already) interested in.

But if it's outside their spiritual identity, then it's as irrelevant to the spirit -- small or large -- as you or I would find it irrelevant how many grains of sand are on the 15th-largest beach in Madagascar.

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6 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Spirits are often single minded and obsessive, yeah, but they can still be negotiated with, so it means they do change their mind a bit (regarding the fine details of the agreement, mostly), even if they wouldn't obviously do a complete 180 turn-around.

Gods, however, seem to be a completely different beast to me. They're eternal and exist in this vastly different plane of existence that's quite harder to reach than the Spirit World. More importantly, you never really talk to them, and they never really agree to anything (except maybe for Divine Intervention). The only thing that happens is that, through worship, you gain access to stuff that would happen regardless in the God Plane. Whether you did all the ceremonies and worships to learn and cast Summon Earth Elemental or not, Ernalda's mythic primordial casting of that spell will still exist, and will still always happen. You don't get Ernalda to agree to let you do it, you instead take part in her doing it. At least that's my understanding. As such, you don't communicate with Gods any more than you communicate with a tree from which you want to take a fruit -- you're just making sure you built the ladder tall enough to reach it.

The difference between deities (that manifest only through rites or their Time-bound manifestations) and demigods (who act freely in the Inner World) appears to be the rules of the compromise. Demigods (and worshiped heroes) may have their Otherworld abode much like deities, usually manifesting as a star (e.g. Arkat, Errinoru, Sheng).

Entities like Sorana Tor and Rigtaina can be bargained with (that's what wooing effectively is - changing the distance beween the prospective partners).

 

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On 11/11/2019 at 8:15 PM, Cwitten said:

Is it just a simple snipping of the word assistant and strapping on the benefits of a full fledged shaman?

On 11/12/2019 at 7:47 AM, Bill the barbarian said:

Yes, at the beginning I was thinking avocation rather than occupation. I do like the comment that comes from Jeff via Scott that the rules do not cover the post generation occupations. That makes sense. 

Which got me thinking in my half doze during last night's ablutions, what would happen if at Shamanhood the PC replaced their Man (or Beast for Baboons et al) rune with the Spirit rune?

How would this affect play/rulings, or does it take the PC out of play?

 

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13 minutes ago, Rob Darvall said:

Which got me thinking in my half doze during last night's ablutions, what would happen if at Shamanhood the PC replaced their Man (or Beast for Baboons et al) rune with the Spirit rune?

How would this affect play/rulings, or does it take the PC out of play?

 

Per what reading i've done, not having a man rune would make you fully a spirit. HQ2 I believe had you take the spirit rune for things like following Kolat via the Seven Winds Society, but it didn't replace it. Runes seem to function a bit differently between systems though and so im not certain on how having both would function for a PC. 100% spirit and 0% man would make you a disembodied spirit that resides fully in the Spirit World for sure, but im not sure how partial percentages would fully work. As is, the PC's Fetch kind of functions as an entity with a spirit rune, as they reside in the Spirit World, and swap and partially possess you when you discorporate?

I can't personally envision a PC possessing the Spirit Rune in normal play, as it would drastically shift a lot about them.
(Also mechanically the man rune represents the ties to ancestor magic I believe, so replacing it as a follower of Daka Fal would be strange.)

Edit: (It seems prior it was a way to associate yourself with spirits/ the spirit world, while now its more of a literal form of the character.)

Edited by Cwitten

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2 hours ago, Cwitten said:

Per what reading i've done, not having a man rune would make you fully a spirit. HQ2 I believe had you take the spirit rune for things like following Kolat via the Seven Winds Society, but it didn't replace it. Runes seem to function a bit differently between systems though and so im not certain on how having both would function for a PC. 100% spirit and 0% man would make you a disembodied spirit that resides fully in the Spirit World for sure, but im not sure how partial percentages would fully work. As is, the PC's Fetch kind of functions as an entity with a spirit rune, as they reside in the Spirit World, and swap and partially possess you when you discorporate?

I can't personally envision a PC possessing the Spirit Rune in normal play, as it would drastically shift a lot about them.
(Also mechanically the man rune represents the ties to ancestor magic I believe, so replacing it as a follower of Daka Fal would be strange.)

Edit: (It seems prior it was a way to associate yourself with spirits/ the spirit world, while now its more of a literal form of the character.)

Ok, replace beast with spirit for human shamans and man with spirit for animals while beastmen get to choose.

I'm thinking that as the Shaman gets more and more dominant spirit rune they're less tied to the world. So yes, if they hit 100% they become spirits. I can see interesting game play possibilities there as the shaman tries desperately to maintain the last of their humanity.

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17 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

Which got me thinking in my half doze during last night's ablutions, what would happen if at Shamanhood the PC replaced their Man (or Beast for Baboons et al) rune with the Spirit rune?

Essentially, the fetch has the Spirit Rune and the shaman has the Man rune - but shamans are able to take advantage of this duality by swapping places. By adding the fetch, they add access to the spirit world, but they do not give up their Man rune. 

If they lost their Man Rune, they'd lose their body. Effectively they die. For some great shamans this may be little more than an inconvenience and a natural progression. 

But this may not be how it is represented within the RQG rules. The rules are approximations and abstractions. Access to the Spirit Rune may not be represented as a Spirit Rune %age, but by other game mechanics. 

Edited by davecake

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In general I think that the distinction between a Great Spirit and a God (or the sorcerous or mystic equivalent) is more a matter of approach than an inherent property of an entity, but this is not well understood. But outside of heroquesters, you still need to walk an established path to approach an entity, so most entities seem to be clearly Gods or Spirits in practice, as their is only one established path. But there are spirit cults for many entities that can be conventionally worshipped, usually under a different name, and something these traditions acknowledge each other, Storm Bull and Urox is the most well known, and there are several entities that combine a more theist approach and shamanic paths in the one (Waha, Yu-Kargzant, etc). A Yelm Imperator member interacts with Yelm as a God, a Golden Bow shaman interacts with him as a Great Spirit, it's still Yelm. A Kaargs Son interacts with Kygor Litor as a Goddess, a Shaman-Priestess interacts with her as a Great Spirit, and an ancestor, as well. Similar logic for Aeolian sorcerous interaction with Heortling gods, and to a limited extent mystic interactions where appropriate. 

But the distinction between Gods and Great Spirits seems a real one to most Gloranthans. Often where the same entity is approached both ways, they are known by different names, and even when the commonalities are realised it is rationalised away (seeing one as a 'sibling' rather than the same being). And there are plenty of deities with thousands of years of tradition via one approach, and no history at all of the other, or it is confined to a sub-cult that is seen as a different entity (eg Earth Witch). 

I was never a believer in a harsh split between the Four Worlds myself - I am very glad that this has been backed away from.

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15 hours ago, davecake said:

In general I think that the distinction between a Great Spirit and a God (or the sorcerous or mystic equivalent) is more a matter of approach than an inherent property of an entity, but this is not well understood. But outside of heroquesters, you still need to walk an established path to approach an entity, so most entities seem to be clearly Gods or Spirits in practice, as their is only one established path. But there are spirit cults for many entities that can be conventionally worshipped, usually under a different name, and something these traditions acknowledge each other, Storm Bull and Urox is the most well known, and there are several entities that combine a more theist approach and shamanic paths in the one (Waha, Yu-Kargzant, etc). A Yelm Imperator member interacts with Yelm as a God, a Golden Bow shaman interacts with him as a Great Spirit, it's still Yelm. A Kaargs Son interacts with Kygor Litor as a Goddess, a Shaman-Priestess interacts with her as a Great Spirit, and an ancestor, as well. Similar logic for Aeolian sorcerous interaction with Heortling gods, and to a limited extent mystic interactions where appropriate. 

But the distinction between Gods and Great Spirits seems a real one to most Gloranthans. Often where the same entity is approached both ways, they are known by different names, and even when the commonalities are realised it is rationalised away (seeing one as a 'sibling' rather than the same being). And there are plenty of deities with thousands of years of tradition via one approach, and no history at all of the other, or it is confined to a sub-cult that is seen as a different entity (eg Earth Witch). 

I was never a believer in a harsh split between the Four Worlds myself - I am very glad that this has been backed away from.

Pretty much agree with everything you said - and I'd like to add that the stark/systemic distinction between God and Spirit seems to me to be at least in part a product of the Theyelan culture complex (ie. the cultural basis that both Dragon Pass/Keathelan Orlanthi, Praxians and arguably trolls and others draw from).

At least when reading Revealed Mythologies, alternate schemae are presented when reading from the point of view of Vithelans, Pamaltelans and Westerners. We are somewhat familiar with Western/Malkioni schemae due to them sort-of bleeding over into the greater Dragon Pass region somewhat (Burtae, etc.), but it is undeniably a system with some fundamental differences in viewing different entities.

This goes moreso for Pamaltelans (or at least the Doraddi). It can be argued that these are just different names for the spirit-god-other categories, but that's not the sense I got when reading it at least. So basically, these aren't just objective, "in-itself" differences, but differences in views and approaches and so forth.

I won't derail this mostly rules-based discussion further with esoterica, but the logical conclusion of the above points is basically that RQG rules are influenced by the fact that they are mostly based on Theyelan cultural ideas. If RQG had been based on a wealth of lore on the Doraddi in Pamaltela, I can only think that some mechanics would just have been different.

Whether the designers agree with this or not, I don't know, and perhaps I have just been bedazzled by fancy writing and poetic formulation and there is actually an objective classification underlying everything - but if there is, I don't quite see it, nor do I generally think Gloranthans do, and I'm not sure having it would make the world a more interesting one.

Not sure what the moral here is. Don't be afraid to go off the beaten path if it's interesting to you, I guess.

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2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I won't derail this mostly rules-based discussion further with esoterica, but the logical conclusion of the above points is basically that RQG rules are influenced by the fact that they are mostly based on Theyelan cultural ideas. If RQG had been based on a wealth of lore on the Doraddi in Pamaltela, I can only think that some mechanics would just have been different.

To be fair, the Theyalan cultural ideas are among the most widespread in all of Glorantha - the Theyalans did a good job spreading these ideas all the way into Malkioni lands, and then the God Learners (the ones about non-Malkioni gods, not the ones perfecting the Malkioni creed) picked them up for their monomyth and carried them into regions where no Theyalan ever sailed before.

 There is no such wealth of lore on any other culture in Glorantha. The official Doraddi material gets less than 40 pages so far between the Guide and Revealed Mythologies, and while GaGoG might add as many again, that's about it. Jeff Okamoto's log of Sandy's RQ campaign gives an insight in where much of the original Pamaltela material came from, but much of that game is set in the mountain passes between Laskal and Jolar, a region that receives a few lines of text in the Guide, and is not typical for either neighboring culture. Other than Sandy's game and the stories about the Six-legged Empire, there was the Artmali epic which may never have been written up in any detail, and it isn't Doraddi, either. Doing a game in the East would have gone weird places, too...

I wonder whether Ralios or Fronela would have made a much different game, but to be honest, I doubt it. Less would have been said about the Lunars (who are mostly absent from RQG so far), and a little more about the Malkioni, but in that case the books might not be out yet, or would just begin to become available, as Malkionism needs lots of revision. No inheriting ancient texts, but extensive text analysis, game design decisions, and more such work-intensive problems.

 

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24 minutes ago, Joerg said:

To be fair, the Theyalan cultural ideas are among the most widespread in all of Glorantha - the Theyalans did a good job spreading these ideas all the way into Malkioni lands, and then the God Learners (the ones about non-Malkioni gods, not the ones perfecting the Malkioni creed) picked them up for their monomyth and carried them into regions where no Theyalan ever sailed before.

 There is no such wealth of lore on any other culture in Glorantha. The official Doraddi material gets less than 40 pages so far between the Guide and Revealed Mythologies, and while GaGoG might add as many again, that's about it. Jeff Okamoto's log of Sandy's RQ campaign gives an insight in where much of the original Pamaltela material came from, but much of that game is set in the mountain passes between Laskal and Jolar, a region that receives a few lines of text in the Guide, and is not typical for either neighboring culture. Other than Sandy's game and the stories about the Six-legged Empire, there was the Artmali epic which may never have been written up in any detail, and it isn't Doraddi, either. Doing a game in the East would have gone weird places, too...

This is all true, but not really the point. The point was to relativize the terms and categories we're presented with, so as to avoid presupposing the universal importance of these categories.

I am under no circumstance saying that the categories as they currently are are 'wrong' or 'bad' or that we should switch to some other viewpoint - just that they are what they are.

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I wonder whether Ralios or Fronela would have made a much different game, but to be honest, I doubt it. Less would have been said about the Lunars (who are mostly absent from RQG so far), and a little more about the Malkioni, but in that case the books might not be out yet, or would just begin to become available, as Malkionism needs lots of revision. No inheriting ancient texts, but extensive text analysis, game design decisions, and more such work-intensive problems.

A lot more focus on the sorcery and, in the case of Ralios, Arkatism?

(Also, at some point I would love to see how Ralian Orlanth-worship differs from Heortling.)

Edited by Akhôrahil

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4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

A lot more focus on the sorcery and, in the case of Ralios, Arkatism?

(Also, at some point I would love to see how Ralian Orlanth-worship differs from Heortling.)

Well, we're veering a bit far from the original topic, but considering that Alakoring came from Surkorion, it seems reasonable to think that the Orlanth Rex cult has a longer story here.

Personally I think the antagonism between Storm & Sun / Orlanth & Yelm is less pronounced. Partly because of the Solar origin of some of the Ralians, but also because of the more important antagonism from the Westerners/Malkioni.

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Well, we're veering a bit far from the original topic, but considering that Alakoring came from Surkorion, it seems reasonable to think that the Orlanth Rex cult has a longer story here.

Personally I think the antagonism between Storm & Sun / Orlanth & Yelm is less pronounced. Partly because of the Solar origin of some of the Ralians, but also because of the more important antagonism from the Westerners/Malkioni.

I'm endlessly interested in how the Ralians and their pantheon differ, especially since they have a full-fledged Ehilm co-bro-ing with Orlanth after being reborn and not just being a thane

(Yes I know now there's Only Yelmalio in Kerofinela)

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11 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

RQG rules are influenced by the fact that they are mostly based on Theyelan cultural ideas. If RQG had been based on a wealth of lore on the Doraddi in Pamaltela, I can only think that some mechanics would just have been different.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean, but it doesn't seem to me RQG really makes much of a distinction between spirits and deities rules-wise. IIRC RQG just describes spirit cults as the same way it describes Rune cults (although they say it would often be considered a sub-cult).

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13 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean, but it doesn't seem to me RQG really makes much of a distinction between spirits and deities rules-wise. IIRC RQG just describes spirit cults as the same way it describes Rune cults (although they say it would often be considered a sub-cult).

Rune magic is different from Spirit magic, isn't it? I'm not good on the actual rules, I've just noticed that discussing spirits versus deities is a topic that pops up with some regularity.

Edited by Sir_Godspeed

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14 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean, but it doesn't seem to me RQG really makes much of a distinction between spirits and deities rules-wise. IIRC RQG just describes spirit cults as the same way it describes Rune cults (although they say it would often be considered a sub-cult).

well for one thing you can shamanise without joining a cult in the first place. spirit interaction is individual.

1 minute ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Rune magic is different from Spirit magic, isn't it? I'm not good on the actual rules, I've just noticed that discussing spirits versus deities is a topic that pops up with some regularity.


^^^^

Edited by Qizilbashwoman

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I don't really see how, because Rune magic and Spirit magic are 2 different things, it necessarily means that Gods and Spirits must also be different things belonging to different worlds. In many RPG systems, melee and ranged combat have different rules, but it doesn't mean that guns and swords come from different universes.

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45 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I don't really see how, because Rune magic and Spirit magic are 2 different things, it necessarily means that Gods and Spirits must also be different things belonging to different worlds. In many RPG systems, melee and ranged combat have different rules, but it doesn't mean that guns and swords come from different universes.

Yet cults grant spirit magic through rune magic, and shamanic cults may grant it through either shamanic or rune magic, and shamans can teach it without cult membership.

As a materialist or an illuminate who can distance themselves from the immersion of both animists and theists (distance themselves in different ways), there is a systematic which applies to the flow of the magic in the greater scheme of things. RQG makes the distinction in terms of rune points and magic points, where rune points are gained from magic points via worship ceremonies. The RQ6/Mythras approach to theism has the MP conversion to theist spells in more personal ways. HW and HQ1 had Affinities and Feats for the theists, with Affinities not usable as active magic (unlike RQ Spirit/Battle Magic). while HQG allows breakout abilities from runes that work as active magical abilities. (I have no experience using HQ2 for Glorantha.)

Each rules set has its own conventions.

In RQG, Daka Fal worship uses rune magic for its core rites (Axis Mundi, Discorporation, Free Ghost,  Incarnate  Ancestor, Restore  Health,  Resurrect (one-use),  Spirit  Guardian, Spirit Melding, Summon Ancestor, Summon Specific Ancestor, Summon Spirit Teacher) and offers access to all common (Celestial Court) rune magic.

In Gloranthan meta-rules, I do wonder what deity the Daka Fal caster becomes when activating this rune magic - possibly food for a thread of its own.

While the cult allows and has shamans, a non-shaman Daka Fal cultist is a fairly well-equipped spirit speaker and even spirit master just using her rune magic. (Summon Spirit Teacher can grant a practitioner a temporary fetch, which, stacked with Extension, makes Discorporation (also stacked with Extension) much less risky.) A Daka Fal worshiper has a good reason to become assistant to a cult shaman, and to learn some shamanic abilities in the course, too, even without ever getting a permanent fetch. A family with a strong Daka Fal tradition (such as Duke Raus', or old Hrestoli families) may well have heirlooms (or regalia) which are rune magic matrices lending such aid.

Spirit cults in RQ3 or RQG also provide access to rune magic and Divine Intervention (limited though it may be).

Looking at the presentation of rune magic in combination with animism, I cannot find a clear distinction that rune magic is limited to theism and that spirit magic is limited to animism. They vary in relative importance, but both are present in both forms.

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8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:
9 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean, but it doesn't seem to me RQG really makes much of a distinction between spirits and deities rules-wise. IIRC RQG just describes spirit cults as the same way it describes Rune cults (although they say it would often be considered a sub-cult).

Rune magic is different from Spirit magic, isn't it? I'm not good on the actual rules, I've just noticed that discussing spirits versus deities is a topic that pops up with some regularity.

RQG has the old RQ2 concept of different levels of Deities, very roughly speaking, So, you have spirit Lords, Heroes, Demigods, deities and Greater Deities, although they are not explicitly defined like that.

There was an old Fanzine article about Spirit Lords, which was excellent, basically the idea was of Spirits that were quite powerful, so powerful enough to grant Rune Magic but not powerful or important enough to have fully-fledged cults, so were contacted by Shamans who had loose spirit Cults around them. 

RQG has examples of these, Frog Woman, River Horse and Black Fang.

Spirit Magic is the equivalent of RQ2 Battle Magic and the same as RQ3 Spirit Magic. It is not RQ6/Mythras Spirit Magic, which is a very different thing.

So, powerful Spirits can teach Spirit Magic, sometimes standard ones but sometimes cult special Spirit Magic, as well as some Rune Magic, again normally Cult Special magic with some Common Magic.

Heroes can normally teach their own special spells and often do so through Sub cults of more important deities, sometimes as Sub cults of several deities. So, Yelmalio and Yerlorna both learn Horse Archery from Kuschile, for example. 

7 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I don't really see how, because Rune magic and Spirit magic are 2 different things, it necessarily means that Gods and Spirits must also be different things belonging to different worlds. In many RPG systems, melee and ranged combat have different rules, but it doesn't mean that guns and swords come from different universes.

Hero Wars had the concept of a being being Animist, Theist or Sorcerous, which introduced a lot of problems, in my opinion. The idea of the Three (Four) Worlds colliding was a clumsy one, in my opinion, which didn't really reflect how RQ2/3 Gloranthan Deities worked.

I much prefer the idea that every Being from the God Time is just another person, in effect, the same as everyone else from the God Time. What benefits you get from following that Being are based on how you follow the Being. So, a shaman could contact a Being and learn magic from it, as Spirit Magic or Rune Magic, or could set up a Spirit Cult that teaches its followers the same magic; worshippers of a Being in a cult get taught skills, Spirit Magic and Rune Magic; Sorcerers might learn Sorcery Spells from a particular Being, or might listen to the Being's teachings and philosophy and gain insights from that.

The difference is in where the spells originate:

  • Spirit Magic is internal to the caster, they are things the caster can learn and use, but all the power comes from the caster.
  • Rune Magic is a part of the Deity's power that has been shared with the worshipper, using it doesn't cost Magic Points, although it does cost Rune Points sacrificed to the Deity.

Some of the confusion is caused because most deities or Beings that are contacted for worship grants some Spirit Magic and some Rune Magic. Lay Members can usually learn Spirit Magic, but cannot learn Rune Magic, because Rune Magic is not available to casual members of a cult. Only Initiates and higher can learn Rune Magic, but they can continue to learn Spirit Magic.

 

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